Visits to Hell and my thoughts about it

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Thank you for the information. It will be interesting to check it out.
 
Patrick2000 said:
Stories such as Angelica Zambrano
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I’ve heard of this one before. She claimed that in her vision, Jesus told her one of the reasons John Paul II was in hell was because he would not say that hell is real and that heaven exists. The problem is that this claim that JP2 wouldn’t say hell and heaven are real is provably false (e.g. see here). In my view, this is sufficient to dismiss her testimony.

Another thing to note is that you appeal to how a bunch of Protestants have had hell visions. But having actually looked at a number of these myself, I’ve noticed that if you examine them carefully, you will note contradictions in their descriptions of hell (or heaven–it’s not just hell people visit, but that seems to get more attention).

Here are some examples. Some say that there are no children in hell. Others say there are. Some say that hellfire is literal. Others say there is not literal fire in hell. Some describe the punishments as being “personalized” for what kind of sin was committed. Others describe it as being basically the same for everyone, even if the degree differs based on the severity of the sin.

And while I’ve been talking about hell here, let’s remember that a lot of them also visit heaven as well, and we see contradictions aplenty there also. And the doctrines given can vary also, and seem to overwhelmingly reflect the individual’s beliefs or that of their general culture.

And mind you, everything I’ve written has been limited to Protestant experiences. Here’s the thing: Catholics do this also! Various Catholics throughout the centuries have claimed to have visited or had visions of hell (or heaven), and much like the Protestant experiences confirm Protestant doctrines (or more specifically the doctrines of the group the person belongs to), so the Catholic ones confirm Catholic doctrines. There are some contemporary ones like Gloria Polo. If you’re going to accept these Protestant ones at face value, why not take the Catholic ones also?

Well, the answer there is obvious: You can’t take the Protestant ones as true and the Catholic ones as true because they contradict each other (actually, they contradict themselves–the Protestant ones don’t line up with one another… and to be honest, neither do the Catholic ones, though they line up better than those of the Protestants). But then how do you determine which ones are true and which ones are false? (assuming any are true–they might all be false!) You can’t based on the experiences alone, you have to figure out what the actual truth is from other sources, e.g. the Bible… but then that just makes the experiences totally worthless when it comes to ascertaining the truth, as you can only judge them as real or not if you already believe yourself to have the truth!

tl;dr The “visits to hell” have too many contradictions with one another to be considered a reliable indicator of anything, and one should avoid trying to base their beliefs on anything from them.
 
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It’s generally accepted that the vast majority of Don Bosco’s dreams/ visions were warnings of what might happen to students who didn’t change their ways, same as when St. Teresa of Avila saw the place in Hell reserved for her if she didn’t change her own ways.

To the extent thta Don Bosco might have had a private revelation where he saw the ultimate fate of some people (I understand there was one), he never revealed the identities.
 
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halogirl said:
I think He might have shown a possible outcome to encourage repentance
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That is how St. Bosco interpreted it as well. God wasn’t showing him the students’ fates, He was showing him the present state of their souls. The intent was to show them that their sins were known by God so that they would repent, and so that the Saint would be better able to help them.

If I remember the vision of Hell, the students he saw were ones that he either knew, or later determined, were dead. It was categorically different from his other dream/visions.
Tis_Bearself said:
To the extent thta Don Bosco might have had a private revelation where he saw the ultimate fate of some people (I understand there was one), he never revealed the identities.
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April 17, 1868:

The Road to Hell
 
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ProdglArchitect said:
April 17, 1868:

The Road to Hell
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Not sure why you’re posting this to me. I’m familiar with Don Bosco’s recorded visions. They were instrumental in helping me return to active practice in the Church. It is likely he had many other visions that were not recorded in writing and were at most verbally communicated to those who needed to know.

He never pronounced that someone was definitely in Hell after they died. The visions he had about people who were living, usually his students, were warnings for him to communicate appropriately or take other action to help prevent it.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
Not sure why you’re posting this to me. I’m familiar with Don Bosco’s recorded visions.
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I wasn’t posting it to you specifically, just referencing your post with the date since you said “(I understand there was one)”. It seemed like a good segue to link to the actual dream. I can remove the quote if you’d like.
 
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What kind of things was Teresa of Avila up to before she changed her ways do we know ? This is what would worry me if a st was worthy of hell how about regular people . This is why I don’t like private revelation it’s makes me fearful
 
They have interesting articles about the Saints and Catholic dogma (like here: Existence of Hell - The Letter From Beyond intro by Marian T. Horvat).

However, the more “heavy stuff” is not for the faint of heart. They are not sedevacantist 🙏 but hold some really extreme views (e.g. that PJPII is not a saint).

I’m not crazy about them and rarely check them out. If you really want to look at them, stick to the Saints’ pages. Otherwise, I don’t know.
 
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I would stay away –


Some for-instances:
“According to Catholic Culture , a reputable website which is faithful to the Magisterium, they found examples on TIA’s website of misleading articles and pictures with deceptive commentary.”

“The group is also known to refer to the popes in a disrespectful manner, such as referring to Pope Benedict XVI as Pope Ratzinger and Pope John Paul II as Pope Wojtyla.”
 
St. Teresa of Avila was a nun for quite a number of years before she was “converted.” Yes, she was Catholic, but the convent was very loose in that it allowed for an ample social life, nuns could leave to visit their families for extended periods, the wealthier nuns brought servants into the convent with them, nuns could socialize with men in the parlor, etc. Teresa was the life of the party. She confessed later to hardly even praying at all during much of that time. Thus, she had a conversion experience and soon thereafter left that convent to found one with a stricter observance.
 
Ah ok so she was a ‘career nun’ almost ? And kinda parting and not praying and doing good for others.
 
halogirl said:
This is why I don’t like private revelation it’s makes me fearful
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I’ve read some private revelations from the Virgin Mary where she said that most people go to purgatory, and the next amount go to hell and only a few go straight to heaven.So, as I look around and see, that seems about right , because most people aren’t reprobates, and most aren’t saints either.
 
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halogirl said:
What kind of things was Teresa of Avila up to before she changed her ways do we know ? This is what would worry me if a st was worthy of hell how about regular people . This is why I don’t like private revelation it’s makes me fearful
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We actually know what was she like before conversion and she speaks about it in her autobiography, look at chapter 32:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjADegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw1awJOmzXtGkA7fas9M2qI7
If my memmories are right she also writes in “Letters” about herself what was she like before conversion.

To be truthful, even a smallest sin in our eyes is always non-measurable offense to God and that is what sin is, “small” and “big” are big offense. His measure is not as our measure.
 
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As someone who was raised Catholic & later converted to a Protestant, I can tell you from a Scriptural point of view, anyone who claims to have visited Heaven or Hell & came back (aside from people in the Bible, like the apostles Paul & John) whatever they experienced is not valid. This includes the Protestant who wrote “90 Minutes in Heaven,” the Protestant pastor who wrote “23 minutes in Hell,” & those boys born in Protestant homes (Burpo & Malarkey) who claimed to have visited Heaven. The big give away is that some of their descriptions of Heaven & Hell don’t completely line up with their descriptions in Scripture. They all have details that somewhat conflict with it. Whenever someone’s “experience” conflicts with God’s word, the experience is faulty, since God’s word cannot be.
 
RaisedCatholic said:
As someone who was raised Catholic & later converted to a Protestant, I can tell you from a Scriptural point of view, anyone who claims to have visited Heaven or Hell & came back (aside from people in the Bible, like the apostles Paul & John) whatever they experienced is not valid. This includes the Protestant who wrote “90 Minutes in Heaven,” the Protestant pastor who wrote “23 minutes in Hell,” & those boys born in Protestant homes (Burpo & Malarkey) who claimed to have visited Heaven. The big give away is that some of their descriptions of Heaven & Hell don’t completely line up with their descriptions in Scripture. They all have details that somewhat conflict with it. Whenever someone’s “experience” conflicts with God’s word, the experience is faulty, since God’s word cannot be.
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"'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
Acts 2:17

And afterward, I will pour out My Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.
Joel 2:28
 
Techno2000 said:
"'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
Acts 2:17

And afterward, I will pour out My Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.
Joel 2:28
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In context, these passages were prophesizing & “partially” fulfilled at Pentecost & during the time of the Acts of the Apostles. And it doesn’t say anything about visiting Heaven & Hell. The remainder of this prophecy from Joel is yet-future.
 
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