Vocation problem

[TiggerS]

At Mass tonight (Saturday Vigil) we were told that by 2020 we will only have 22 ordained priests to serve a large Australian capital city and archdiocese, as well as a number of satellite full cities in the surrounds. It is probably fifteen years or more since I have seen a religious, male or female, in the two parishes to which I have belonged in that they served somewhere in the parish. Both are twinned parishes and cover massive areas. There is an urgent need for laity to be educated and motivated, undergo formation. We have only one priest in our twinned parish and he has very recently been shifted and other priests are asked to say our Masses. Priests that already have very heavy workloads. The parish is being run by lay people and we have no idea when a priest will be assigned to us, if then. We just dont know and must continue functioning in that mystery and unknowing and without discouragement. The Lord’s ways are not at all of necessity our ways, for sure.

It is over 15 years since I have known of a religious, male or female, that teach in our Catholic schools. All are laypeople including principals and vice principals. Most religious here nowadays (the ones we do have) are involved in some sort of social work and/or chaplaincy. I have laboured in a very poor parish beset by every kind of crime and social problem and now in an ‘upmarket’ type of parish that is quite affluent.
It would be hoped that with prayer and increased education of the laity, along with formation and motivation, religious life and the priesthood will be better understood and more religious and priestly vocations will result out of families and parishes. It is urgent, very urgent - and it has to be undertaken from parish level with value and respect for our own lay vocation and better understanding of it, coupled with respect and understanding of the priesthood and religious life and better understanding of these religious and priestly vocations. We need to really value each other from the heart despite, well, despite anything at all. We may need to rethink our vocations and call and just how we all really really are interrelated and connnected. Dependant on each other. And there is some truth in the old proverb “you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar”. We just naturally get argumentative, upset, if we are labouring in vinegar and pushing barrels uphill. Give us honey and things may start to happen that are constructive and positive.

Without formation of the laity and that includes families, where are our religious and priestly vocations to come from - short of miracles. And that formation must not only be looking inwards at the parish, but outwards to the world and embracing the world, which is intrinsic to the lay vocation - to be leaven in the world.

 

[JReducation]

I’m not arguing with you, but I want to say something about all of this. I speak here from experience as a former police officer, and mother of a grown child who went to school in one of the most affluent suburbs and in a downtown city school. There is more drug abuse, more sexual excess and suicide amongst the adolescents in suburbs than in the city. I guess I’ve lived in every kind of place in America by now, inner city and affluent suburb and small town, and there is this enormous spiritual crisis, IMO, in the more affluent places in the Catholic community.

I’ll bet you also find that poor folks are just in general more charitable. I now live in a place most would find ideal. I miss homeless people. No one believes that, but once you’ve sat on a bus benches in winter with them, and chatted them up on the city park lawn, and stepped around them on the way into the Basilica, you kind of come to feel like you are all part, not a-part. They were people we lived with, if you know what I mean. They were opportunities for Grace. There are a lot of Saints pushing around shopping carts.

I don’t want anyone giving any kind of comfort to those in need not doing it. I’d go back if I could. But here’s the thing: no one is more in need of spiritual care than the middle class. And no one gets less of that, I think.

I agree with one thing, we need a lot more religious vocations.

We’re not denying the needs of the middle class. What we’re saying is that it’s not our vocation to serve the middle class. Just as it’s not the vocation of a Jesuit to run a hospital, it’s not the vocation of many religious communities to live and work among any other population except the materially poor.

There are religious communities that do serve those who are materially comfortable and spiritually poor, but they are very few. They are not enough to go around. Most religious communities were not founded for this sector of the population. To live and serve among this sector is to betray the founder and the charism of the community.

Cistercians, Trappists and Benedictines are called to live away from the turbulence of daily life. To put them into that environment is inappropriate and detrimental to their vocation and their identity.

The Missionaries of Charity, Franciscans of the Renewal and other observant Franciscan communities do not belong living among the middle class, regardless of its spiritual needs. Neither are many other religious communities such as Salesians, Christian Brothers, Sisters of St. Joseph, Daughers of Charity, Vincentians. Their home is among the materially poor.

Then you have the missionary communities such as the Fathers of Mercy, Redemptorists, Oblates of Mary Immaculate. Their place is the mission field, the parish mission, the retreat center.

In come the social service communities and healthcare communities. They belong in hospitals, dispensaries, community centers, and other such places. These may serve the poor and the not so poor, but the must limit themselves to serving the sick.

As you keep going down the list of religious communities, each has a place and a mission. Those whose place and mission has been to educate the materially comfortable do not have enough numbers, because of the upward mobility of the Catholic community in the USA, Canada and many countries in Europe.

One great religious community for such schools is the Sisters of St Dominic. But there are not enough Sisters of St.Dominic. In fact, the largest community of women religious are the Daughters of Charity and they are not to live and work among the middle class. The largest community of men are the Franciscan Friars, who are also not to live and work among the middle class. The next large group of women religious are the Poor Clares with 20,000 nuns. But they are to be enclosed. Their greatest service to the Church is to live a life of praise and adoration.

The Sisters of St. Dominic seem to be growing again. Let’s see what happens and how far they can reach. There are also the Brothers of Mary, but as I said above. Once the friars and monks recovered their equilibrium, those men who would have become Marianists, are choosing to become friars and monks. Teaching was the only choice for highly educated male religious who were not priests. That’s no longer the case.

I think this is where lay associations of the faithful are going to be found, among the middle class. I understand the plight of the middle class. But we don’t have the number of religious communities to serve such a large population. If there are 20 religious communities in the USA that serve that population, it’s a lot. They were never needed here before. Most of them did not grow in numbers.

I wish I had an idea as to the solution, but I don’t. We have to ask the Holy Spirit to raise up new religious families to respond to these new situations.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[TiggerS]

Opus Dei, third orders, secular institutes etc. are all calls and vocations from God - its not something one joins, I dont think, only because it seems like a pretty good idea to do so (not to deny that the discernment/vocation journey could begin thus). The parish is also a community within The Church and we know that we have this call and vocation from God simply because we are baptized Catholics living in our particular parish. Parish community life has great importance and we need to work on it with conviction that we do have a call and vocation from God to do so - not just when at Mass or Confession or some gathering in the parish but as a part of, fabric, of our daily lives. As lay people we probably belong to a few communties in the general community and not necessarily Catholic communities - but we need to exist and function in these communties with a sense of mission to those communities. This will take education and formation and a sense that we are sent by God to these communities on mission and flowing out of our life as a parish community of fraternal charity.

 

[Norseman82]

Jesus told me my vocation is to love and be a victim but i could no longer understand His will and could no longer hold on in these pains.

Unless I’m misunderstanding your use of words, the words I have bolded wouild be a “red flag” to me. If someone were to tell me that their vocation was to “be a victim”, my first thought would be that he or she needed some psychological counseling, because that is not a psychologically healthy attitude.

You say Jesus told you this was your vocation. Have you sought spiritual direction on this? Remember, the Bible says to test every spirit, and on something as important as a lifelong vocation and something as provocative as what you have said (and the fact that you referred to an illness in a subsequent post) it is even MORE important, especially when you are only a teenager.

Additionally, where are you from? Your writing style suggests you are not from an English-speaking country, so culture may also come into play here as well in understanding what you are trying to communicate.

 

[iloveangels]

I’m not arguing with you, but I want to say something about all of this. I speak here from experience as a former police officer, and mother of a grown child who went to school in one of the most affluent suburbs and in a downtown city school. There is more drug abuse, more sexual excess and suicide amongst the adolescents in suburbs than in the city. I guess I’ve lived in every kind of place in America by now, inner city and affluent suburb and small town, and there is this enormous spiritual crisis, IMO, in the more affluent places in the Catholic community.

I’ll bet you also find that poor folks are just in general more charitable. I now live in a place most would find ideal. I miss homeless people. No one believes that, but once you’ve sat on a bus benches in winter with them, and chatted them up on the city park lawn, and stepped around them on the way into the Basilica, you kind of come to feel like you are all part, not a-part. They were people we lived with, if you know what I mean. They were opportunities for Grace. There are a lot of Saints pushing around shopping carts.

I don’t want anyone giving any kind of comfort to those in need not doing it. I’d go back if I could. But here’s the thing: no one is more in need of spiritual care than the middle class. And no one gets less of that, I think.

I agree with one thing, we need a lot more religious vocations.

For the most part, I can’t disagree with you about the middle class, Julia. I taught in several different schools, both public and private, so I’ve worked with groups exclusively made of the different classes from doctors’ and lawyers’ kids to hispanic migrant workers to special ed students. I also was raised in a lower class and have moved across a couple of boundaries myself, so people from different social classes are my friends.

Something shifted dramatically in the late 20th century. The cultural landscape has all changed. Middle class children really suffer now. If they’re not aborted in the first place (which is a big if), they spend their time with other children at day-care centers, schools and other institutions where they are jammed together like little refugees. Adults work a great deal and many children don’t talk to their parents. As a former teacher I know this. Some children, many children, feel completely unloved, like they’re a burden to their parents because their parents treat them like things or after-thoughts. Many people get married now, not to start a family life, but to satisfy their own drives, and when those dictates change, as they tend to do, the marriage is over. And then they remarry (or more commonly, re-shack-up) and the kids always suffer the most, always.

I know that many people have remarked that the latest generation, now just becoming adult, seems to be deeper and more thoughtful than previous generations. I don’t doubt it. I personally believe it’s because they’ve suffered more than most kids from the last couple of generations before them did. This same young generation now seems to value community and belonging more than previous ones, for the same reason. Many of them fear abandonment–very much. For this reason, perhaps they are more interested in religious life, and in fact we are seeing an uptick in religious life in this country in some of the more stable and conservative orders, congregations, institutes etc. I’m not surprised. It’s good. Grace builds on nature.

 

[iloveangels]

When I first converted and found out there were 3rd Orders, I was really interested. Someone suggested Opus Dei and I looked at their website (this is like 15 years ago now) and it sounded just like your post. That was when I looked into Discalced Carmelites, too. Anyway, maybe you should check into them, I think they are already doing what you are describing. I was looking for something more “religious,” I guess I’d say now, after reading this thread.

I’m already Secular Franciscan. But there’s a difference between Franciscan spirituality and the spirituality of a parish family Catholic. This doesn’t get talked about much, I realize, but it’s true. That doesn’t change the fact that there are plenty of things that Catholics could get involved in. As TiggerS and I were discussing earlier, there are some strong hangover attitudes from older times that get in the way of people feeling that they are free to do these things. People generally tend to think that things should be done for them, like it’s not their department or something like that.

Well, the guy who wants all the control is a young guy and the one who pretty much let the Parish run itself was an old guy. I’m thinking once the young guy gets older, he’ll learn we really don’t need a priest hanging around to look at Jesus and say the Divine Mercy Chaplet!

Hard telling, Julia. Every parish is different. I would give the priest the benefit of the doubt though. He probably knows a lot more than he’s saying.

I used to teach school, and teachers find out the most amazing things. Of course you never divulge these things for ethical and professional reasons, not to mention the fact that you really end up really caring about your students and their families, pretty much all of them warts and all, and wouldn’t want to embarrass or hurt them in your wildest nightmares. It’s all part of being a teacher. I think being a priest might be similar in a way. Just a guess.

 

[iloveangels]

Just bringing in religious to run you parish school is not going to restore the sense of family that Catholics once shared. If truth be told, the religious in those parishes of the Catholic immigrants were not very involved in the daily life of the parish. The teaching sisters and teaching brothers ran the schools and maybe ran the CCD program and disappeared into their religious houses somewhere on the parish campus.

…

This is true. If religious are brought in to try to revitalize community in a parish, the way the Catholic culture is set up now, many people will simply once again do the departmentalization thing that TiggerS and I were talking about and confer the leadership and responsibility onto the religious, while expecting to passively follow. And then when the religious don’t deliver, because they simply can’t for all kinds of reasons, the laity will think it’s “their fault.”

This is not how it has to work. The laity have to re-learn how to have a parish life for themselves, how to live a Christian life for themselves. Somehow it has to come around to that, so it can happen. This is a totally new enterprise for many of the laity. I believe that this is one of the real and faithful implementation steps of Vatican 2 (as opposed to some of the other stuff that was imposed on the laity and has since gone away because it wasn’t do-able, didn’t make sense, was out in left field, etc).

Mrs. Murphy has to get out her chicken soup pot again, and she has to realize that her kindness can be blended with a prayer and become holy for everyone’s benefit. There is one more crucial piece to this: It’s not about talking about getting out the pot; it’s about DOING it. This is major in contemporary Catholic life. There’s several hundred times more talking than doing. It’s a big, big problem, and most assuredly directly connected with the passive following thing and the departmentalization of duties thing.

I don’t know that the internet has hurt this, because at least people are thinking about religion more when they view CAF and maybe that has some effect in the long run, but I can’t say I have any sort of proof that it’s helped the doing much either.

 

[iloveangels]

I believe this is the way to go. What the laity is hungry for is actually something that most have never experienced, because they’re too young. I believe that they are hungry for that Catholic community with which they not only celebrated the Eucharist on Sundays, but with which they shared their lives between Sundays. This was much easier in the days of Catholic ghettos in America or the old Catholic villages of Europe. Today, with the “Suburban Diaspora” these communities on longer exist. People have to find new methods to recover an “old” way of life.

…

When Vatican II said, “Enough” and the Code of Canon Law demanded that the fraternal orders recover their former way of life, those men who would have entered teaching and nursing communities now saw possibilities for themselves as friars and monks. They could bring their gifts to the table and be accepted as equals and they were not boxed into classrooms, which was the only place where they were allowed to show that they could think and had intelligence. This drained the Catholic high schools of brothers.

There’s one other very important thing in here. Notice that the activity of the laity described here in the old parishes doesn’t involve a lot of proof-texting or pretending to be an expert on speculative theology and the like.

Rather, it involves soup making, coaching sports, cookie making, neighborly visiting to make sure somebody’s okay, all that sort of thing.

The proof-texting thing and all of that contention stuff is an evolution from the troubles of Vatican 2 and all the books and theories that were tried out, and it really has to simmer down to a minor key and these other more practical activities need to come to the fore, but in many ways not just these. Laypeople now are very well-educated and capable. They are also very inventive, particularly in the USA, and I’m sure they can work together to fix some of these problems in faithful Catholic ways.

On the plus side, I have noticed lately that a lot of parishes seem to be starting seminars or classes around videos and books. Many more than has been the case for years. The Church has put the emphasis on evangelization of Catholics. This puts members of the laity in the same room and relationships form. Maybe this is the beginning of something new.

 

[iloveangels]

Unless I’m misunderstanding your use of words, the words I have bolded wouild be a “red flag” to me. If someone were to tell me that their vocation was to “be a victim”, my first thought would be that he or she needed some psychological counseling, because that is not a psychologically healthy attitude.

You say Jesus told you this was your vocation. Have you sought spiritual direction on this? Remember, the Bible says to test every spirit, and on something as important as a lifelong vocation and something as provocative as what you have said (and the fact that you referred to an illness in a subsequent post) it is even MORE important, especially when you are only a teenager.

Additionally, where are you from? Your writing style suggests you are not from an English-speaking country, so culture may also come into play here as well in understanding what you are trying to communicate.

I’m wondering the same myself, Norseman, particularly about the country FraLeones is in. I know a man who is the father of a priest, a very responsible adult man, an American native, but he talks about the “crowns” people receive in heaven and for the life of me, I can’t figure out what he’s talking about. He’s a cradle catholic and I think it’s just some kind of ethnic devotional talk that cradle catholics from eastern Europe or something use. There’s a lot of this stuff around. Mind you, I’m not always understood either, being an old ex-protestant with southwestern American roots. Cradle catholics sometimes look at me like I have two heads, even when I’ve said nothing technically or theologically wrong. This is a sensibility thing.

BTW, I don’t comprehend some devotions like the Infant of Prague either. Or a lot of the stuff around Fatima. But the Church is very rich and there’s something for everyone. It’s all good.

 

[iloveangels]

Opus Dei, third orders, secular institutes etc. are all calls and vocations from God - its not something one joins, I dont think, only because it seems like a pretty good idea to do so (not to deny that the discernment/vocation journey could begin thus). The parish is also a community within The Church and we know that we have this call and vocation from God simply because we are baptized Catholics living in our particular parish. Parish community life has great importance and we need to work on it with conviction that we do have a call and vocation from God to do so - not just when at Mass or Confession or some gathering in the parish but as a part of, fabric, of our daily lives. As lay people we probably belong to a few communties in the general community and not necessarily Catholic communities - but we need to exist and function in these communties with a sense of mission to those communities. This will take education and formation and a sense that we are sent by God to these communities on mission and flowing out of our life as a parish community of fraternal charity.

TiggerS,

I am very sure that you are correct about the fact that there is a vocation to family life in a parish without joining a third order or other sort of similar life commitment, yes. And there are many people with this vocation to family life in the parish, probably more than all the other vocations combined. This is the new realization after Vatican 2. These people really, really matter just as much as everyone else, and there have to be paths for them to take to live out their Christian life fruitfully and fully in parish life. And honestly, this most assuredly could include being a liturgical minister and so on, but it most assuredly doesn’t stop there.

You talk about belonging to other general communities as missions. I think this is important, yes. But there has to be more to it than that. You’re not only “road warriors” (used loosely), but you need a spiritual home, a community of support and prayer to fuel you up and provide a continual backdrop of faith and prayer. Your parish (in a wide sense meaning the people who are around there rooting for each other) is meant to be that and it has to run all the time in the lives of people, not just an hour a day or so.

 

[iloveangels]

TiggerS,

Sorry, I think I used an American colloquialism that may have more than one meaning.

“Cheering each other on” and “praying for one another” is what I meant by “rooting for each other.” I read somewhere that that’s not a universally neutral word. Even though it’s sort of a neutral thow-away slang word in American english. Now it’s time for me to ask forgiveness for my ethnic peculiarities…. Sorry.

Note to iloveangels: CAF is international.

The editing window on the previous post closed on me and I didn’t have time to fix it.

 

[TiggerS]

Iloveangels:

We are very much in agreement.

QUOTING TIGGERS:
The parish is also a community within The Church and we know that we have this call and vocation from God simply because we are baptized Catholics living in our particular parish. Parish community life has great importance and we need to work on it with conviction that we do have a call and vocation from God to do so - not just when at Mass or Confession or some gathering in the parish but as a part of, fabric, of our daily lives. As lay people we probably belong to a few communties in the general community and not necessarily Catholic communities - but we need to exist and function in these communties with a sense of mission to those communities. This will take education and formation and a sense that we are sent by God to these communities on mission and flowing out of our life as a parish

This is what I meant by the above. That we need to have a mindset or concept change. Our parish communities are living communities within The Church. Not just a place where we attend Mass and Confession, social functions etc. We have our recreation times in that community. It is a community of fraternal charity and ideally with formation and education programs - a true community in the very best sense of the word. Our bond is not that we belong to the same religious order, institute, organization and/or under the same roof - rather that we live Catholic in the same neighbourhood and parish. Our neighbourhood is our ‘same roof’. We owe obedience to our leadership in the parish. We do not vow obedience as with those that do so vow, but we are called to obedience to rightful superiors in all that is not sinful “all authority comes from God” said St. Paul. Jesus has told us to “give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s” And God has gifted us with a call to our parish. We are also called to a spirit of poverty and chastity. We are not in the state of perfection, but we are called to the way of perfection. Our constitution and rule of life is The Gospel.

We have been called to the Community of The Parish in the lay state. As laity we also have a call to embrace the world and to live within the world as leaven. As people of The Gospel. Hence we may belong to other communities that are within the general community. Our workplace for example is a community within the general community. I used to bless myself before I headed out and say “I am off to Galillee” which was largely pagan. Meaning by this that I am heading out into the general community and back in those days my neighbourhood was beset by almost every crime and social problem in the book and I was very active in it but not as part of it. And I have always loved what the angel said to Mary Magdalen to tell the apostles (Matthew 28)“He goes before you into Galillee”. Jesus foretells this in Matthew 26 " [32] But after I shall be risen again, I will go before you into Galilee."

Jesus and His apostles, disciples, did not undertake some specific work - they strived to meet the needs of any person they came across or approached them. They lived The Gospel as they travelled. We laity ‘travel’ too - into the general community. Our parish is our ‘base’ just as Jesus in His own lifetime had a ‘base’ in Capernaum.

But all this in the main is going to take an undoing of conditioning that the parish is a community that we attend now and then - to a mindset that the parish is our actual community to which God calls us. Our apostolate or mission is not to some specific work of Mercy etc. as with active religious orders etc. Our apostolate is to be people of The Gospel, Catholics, at all times and in all places no matter where we may be including belonging to other communties in the general community. Ours is a demanding and can be a very difficult apostolate. We are not called OUT of the world for the world. Rather we are called INTO the world for the world. We are called to embrace the world for the sake of the world. We are laity with a vocation and call to the lay state.

All that may sound ideal. And if I scoff and dismiss it all as an ideal, then nothing is going to change. It is an ideal and one we need to have as our goal - to take that path. It is not going to be an easy task in all probability. We can be assured that with our vocation comes all the Grace necessary to live it to great holiness if we collaborate with those Grace. We need to start somewhere. And to my mind a place to start is to change my own thinking about the parish and to advocate that thinking. We need to develop a mindset of the great dignity and call, importance to Jesus and His Church, of the call and vocation to the laity. It is a very real call and vocation and as such it has great dignity.

 

[iloveangels]

I see what you’re saying and I agree with the principle, if you think of parishes as being something much richer and more like the old neighborhoods that Br. JR was talking about. And as long as the laity are not just passively following along behind limply.

However, here in the US, there is much disarray around territorial parishes since the disruptions of Vatican II. In the US, people also move their households very frequently. I know I have often attended mass at a number of parishes, not just my territorial parish.

Your idea would say stay at the same parish no matter what and form a community there, yes? We’re very far in the US from that being workable on a practical level, unfortunately. There are formidable social obstacles involving parish size, group dynamics, all kinds of things. Perhaps a community of sub-communities could work, with people belonging to both levels; this is actually rather more like the natural pattern that used to exist based on family or neighborhood identity.

Of course those old linkages that pertain to family and neighborhood really are gone in the US. We don’t have them anymore. Many are the Catholics whose other family members aren’t Catholic; many are the people who don’t know any of their neighbors, or knowing them, don’t know anything about their religious beliefs. Religion is a very sensitive topic in our society.

The Catholic population in the US is nominally about 25% tops at any given time, although more than 1/2 of those don’t practice their faith in any fashion at all. Roughly 10% of the American population identifies itself as ex-Catholic when asked.

 

[TiggerS]

I see what you’re saying and I agree with the principle, if you think of parishes as being something much richer and more like the old neighborhoods that Br. JR was talking about. And as long as the laity are not just passively following along behind limply.

However, here in the US, there is much disarray around territorial parishes since the disruptions of Vatican II. In the US, people also move their households very frequently. I know I have often attended mass at a number of parishes, not just my territorial parish.

Your idea would say stay at the same parish no matter what and form a community there, yes? We’re very far in the US from that being workable on a practical level, unfortunately. There are formidable social obstacles.

I certainly do not have an answer for every situation - it would be up to those that are in difficult situations to come up with their own responses to a difficult situation prayerfully. Some of what I have written has been immediate thoughts - I often tend to think “on my feet” meaning, in this instance, as I type. Certainly it has always been a major concept of mine to remain in the same parish and to look upon my lay vocation with seriousness and application and an active sense of call and vocation.

I was responding to what you had to say here:

You talk about belonging to other general communities as missions. I think this is important, yes. But there has to be more to it than that. You’re not only “road warriors” (used loosely), but you need a spiritual home, a community of support and prayer to fuel you up and provide a continual backdrop of faith and prayer. Your parish (in a wide sense meaning the people who are around there rooting for each other) is meant to be that and it has to run all the time in the lives of people, not just an hour a day or so.

What I am advocating is a change of mindset about the parish that it is not indeed “just an hour a day or so” but that it runs “all the time in the lives of people” and with a very active sense of call and vocation. Often the lay vocation can be looked upon rather dismissively - but if one reads carefully the document on the Apostolate of The Laity which includes a section on The Vocation of The Laity to The Apostolate, then thinking just has to change. Especially if this document is read with the same type of seriousness and application that religious refer to documents on religious life. We are intended to read that document in that spirit - with seriousness and application. And the word “apostolate” is used, not “ministry”. Brother RJ had some excellent and clearly defining comments to make about these terms some posts back.

 

[iloveangels]

I certainly do not have an answer for every situation - it would be up to those that are in difficult situations to come up with their own responses to a difficult situation prayerfully. Some of what I have written has been immediate thoughts - I often tend to think “on my feet” meaning, in this instance, as I type. Certainly it has always been a major concept of mine to remain in the same parish and to look upon my lay vocation with seriousness and application and an active sense of call and vocation.

I was responding to what you had to say here:

What I am advocating is a change of mindset about the parish that it is not indeed “just an hour a day or so” but that it runs “all the time in the lives of people” and with a very active sense of call and vocation. Often the lay vocation can be looked upon rather dismissively - but if one reads carefully the document on the Apostolate of The Laity which includes a section on The Vocation of The Laity to The Apostolate, then thinking just has to change. Especially if this document is read with the same type of seriousness and application that religious refer to documents on religious life. We are intended to read that document in that spirit - with seriousness and application. And the word “apostolate” is used, not “ministry”. Brother RJ had some excellent and clearly defining comments to make about these terms some posts back.

I absolutely do think that this is important. Laypeople will have to take the lead though, to bring this to fruition. I don’t know how that movement from following to leading might happen. That’s the problem.

Yes, the laity have historically been treated in a very dismissive fashion, almost as if they didn’t count at all many times. Unfortunately, they’ve internalized that. And they don’t know a) that they do count, and b) that their vocation is not to be “little priests” or “little religious.” They have a different charism, built around family life, work, service to the world and membership in dynamic Christian communities. The juridical format of these Christian communities is, yes, the parish. But the parish, at least here, currently doesn’t function that way for most people. It’s a shame and maybe it can be fixed but that’s how it is now.

The Catholic church here, in general (across parishes), is rather famed for its lack of friendliness. People drift in an out and no-one knows whether you showed up or not. It’s something that American Catholics are quite used to. It’s like a big institution where people are handled as they stand in line. You don’t know the people you sit beside in mass, and many people feel that don’t want to know them. These kinds of things are huge problems.

 

[TiggerS]

I see what you’re saying and I agree with the principle, if you think of parishes as being something much richer and more like the old neighborhoods that Br. JR was talking about. And as long as the laity are not just passively following along behind limply.

However, here in the US, there is much disarray around territorial parishes since the disruptions of Vatican II. In the US, people also move their households very frequently. I know I have often attended mass at a number of parishes, not just my territorial parish.

Your idea would say stay at the same parish no matter what and form a community there, yes? We’re very far in the US from that being workable on a practical level, unfortunately. There are formidable social obstacles involving parish size, group dynamics, all kinds of things. Perhaps a community of sub-communities could work, with people belonging to both levels; this is actually rather more like the natural pattern that used to exist based on family or neighborhood identity.

Of course those old linkages that pertain to family and neighborhood really are gone in the US. We don’t have them anymore. Many are the Catholics whose other family members aren’t Catholic; many are the people who don’t know any of their neighbors, or knowing them, don’t know anything about their religious beliefs. Religion is a very sensitive topic in our society.

The Catholic population in the US is nominally about 25% tops at any given time, although more than 1/2 of those don’t practice their faith in any fashion at all. Roughly 10% of the American population identifies itself as ex-Catholic when asked.

My experience pre V2 was that there was little, if indeed any, formation of any kind in the parish. We did have missions usually once yearly usually given by a Passionist priest. But they were very much hell and damnation type of missions and what would happen to us if we did not obey The Church. Our understanding of Catholicism was very poor. Fortunately I was educated in college by Dominican nuns who taught me to research, ponder and conclude. Pre V2, and my experience only, was that within the parish were cliques that had exclusive membership. There was never a sense of welcome to strangers in the parish.

I recall one mission priest telling us primary school children this ditto "Whenever I pass a Church, I will always pay a visit, so that when I am dead and carried in, Our Lord wont say “Who is it?”. That impacted me dreadfully as a child. Back pre V2 ours was a religion of fear most often.

On the positive side, certainly Catholic families would mix with Catholic families in the same clique. Catholic primary school run by nuns as the teachrtd were either in a parish or nearby. But to mix with non Catholics was a major “frown upon”. If one could not afford a Catholic College education which back then was run by nuns and with nuns as teachers (for girls) and rather expensive, and one had to go to a state school - this was a terrible state of affairs too. Something to be ashamed of. If I had not got a scholarship to a Catholic Dominican College, I would have had to go to a state school. My parents were very poor with five children.

As I said, there were positives and negatives about parishes pre V2. Certainly for my part, I have no desire to return to the past. I reflect on the past and conclude.

One of the reasons, again to my experience only, people were closer pre V2 in parishes was that we were not as mobile. Many had no vehicle and quite a few had no telephone. Entertainment was not as it is today with such a variety of choices at reasonable cost - so people looked to each other for recreation. We tended to do so in Cathoilic circles because mixing with non Catholics was so much frowned upon.

 

[iloveangels]

My experience pre V2 was that there was little, if indeed any, formation of any kind in the parish.

There was formation in the family, and in school (sort of–if you can count some of that as formation). We had our Baltimore Catechism here.
All of the old sources of formation are almost completely missing now, up until just lately. The parishes here seem to be taking Popes Benedict and JP2 seriously now by starting study groups. They need to; everyone is getting worried. We’re in a bad way.

We did have missions usually once yearly usually given by a Passionist priest. But they were very much hell and damnation type of missions and what would happen to us if we did not obey The Church. Our understanding of Catholicism was very poor. Fortunately I was educated in college by Dominican nuns who taught me to research, ponder and conclude. Pre V2, and my experience only, was that within the parish were cliques that had exclusive membership. There was never a sense of welcome to strangers in the parish.

That attitude of entitlement by privileged groups still exists, yes. Outsiders are not welcome except in a novelty sort of way. But not really.
My grandfather was a protestant minister, so I know about hellfire and damnation preaching, but it was in perspective because it was a small group, we all knew each other and knew what we were about.

I recall one mission priest telling us primary school children this ditto "Whenever I pass a Church, I will always pay a visit, so that when I am dead and carried in, Our Lord wont say “Who is it?”. That impacted me dreadfully as a child. Back pre V2 ours was a religion of fear most often.

Yes, I’m a convert and sometimes the soft and sloppy stuff post-Vatican 2 gets to me honestly. But then I realize that some of these people had the stuffing scared out of them as children and they don’t understand their religion any better than that, and then I’m really sorry. It’s not supposed to be like that. Such things, as not caring whether you scare the children for life or not, aren’t Christian and they certainly shouldn’t be Catholic.

On the positive side, certainly Catholic families would mix with Catholic families in the same clique. Catholic primary school run by nuns as the teachrtd were either in a parish or nearby. But to mix with non Catholics was a major “frown upon”. If one could not afford a Catholic College education which back then was run with nuns as teachers (for girle) and rather expensive, and one had to go to a state school - this was a terrible state of affairs too. Something to be ashamed of.
As I said, there were positives and negatives about parishes pre V2. Certainly for my part, I have no desire to return to the past. I reflect on the past and conclude.

I don’t desire to return to the past either. The seeds of the troubles we have were sown and germinated in the past. We have to do better. This what these new evangelism programs are about. And of course, what the communities we’ve been discussing are about. Riching up the parish, etc.

 

[joanofarc2008]

My last two parishes were both run by the Franciscans. One was in a very middle class area and had a school. The other is in a very poor area. I do have to say that the Franciscan mission is more alive in the second as it seems to be more of the Franciscan mission. This is not to take away from the other parish - but I do believe the other parish would be good with good diocesan priests. It just wouldn’t be Franciscan. However, I really shouldn’t say that because it would still have the SFO Fraternity attached to it whereas the poor parish has none.

 

[TiggerS]

And as long as the laity are not just passively following along behind limply.

If the above is the situation, then it is time to reflect on possibilities as to why it is happening and what could be done about it on an action with review process. Mindsets and conditioning is not going to happen overnight. It takes a long time for conditioning to occur and it will probably take a longer time to undo that conditioning and replace it with the new as a conditioned mindset.
We need to reflect on, to my mind, our own mindset and what can be done about it if not happy with it. We need to discuss laity and the parish in new ways but with a common universal concept and goal about the parish - and not be always critical with nothing constructive to offer. We have a universal concept and goal about laity in the Document “The Apostolate of The Laity” found here We need to struggle against the mindset that we are “just laity”. We have an important document on the laith in The Apostolate of The Laity - found here :vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651118_apostolicam-actuositatem_en.html
And if its cut and pasted into Word one can highlight and make notes to one’s heart;s content.
Laity have an important vocation and call at the heart of The Church as it is God’s desire that all should be saved. And we are called INTO the world for the world. The heart of The Church is the Heart of The Lord and is simply Love - and Love can be a difficult call as we probably all know and experience.
If we are going to be dismissed as “just laity” then the mindset develops that I am “just laity” and dont have to do or think anything at all - just go to Mass on Sunday and to Confession at least once yearly and I am home and hosed … no worries! And that tells me how the mindset developed in the first place long before V2.

 

[iloveangels]

My last two parishes were both run by the Franciscans. One was in a very middle class area and had a school. The other is in a very poor area. I do have to say that the Franciscan mission is more alive in the second as it seems to be more of the Franciscan mission. This is not to take away from the other parish - but I do believe the other parish would be good with good diocesan priests. It just wouldn’t be Franciscan. However, I really shouldn’t say that because it would still have the SFO Fraternity attached to it whereas the poor parish has none.

Yes, that’s probably an artifact of the recent past too. In the US, 2 things.

1. SFO fraternities in most parts of the country were founded early to mid-20th century and they were founded in middle class parishes. Most of the people in them had very poor formation and this was before the new rule in 1978. The fraternities were often treated like prayer groups or sodalities in those days. [That’s changed since the new rule in 1978 which defined the SFO–what it really is and its history–much more clearly.]
   AND
2. The person who really led and ran the fraternity was likely to be a priest, sometimes a Franciscan one, but not always. [And of course that’s also changing since the new rule and the regionalization of the SFO in the 90s.] So there is your parish. The poor one doesn’t have an SFO because the social group that usually joined the SFO probably isn’t or wasn’t present 20 or 30 years or even longer ago.

However the Franciscans really thrive, not in middle class parishes, but in poor ones. Br JR has talked about that a lot. So there is the other parish.

It may not have happened just this way in your locality, but this was the trend pre-1978 in the US.