Vocation problem

[TiggerS]

Yes, I’m a convert and sometimes the soft and sloppy stuff post-Vatican 2 gets to me honestly. But then I realize that some of these people had the stuffing scared out of them as children and they don’t understand their religion any better than that, and then I’m really sorry. It’s not supposed to be like that. Such things, as not caring whether you scare the children for life or not, aren’t Christian and they certainly shouldn’t be Catholic.

I think that we did have the very stuffing scared out of us. It seems to me that the concept was ‘put the very fear, terror, of God into them and they will toe the line’. And to toe the line meant “Go to Mass on Sunday and Confession at least once yearly” and at least you will get just over the line. Attend missions, benediction, rosary and you will do better. We were fear driven, conditioned into it over many years. Due to the way we were being ‘formed’ it was impossible for most to view God as Love. He was the Big Policemen in The Sky searching vigorously and ardently for all offenders, big and small.
I love the texts out of V2 and those that have followed. And it is fair enough that one person prefers this type of expression and another something different. It is humanity. And viva la differance! Unity in Diversity! - hope that French is correct spelling, if not - you should try to read my Latin!

 

[joanofarc2008]

Yes, that’s probably an artifact of the recent past too. In the US, 2 things.

1. SFO fraternities in most parts of the country were founded early to mid-20th century and they were founded in middle class parishes. Most of the people in them had very poor formation and this was before the new rule in 1978. The fraternities were often treated like prayer groups or sodalities in those days. [That’s changed since the new rule in 1978 which defined the SFO–what it really is and its history–much more clearly.]
   AND
2. The person who really led and ran the fraternity was likely to be a priest, sometimes a Franciscan one, but not always. [And of course that’s also changing since the new rule and the regionalization of the SFO in the 90s.] So there is your parish. The poor one doesn’t have an SFO because the social group that usually joined the SFO probably isn’t or wasn’t present 20 or 30 years or even longer ago.

However the Franciscans really thrive, not in middle class parishes, but in poor ones. Br JR has talked about that a lot. So there is the other parish.

It may not have happened just this way in your locality, but this was the trend pre-1978 in the US.

Actually not quite true in this case. But your conclusions are still valid. It more has to do with who one of the founding members of the one in the middle class parish was.

As far as the poor parish - It is a New Orleans parish and the Fraternity was put to sleep after Katrina as the members were mostly elderly and died off. The neighborhood itself sustained a lot of devestation.

Other than that I would say your conclusions would have been valid except like I said that there were outside circumstances that I did not mention just due to the whole internet thing.

 

[iloveangels]

I think that we did have the very stuffing scared out of us. It seems to me that the concept was ‘put the very fear, terror, of God into them and they will toe the line’. And to toe the line meant “Go to Mass on Sunday and Confession at least once yearly” and at least you will get just over the line. Attend missions, benediction, rosary and you will do better. We were fear driven, conditioned into it over many years. Due to the way we were being ‘formed’ it was impossible for most to view God as Love. He was the Big Policemen in The Sky searching vigorously and ardently for all offenders, big and small.
I love the texts out of V2 and those that have followed. And it is fair enough that one person prefers this type of expression and another something different. It is humanity. And viva la differance! Unity in Diversity! - hope that French is correct spelling, if not - you should try to read my Latin!

I’ve seen so much of this fear, and it’s a shame. On the other hand, I’ve seen so many abuses come out of Vatican II that were never intended by the Council, I can’t tell you I love that either. There is still much confusion among most Catholics. It’s getting better though. It is getting better.

But I think that good can come out of all this, and I think God has a design here. We just have to cooperate, which is a good thing and good for us. We’ll probably even like it in the long run, if we do it well, honestly and work hard and pray hard. That’s how God works, really.

 

[TiggerS]

I’m guessing, knowing what I’ve learned about Franciscan history in the US, but am I right?

The only Franciscan priest I have ever had contact with was the chaplain in a monastery I entered. He was the most severe and serious person I have ever known. I never ever knew him to smile nor to be anything but overwhelmingly severe and serious. He terrified me. This is not a statement about Franciscans in general. I know nothing at all about them really and have only ever had one contact with a Franciscan in my life.

My leaning is towards Carmel and Carmelite spirituality. My best pal is a Carmelite prioress. My patron saint and true guide and mentor, adviser and comforter, since my Confirmation is St. Therese of Lisieux, Discalced Carmelite. And courtesy of my Dad, I hve always had great devotion to Our Lady whom I have on a very high pedestal - so high, I once said to a priest that I can identify more with her outspoken Son. Nowadays I view Our Lady as a person to imitate in her faithful discipleship. But many years ago, I was in absolutely and totally in awe of her. And when I think about it, how did Jesus learn to be as fearless and outspoken as He was in the interests of Truth. It had to be at the knees of St Joseph and Mary. Hence I hve great devotion to St. Joseph also.

 

[TiggerS]

I’ve seen so much of this fear, and it’s a shame. On the other hand, I’ve seen so many abuses come out of Vatican II that were never intended by the Council, I can’t tell you I love that either. There is still much confusion among most Catholics. It’s getting better though. It is getting better.

But I think that good can come out of all this, and I think God has a design here. We just have to cooperate, which is a good thing and good for us. We’ll probably even like it in the long run, if we do it well, honestly and work hard and pray hard. That’s how God works, really.

We were totally confused after Vatican2. We were alarmed in fact. I can remember my Mum saying “This is the protestization of Catholicism”. It is now 50 years later and I think it was Pope Benedict who said that we are only just beginning to understand Vatican 2. Also I have read that after every single Council in The Church there has been arguments and dissention for a long period as people worked out what the Council was really saying. What I thik we need to refer to with trust and confidence is: “Thou art Peter The Rock, and on this Rock I will build my Church. And the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it”

Very often those who did not live pre V2 have idealized and put on a pedestal the years prior to V2. Some others find change almost impossible to work through as it threatens a psychological sense of security developed prior to change. Growth means change. If you think about it the seed that becomes the tree has gone through massive changes along the way. It has grown. And should it become stuck in one particular stage along the way, it is in decline and will die.

I look to the future with confidence and rich sense of Hope, which doesn’t mean that there will not be trials and difficulties along the way.

 

[iloveangels]

The only Franciscan priest I have ever had contact with was the chaplain in a monastery I entered. He was the most severe and serious person I have ever known. I never ever knew him to smile nor to be anything but overwhelmingly severe and serious. He terrified me. This is not a statement about Franciscans in general. I know nothing at all about them really and have only ever had one contact with a Franciscan in my life.

My leaning is towards Carmel and Carmelite spirituality. My best pal is a Carmelite prioress. My patron saint and true guide and mentor, adviser and comforter, since my Confirmation is St. Therese of Lisieux, Discalced Carmelite. And courtesy of my Dad, I hve always had great devotion to Our Lady whom I have on a very high pedestal - so high, I once said to a priest that I can identify more with her outspoken Son. Nowadays I view Our Lady as a person to imitate in her faithful discipleship. But many years ago, I was in absolutely and totally in awe of her. And when I think about it, how did Jesus learn to be as fearless and outspoken as He was in the interests of Truth. It had to be at the knees of St Joseph and Mary. Hence I hve great devotion to St. Joseph also.

Franciscans aren’t usually like that. In fact, sometimes they catch a little flak for being informal and easy-going. It can look like they’re not paying attention… But no one, under the skin, is more traditional in the old fashioned sense than a Gospel-loving Franciscan.

I remember an ancient priest at a retreat I went to a few years ago. I went to confession, we got all done talking, he was about 99.9 years old and he patted me very gently on top of the head with his old weak gnarled hand, and said—“there. as good as the day you were born” like an old farmer, and then smiled at me like he meant it 250%. There was something about it that was so funny and touching and timeless. This is far more like most Franciscans than what you experienced. If you want to see Franciscans in action, watch some of the videos of the CFRs online. Just google them.

You might be interested in a Carmelite third order. You can probably find them online too.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Franciscans aren’t usually like that. In fact, sometimes they catch a little flak for being informal and easy-going. It can look like they’re not paying attention… But no one, under the skin, is more traditional in the old fashioned sense than a Gospel-loving Franciscan.

I remember an ancient priest at a retreat I went to a few years ago. I went to confession, we got all done talking, he was about 99.9 years old and he patted me very gently on top of the head with his old weak gnarled hand, and said—“there. as good as the day you were born” like an old farmer, and smiled at me like he meant it 200%. There was something about it that was so funny and touching and timeless. This is far more like most Franciscans than what you experienced. If you want to see Franciscans in action, watch some of the videos of the CFRs online. Just google them.

You might be interested in a Carmelite third order. You can probably find them online too.

The phrases Franciscan Chaos and Seraphic Confusion come to mind.

 

[iloveangels]

We were totally confused after Vatican2. We were alarmed in fact. I can remember my Mum saying “This is the protestization of Catholicism”. It is now 50 years later and I think it was Pope Benedict who said that we are only just beginning to understand Vatican 2. Also I have read that after every single Council in The Church there has been arguments and dissention for a long period as people worked out what the Council was really saying. What I thik we need to refer to with trust and confidence is: “Thou art Peter The Rock, and on this Rock I will build my Church. And the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it”

Very often those who did not live pre V2 have idealized and put on a pedestal the years prior to V2. Some others find change almost impossible to work through as it threatens a psychological sense of security developed prior to change. Growth means change. If you think about it the seed that becomes the tree has gone through massive changes along the way. It has grown. And should it become stuck in one particular stage along the way, it is in decline and will die.

I look to the future with confidence and rich sense of Hope, which doesn’t mean that there will not be trials and difficulties along the way.

What you’ve written here is very true. I look forward with hope also. God has designs on us.

 

[TiggerS]

Franciscans aren’t usually like that. In fact, sometimes they catch a little flak for being informal and easy-going. It can look like they’re not paying attention… But no one, under the skin, is more traditional in the old fashioned sense than a Gospel-loving Franciscan.

I remember an ancient priest at a retreat I went to a few years ago. I went to confession, we got all done talking, he was about 99.9 years old and he patted me very gently on top of the head with his old weak gnarled hand, and said—“there. as good as the day you were born” like an old farmer, and then smiled at me like he meant it 250%. There was something about it that was so funny and touching and timeless. This is far more like most Franciscans than what you experienced. If you want to see Franciscans in action, watch some of the videos of the CFRs online. Just google them.

You might be interested in a Carmelite third order. You can probably find them online too.

I fully realize that my one experience of a Franciscan priest is not at all what the Franciscan Order is all about, nor Franciscans either.

I am in touch with a Carmelite Third Order but I do not feel any sort of real call at this point anyway. I did attend two Carmelite Third Order meetings years ago and was shocked that it was really just a cuppa and a chat and a read of some documents from leadership - without any sort of discussion. One of those documents mentioned “charism” and they had no idea what it meant, nor what the Carmelite charism actually was.
I have a spiritual director and have almost always had one and thanks be to The Lord He sends me jolly good ones - wise, holy, educated and experienced. I am under private vows to a quite specific way of life. My director is confident, as am I, that this is my call. I would love to belong to some type of organization in The Church, mainly for the support and formation, but after my monastic journey and the Third Order experience, I am very cautious about them. But if I felt The Lord was calling, then I would follow.

 

[iloveangels]

If the above is the situation, then it is time to reflect on possibilities as to why it is happening and what could be done about it on an action with review process. Mindsets and conditioning is not going to happen overnight. It takes a long time for conditioning to occur and it will probably take a longer time to undo that conditioning and replace it with the new as a conditioned mindset.
We need to reflect on, to my mind, our own mindset and what can be done about it if not happy with it. We need to discuss laity and the parish in new ways but with a common universal concept and goal about the parish - and not be always critical with nothing constructive to offer. We have a universal concept and goal about laity in the Document “The Apostolate of The Laity” found here We need to struggle against the mindset that we are “just laity”. We have an important document on the laith in The Apostolate of The Laity - found here :vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651118_apostolicam-actuositatem_en.html
And if its cut and pasted into Word one can highlight and make notes to one’s heart;s content.
Laity have an important vocation and call at the heart of The Church as it is God’s desire that all should be saved. And we are called INTO the world for the world. The heart of The Church is the Heart of The Lord and is simply Love - and Love can be a difficult call as we probably all know and experience.
If we are going to be dismissed as “just laity” then the mindset develops that I am “just laity” and dont have to do or think anything at all - just go to Mass on Sunday and to Confession at least once yearly and I am home and hosed … no worries! And that tells me how the mindset developed in the first place long before V2.

The laity needs lay leaders who are completely faithful to the Church but willing to lead faithfully. That’s the thing.

 

[iloveangels]

The phrases Franciscan Chaos and Seraphic Confusion come to mind.

<= Franciscans saying “yeah, pretty much”

 

[TiggerS]

What you’ve written here is very true. I look forward with hope also. God has designs on us.

You have hit the nail on the head to my mind! I have a sense of joy and excitement in the lay vocation, with great gratitude and thanksgiving, a sense of dignity and of having been honored- it is a great adventure and largely untrodden in practical terms. A road not often taken.

 

[iloveangels]

I fully realize that my one experience of a Franciscan priest is not at all what the Franciscan Order is all about, nor Franciscans either.

I am in touch with a Carmelite Third Order but I do not feel any sort of real call at this point anyway. I did attend two Carmelite Third Order meetings years ago and was shocked that it was really just a cuppa and a chat and a read of some documents from leadership - without any sort of discussion. One of those documents mentioned “charism” and they had no idea what it meant, nor what the Carmelite charism actually was.
I have a spiritual director and have almost always had one and thanks be to The Lord He sends me jolly good ones - wise, holy, educated and experienced. I am under private vows to a quite specific way of life. My director is confident, as am I, that this is my call. I would love to belong to some type of organization in The Church, mainly for the support and formation, but after my monastic journey and the Third Order experience, I am very cautious about them. But if I felt The Lord was calling, then I would follow.

It sounds like you’ve found it already.

 

[TiggerS]

The laity needs lay leaders who are completely faithful to the Church but willing to lead faithfully. That’s the thing.

Meanwhile, we have our knees…and to struggle on largely without such leadership in that they have a sense of vision and of commitment to that vision…and to struggle on with confident joy and with hope. Rome, indeed, twas not built in a day.

 

[iloveangels]

Meanwhile, we have our knees…and to struggle on largely without such leadership in that they have a sense of vision and of commitment to that vision…and to struggle on with confident joy and with hope. Rome, indeed, twas not built in a day.

No. But somebody had to crawl out of the cave and start hauling bricks sometime or it never would have been built.

 

[iloveangels]

I fully realize that my one experience of a Franciscan priest is not at all what the Franciscan Order is all about, nor Franciscans either.

I am in touch with a Carmelite Third Order but I do not feel any sort of real call at this point anyway. I did attend two Carmelite Third Order meetings years ago and was shocked that it was really just a cuppa and a chat and a read of some documents from leadership - without any sort of discussion. One of those documents mentioned “charism” and they had no idea what it meant, nor what the Carmelite charism actually was.
I have a spiritual director and have almost always had one and thanks be to The Lord He sends me jolly good ones - wise, holy, educated and experienced. I am under private vows to a quite specific way of life. My director is confident, as am I, that this is my call. I would love to belong to some type of organization in The Church, mainly for the support and formation, but after my monastic journey and the Third Order experience, I am very cautious about them. But if I felt The Lord was calling, then I would follow.

Actually, do you want to experience something really outrageously Franciscan? Other than the CFRs, you can google solanuscasey.org. [They don’t like links in here.]

Find the site and listen to him playing the violin for God. He gave his whole life for God and the people who came to him. It’s quite a story. And this violin playing is all he had left to give by the time this was recorded, but that didn’t stop him. Solanus Casey is one of my favorite Franciscans of all time.

 

[TiggerS]

No. But somebody had to crawl out of the cave and start hauling bricks sometime or it never would have been built.

I think that this has begun. Not universally perhaps, not everywhere - but in pockets. The first thing necessary is to address the mindset we have about what it means to be a Catholic lay person. Before that person crawls out the cave and starts hauling bricks, there is a thought or thinking that occurs.
The internet can be a great medium - a great communicator. One can sit in one’s kitchen or study and contact the whole universal world. What a Gift of God! The Lord not only goes before us into Galillee, He has created a fast train for us to reach it - which reminds me of St Therese and the ladder of holiness. She expressed that what she needed was an escalator and she was given one! And she said she would spend her Heaven doing good upon the earth. St. Therese, pray for us! And recent texts from Pope Benedict and others point out that we need to learn to use it in the interests of The Gospel.

I am very conscious we have wandered very far off the thread subject, but it seems to be the way The Holy Spirit has led the thread. Should we ask that this thread be split in two? A separate thread started for the vocation of the laity?

 

[iloveangels]

I think that this has begun. Not universally perhaps, not everywhere - but in pockets.

I agree. I’m seeing evidence of it, a lot of evidence. But a lot of people have to help.

The first thing necessary is to address the mindset we have about what it means to be a Catholic lay person. Before that person crawls out the cave and starts hauling bricks, there is a thought or thinking that occurs.

True.

The internet can be a great medium - a great communicator. One can sit in one’s kitchen or study and contact the whole universal world. What a Gift of God! The Lord not only goes before us into Galillee, He has created a fast train for us to reach it - which reminds me of St Therese and the ladder of holiness. She expressed that what she needed was an escalator and she was given one! And she said she would spend her Heaven doing good upon the earth. St. Therese, pray for us! And recent texts from Pope Benedict and others point out that we need to learn to use it in the interests of The Gospel.

True as long as it doesn’t stall there.

I am very conscious we have wandered very far off the thread subject, but it seems to be the way The Holy Spirit has led the thread. Should we ask that this thread be split in two? A separate thread started for the vocation of the laity?

I really think you have a good idea there. What does everybody else think? Do you want to start it?

 

[TiggerS]

Actually, do you want to experience something really outrageously Franciscan? Other than the CFRs, you can google solanuscasey.org. [They don’t like links in here.]

Find the site and listen to him playing the violin for God. He gave his whole life for God and the people who came to him. It’s quite a story. And this violin playing is all he had left to give by the time this was recorded, but that didn’t stop him. Solanus Casey is one of my favorite Franciscans of all time.

Today is Sunday here and I have had days off work this week, so I am more active than usual. I am truly blest if I have time to breathe. Most days it is 4pm and time to switch off to other things - and I have no idea where the day has gone. Other than that, I feel no real attraction to Franciscan spirituality more because I dont have the time to look into it than anything.
Thank you very much for the information, however. Who knows where The Lord will lead.

 

[iloveangels]

Today is Sunday here and I have had days off work this week, so I am more active than usual. I am truly blest if I have time to breathe. Most days it is 4pm and time to switch off to other things - and I have no idea where the day has gone. Other than that, I feel no real attraction to Franciscan spirituality more because I dont have the time to look into it than anything.
Thank you very much for the information, however. Who knows where The Lord will lead.

I understand exactly. I’ve been busy like that.

I’m a Secular Franciscan and I just like Solanus Casey. That was a non sequitur post.

[And the point of the Franciscan posts was, don’t be afraid of the Franciscans, for Pete’s sake. They don’t bite. Almost to a person, they tend to be pretty mellow.]