Walk In Love

[Kitty_Chan]

believers:

Nancy, I believe that God will judge every person’s heart whether they know the scriptures or not. Whether they were baptized with water or not. He will determine whether our heart is of love or hate and no in between. Those are the two opposites that separate Heaven and Hell. Catholic or Protestant, it doesn’t matter. God accepts the loving and rejects the hateful.

Still with ya on this believers

Regarding the CCC#1260 exerpt, I dont see it conflicting with what believers has said.

" …fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made a partaker, in a way know to God,…"

God knows the heart, He knows what we are about. We can accept Him or reject Him thats our choice.

I dont know where "or His Church" fits into this 4aReason. Because its a understanding of mine that If we will all face judgement (the same destiny) one day. Those that confess that Jesus is Lord do in fact know the Lord.

And those that confess that Jesus is Lord are part of the church of believers no matter where they come from.

Christ leaves and looks for the one lost sheep. He isnt only going to just take them from their catholic, baptist, 7th day, lutheran, pentacostal, charasmtic herds.

Hes going to find all the others, perhaps some are from other “herds” or “flocks” and some are just wandering because they always got bit when they entered a herd.

He will call, and all those that know His Voice will come.

 

[scylla]

Kitty Chan:

Still with ya on this believers

Regarding the CCC#1260 exerpt, I dont see it conflicting with what believers has said.

" …fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made a partaker, in a way know to God,…"

God knows the heart, He knows what we are about. We can accept Him or reject Him thats our choice.

I dont know where "or His Church" fits into this 4aReason. Because its a understanding of mine that If we will all face judgement (the same destiny) one day. Those that confess that Jesus is Lord do in fact know the Lord.

And those that confess that Jesus is Lord are part of the church of believers no matter where they come from.

Christ leaves and looks for the one lost sheep. He isnt only going to just take them from their catholic, baptist, 7th day, lutheran, pentacostal, charasmtic herds.

Hes going to find all the others, perhaps some are from other “herds” or “flocks” and some are just wandering because they always got bit when they entered a herd.

He will call, and all those that know His Voice will come.

Amen God will know His own, yet there are those who knowingly reject truth for their own pleasure.

This is evil, placing your own desires before God and this is what many do even when they say they love Jesus.
So if I am aware that Jesus founded a Church yet start my own for my own satisfaction or to make me feel better about my relationship with Jesus then I am denying God and putting myself in place of Him. No matter how much I insist I am trying to faithfully follow Him.
Now there are many in Baptist, Lutheran, Calvary Chapel, Vineyard, etc who lovingly follow Jesus. They are unaware of anybody creating a new church of their own and follow Jesus to the best of their ability. God will not judge on ignorance, but to those who are told of truth and if this is ignored for convenience, I would fear for their souls.
Since Jesus came to testify to the truth, he didn’t come to just say believe what you want and follow me. But He died to testify to the truth and the truth is not opinion, but something we submit to.

I love God enough to submit to Him, and even do what I don’t want to do to lovingly follow Him. We need to take up our cross daily and submit to the truth. Even when we get bit or someone has offended us, we must follow Jesus, in His way and not our own.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Batjacboy]

Kitty Chan:

Those that confess that Jesus is Lord do in fact know the Lord.

Be careful.

Matthew 7:21:

Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

If confessing “that Jesus is Lord” means no more than a verbal confession (which is what many believe it means), it is not enough, as the New Testament makes very clear.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

scylla:

Amen God will know His own, yet there are those who knowingly reject truth for their own pleasure.

This is evil, placing your own desires before God and this is what many do even when they say they love Jesus.
So if I am aware that Jesus founded a Church yet start my own for my own satisfaction or to make me feel better about my relationship with Jesus then I am denying God and putting myself in place of Him. No matter how much I insist I am trying to faithfully follow Him.

Yea it would be evil if someone started a church to fullfill their own desires. Are you saying this is what Luther did?

{Quote} Now there are many in Baptist, Lutheran, Calvary Chapel, Vineyard, etc who lovingly follow Jesus. They are unaware of anybody creating a new church of their own and follow Jesus to the best of their ability. God will not judge on ignorance, but to those who are told of truth and if this is ignored for convenience, I would fear for their souls.

Im pretty sure most have the general idea (like me) that Luther was unhappy with the catholic church and split away from it. So to say most are unaware that someone created a new church of their own is probabably not accurate. The general idea is there, so people are generally not ignorant of this knowledge. conclusion well the souls. I guess from these inferences that if ones not in the catholic church then they are out!

Since Jesus came to testify to the truth, he didn’t come to just say believe what you want and follow me. But He died to testify to the truth and the truth is not opinion, but something we submit to.
I love God enough to submit to Him, and even do what I don’t want to do to lovingly follow Him. We need to take up our cross daily and submit to the truth. Even when we get bit or someone has offended us, we must follow Jesus, in His way and not our own.
God Bless
Scylla

The belief that non catholics dont submit, follow, take up the cross, just believe what they want, is propaganda. Just like the propaganda that the catholic church changed the day of the Lord to Sunday from Saturday and therefore is the antichrist.

It has the same result both statements bite, chew and drive away sheep. So some sheep just stay to themselves and continue to love God on their own. Or some perhaps Luther (Id have to research something on his feeling on the matter) Just go off and soon a new herd has started consisting of bitten sheep.

ps

I was trying to think of all the different kinds of sheep there are, thats what I listed earler. Myself, I still listen for that voice and try very hard not to be pushed around by any sheep.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Batjacboy:

Be careful.
Matthew 7:21:
Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

If confessing “that Jesus is Lord” means no more than a verbal confession (which is what many believe it means), it is not enough, as the New Testament makes very clear.

I was going to add to that statement

Those that confess that Jesus is Lord do in fact know the Lord.

When I wrote the word confess I was thinking to understand and know, to have belief in and publicaly state that Jesus is the Son of God and does in fact exist.

For some to state that is HUGE, because they dont acknowledge there is a God. So confess is meant as strongly as the word iitself implies:

*To disclose (something damaging or inconvenient to oneself); admit. See Synonyms at acknowledge.

To acknowledge belief or faith in; profess. *

Actually I find the disclose something damaging or inconvenient terribly appropriate to confessing knowledge of Christ.

 

[scylla]

Most of my friends in Calvary Chapel do not know who started Calvary Chapel, they just refer to themselves as Christians, and do the best they can in their walk with the Lord.

I never said non-catholics do not pick up their cross, I did say this is necessary.

Now someone who says they follow Christ yet does so in their own way as a matter of preference is not following Christ. If someone tries to be a Christian and follows the truth as it is presented to them as faithfully as possible then God will see their faithfulness.
Someone who knowingly rejects God and places their desires or never investigates truth if someone presents it to them clearly is knowingly saying they are Christian but not seeking His will.

I spend most of my time discussing religion with non-catholics in my daily life and count them as my brothers and sisters in Christ. The majority of them hold misconceptions of the Catholic faith or just never even check into their history. These are honest people who follow Christ faithfully.
I have met one out of dozens who is knowingly rejecting truth as I have talked with him a long time and now will not talk to me. This one lone person is more content to have a paid salary as a minister than give a reason for the his faith. He even has admitted that he wont become Catholic because he is married and wont be able to be a minister since he is married and that is his reason.
The majority of Christians I encounter love Jesus and follow Him faithfully, this is why I count you as my brother or sister in Christ. But I cannot admit that truth is opinion, I am sure you can agree with that.

But if someone knows that the Catholic Church is the Church instituted by Jesus and rejects it out of personal convenience or preference then that is knowingly rejecting truth. You might not know it is the Church Jesus Christ instituted yet in your heart, so I might hesitate to accept it also. This is not rejecting truth as the truth has not been properly presented to you yet.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Hi Kitty Chan!!
Kitty Chan:

I dont know where "or His Church" fits into this 4aReason. Because its a understanding of mine that If we will all face judgement (the same destiny) one day. Those that confess that Jesus is Lord do in fact know the Lord.

And those that confess that Jesus is Lord are part of the church of believers no matter where they come from.

We are saved by Christ through His Body, the Church. Those who do not recognize this as being true can still be saved. That’s where the “or His Church” fits in.

Yes, those who confess that Jesus is Lord are united, in some way, to the Church, but they are not in full communion with it.

Christ leaves and looks for the one lost sheep. He isnt only going to just take them from their catholic, baptist, 7th day, lutheran, pentacostal, charasmtic herds.

Amen to that sister!! God wills that ALL be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. He meets us where we are.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[exoflare]

NotWorthy:

No, Believers is **correctly **stating that Catholics teach that any person who is baptized correctly using the Trinitarian formula is considered Catholic, a Child of God.

Notworthy

Okay, then. I had assumed they meant “Catholic” according to the outside understanding.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

scylla:

Most of my friends in Calvary Chapel do not know who started Calvary Chapel, they just refer to themselves as Christians, and do the best they can in their walk with the Lord.

I never said non-catholics do not pick up their cross, I did say this is necessary.

ok Im clear then, its necessary for us all and I agree. as for the friends I see a difference once spoken of by Tony Campolo a baptist preacher and socialoligist. He states that “we” could learn something about tradition from the catholics. ie the wedding ceremony, when they say I do so does the rest of the married couples in the room and while its for the couple of the day, When the cermony follows tradition then everyone can be blest by it.

Since catholic churches are generally older with that history and tradition it is thought of more. Id suggest those at Calvery Chapel dont think of the church as traditional or historic. So dont dwell on when it may have started. Its just not the focus. But I bet when that church has a 10 yr anniversary then thoughts will start going that way. And traditions will have formed.

I spend most of my time discussing religion with non-catholics in my daily life and count them as my brothers and sisters in Christ. The majority of them hold misconceptions of the Catholic faith or just never even check into their history. These are honest people who follow Christ faithfully.

Thank you for counting those of another church type from your own as brothers and sisters in Christ. I do as well, I cant concieve that God wants it any other way. Misconceptions is the way of life here on whats his faces planet, he likes it that way. I rather like to clear them up when opportunities arrive.

Misconceptions prevent us from truly knowing one another. They keep things shallow and never move beyond the label of a person to get to know the ingredients.

I dont know about your minister friend but if hes married then it wouldnt make sense to kill a marriage for him to be a priest. And to give up his ministry because its a sham is pretty hard to take. How awful, what good can come of such choices.

For him I think it would go beyond personal convenience, and become a terrible witness. To divorce to be a priest is not a choice.

Truthfully I knew the catholics claimed to be the 'first" church. You say its not instituted in my heart and thats right. Im not sure it will ever be. There are dead ends Im finding since posting here. Ive been able to clear up some of those misconceptions.

And I cannot see that someone could understand that the catholic church is the first church and then say oh well Im still going to the baptists. It doesnt follow logic. If your convinced its the church then you change. Sure your family may not like it but other families really hate it when one decides for Christ when they are atheists. Its just not the same.

Now for someone to understand Christ as their saviour and still say no Im still going to continue robbing banks. Yes its illogical but one has to admit that they really are not the sort of very good person they thought they were. They now have to admit they are a curmmy sinner and not that all around good guy.

 

[TrustInTheLord]

NotWorthy:

But Believers, if you’ve studied the Scriptures, how can you claim ignorance of what they teach. If you know there is a Church that Jesus established, shouldn’t you learn what it teaches and why it teaches it? Ignorance is a valid excuse for those who have no chance to learn, but…

Notworthy

You know my position on the true church. The true church is ALL those who are going and have gone to Heaven. No part of the body of Christ will go to Hell. Jesus said, “I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.”

As for accepting the RCC teachings, I have issues when studying something other than the Holy Bible (i.e. Catechism of the Catholic Church). I don’t believe it’s Holy or divinely inspired no matter how “infallible” the claims. The Holy Bible teaches about love and how to love as commanded by Jesus. History lessons/debates are irrelevant. In my opinion, what truly matters is what’s in your heart. I believe that’s where the true battle for salvation lies. I believe that we will be held accountable on judgement day for everything that we think, feel, say & do. So Love God and one another as Jesus Himself commands. This is the greatest commandment of them all. That means EVERYTHING else is secondary.

Your brother in Christ

 

[NotWorthy]

TrustInTheLord:

You know my position on the true church. The true church is ALL those who are going and have gone to Heaven. No part of the body of Christ will go to Hell. Jesus said, “I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.”

As for accepting the RCC teachings, I have issues when studying something other than the Holy Bible (i.e. Catechism of the Catholic Church). I don’t believe it’s Holy or divinely inspired no matter how “infallible” the claims. The Holy Bible teaches about love and how to love as commanded by Jesus. History lessons/debates are irrelevant. In my opinion, what truly matters is what’s in your heart. I believe that’s where the true battle for salvation lies. I believe that we will be held accountable on judgement day for everything that we think, feel, say & do. So Love God and one another as Jesus Himself commands. This is the greatest commandment of them all. That means EVERYTHING else is secondary.

Your brother in Christ

OK, so if I use your logic and pick and choose whatever I want to believe in what you say, it would be “All Have Gone to Hell”!!!

It that how it works? Thanks for the tip!

Notworthy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

This thread seems to be boiling down (for some, not for all)as nothing other than one opinion as opposed to another opinion. This is pretty much why I’m Catholic. Absolute truth exists nowhere else but in the Church. Outside the Church all opinions must be accepted as equally valid and true simply because the individual believer is convinced that the holy Spirit has guided him personally to this truth and the holy Spirit would not mislead him. Never mind that one “truth” is “A” and the other “not A”. Outside the Church both must be true. That flies in the face of Jesus’ prayer for unity on the night before His death. He prayed that we would be one as He and the Father are one. There’s never an instance when Jesus believes “A” while the Father believes “not A”. Never.

::climbing down off soapbox::

With that I leave this thread to those interested in arguing opinions. God bless you all!

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[TrustInTheLord]

Catholic4aReasn:

This thread seems to be boiling down (for some, not for all)as nothing other than one opinion as opposed to another opinion. This is pretty much why I’m Catholic. Absolute truth exists nowhere else but in the Church. Outside the Church all opinions must be accepted as equally valid and true simply because the individual believer is convinced that the holy Spirit has guided him personally to this truth and the holy Spirit would not mislead him. Never mind that one “truth” is “A” and the other “not A”. Outside the Church both must be true. That flies in the face of Jesus’ prayer for unity on the night before His death. He prayed that we would be one as He and the Father are one. There’s never an instance when Jesus believes “A” while the Father believes “not A”. Never.

::climbing down off soapbox::

With that I leave this thread to those interested in arguing opinions. God bless you all!

In Christ,
Nancy

Actually, it’s not boiling down. You’re just not seeing the point. The RCC is a sheep pen only and not the HERD. That would mean the RCC is not THE church but part of it. If that’s so, then there’s something else common to all the sheep.

Instead of arguing over which church is the true church. Maybe we should be discussing the characteristics of a true Christian?

 

[exoflare]

TrustInTheLord:

Actually, it’s not boiling down. You’re just not seeing the point. The RCC is a sheep pen only and not the HERD. That would mean the RCC is not THE church but part of it. If that’s so, then there’s something else common to all the sheep.

Instead of arguing over which church is the true church. Maybe we should be discussing the characteristics of a true Christian?

You won’t even answer the questions we asked you a long time ago. I hope you came prepared with more than personal attacks this time… So I’ll ask you again.

Why do you trust any of the books in the New Testament? If all its books were written after Jesus’ death, how do you know they teach what He wants you to learn?

 

[TrustInTheLord]

exoflare:

You won’t even answer the questions we asked you a long time ago. I hope you came prepared with more than personal attacks this time… So I’ll ask you again.

exoflare:

Why do you trust any of the books in the New Testament?

Because the New Testament is God’s Word.

exoflare:

If all its books were written after Jesus’ death, how do you know they teach what He wants you to learn?

The Bible teaches about love and how to love as Jesus commanded. He did it by showing His love during His life. Catholics focus on the death, burial, resurrection. We should be focusing on His life. Jesus taught all we needed to know for salvation. If it’s not in the Bible, it’s not scriptural. Here are some questions for you. Can you please tell me where in the Bible says that one day we should look for a Catechism and do what it tells you? I can’t find Catechism anywhere. It’s not holy or divinely written. Where in the Bible does it say that the Pope is infallible? I can’t find that either. Where does it say that His church will have carved images in the likeness of man and woman in the place of worship? Where does it say to edit the 10 commandments to a simpler version for easier memorization? Where does it say that the Church will be called Roman? Where does it say that I should call any man “Father” let alone “Holy Father”. Where does it say that we will one day make “sacred images” and venerate them? Where does it say to dress up the teachers of the Word in robes of Scarlet and Purple? Where does it say to call a man “Vicar of Christ”? Where does it say to confess my sins to a man.

 

[NotWorthy]

TrustInTheLord:

exoflare:

You won’t even answer the questions we asked you a long time ago. I hope you came prepared with more than personal attacks this time… So I’ll ask you again.

Because the New Testament is God’s Word.

The Bible teaches about love and how to love as Jesus commanded. He did it by showing His love during His life. Catholics focus on the death, burial, resurrection. We should be focusing on His life. Jesus taught all we needed to know for salvation. If it’s not in the Bible, it’s not scriptural. Here are some questions for you. Can you please tell me where in the Bible says that one day we should look for a Catechism and do what it tells you? I can’t find Catechism anywhere. It’s not holy or divinely written. Where in the Bible does it say that the Pope is infallible? I can’t find that either. Where does it say that His church will have carved images in the likeness of man and woman in the place of worship? Where does it say to edit the 10 commandments to a simpler version for easier memorization? Where does it say that the Church will be called Roman? Where does it say that I should call any man “Father” let alone “Holy Father”. Where does it say that we will one day make “sacred images” and venerate them? Where does it say to dress up the teachers of the Word in robes of Scarlet and Purple? Where does it say to call a man “Vicar of Christ”? Where does it say to confess my sins to a man.

Where does it say in the Bible that the Bible is our sole source for Catechism??? Where does it say to disregard all Sacred Tradition? Where does it say there will be no teaching authority after Jesus ascends into Heaven? If you can answer that to our satisfaction, then we’ll be glad to adress EVERY one of your questions!!!

Notworthy