Wanting to be a Traditional Catholic(m)

[heart4home]

I wonder if you could find even one like-minded person in your parish. Like, a “closet-traditionalist”…haha. So that you could at least know that there is one other person with whom you share a deeply personal experience.

I assume you have discussed the issue of veiling in depth with your family, so I’m not sure there’s much more you can do in that regard. Perhaps in order not to make it seem like you’re pushing the issue or trying to “force” them to agree with you, you could just every once in awhile ask your husband if you could veil that day (which sounds absurd, and IS absurd since you shouldn’t have to do that), so that at least discussion is brought up every so often and you can explicitly express why you wish to veil. You need to find out exactly why your husband is uncomfortable with you veiling. If you can get him to be more open to it, your children may be more open to it as well.

In general, it is very good you are sacrificing your desires in the interests of your family, but I believe it is very unfair of your husband/family to suppress a very good, wholesome desire on your part - so I hope there is at least dialogue between you and your husband on the subject every so often, and that there is hope of a change in heart.

Agree! The OP did not say that there was anything wrong, per se, with the Ordinary Form. As reflected in Confiteor Deo’s response, it is clear that even if the Ordinary Form is celebrated completely reverently and even as traditionally as possible (which is not common today, although there is a good trend towards that happening more often), it is simply a different experience than the Extraordinary Form. Just because one prefers the EF does not (necessarily) mean they think that the OF is in itself bad - it’s just that the experiences are different,and it is perfectly legitimate to prefer the different experience of the EF to the OF.

I experience this often myself now. I probably have access to a much more traditional/reverent OF Mass than I ever have had and indeed, than many people experience today - yet I still prefer the EF just as much as (actually, even more than) I did a year ago after moving here. Again, it’s just a different experience which one cannot (or at best, usually does not) experience in an OF Mass. And this is okay. Just like it’s OK to prefer the OF. Though I will always try to introduce/expose more and more people to the EF. So that there are more attendees. So that I can recruit more and more people to my choir. So that we have an even more and more beautiful experience for Sunday High Masses.

OK, I’m done! Back to the OP, always have hope! I hope you know of at least one person with whom you can discuss shared views on this every so often!

Thank you for your kind reply. In all fairness, my husband would never forbid me, he has a good heart and is not in anyway overbearing, but it would make him uncomfortable. It may be his “issue”, but out of respect for his discomfort I don’t. My older children, well again, I’m sure I’m being a bit harsh with my comment that they’d never sit with me, but it would make them even more uncomfortable. We are the largest family in our parish. We already stand out. Don’t read more in to that, they love their siblings and our family, but they see it as if I did wear one that others would think I’m trying to be holier etc.

Thanks again. I will have hope!

 

[heart4home]

You could wear a hat. If you wear an embarrassing hat, your family might beg you to wear a veil instead

 

[heart4home]

If I could just point out something. My apologies if it’s not particularly helpful.

The Mass that is celebrated in the majority of parishes can certainly be called a Novus Ordo Mass. Having said that, that particular phrase carries a certain amount of baggage, since many quasi-schismatic traditionalists will purposely use such a term to disparage the Mass. It’s best, IMO, simply to refer to it as the Ordinary Form, as Pope Benedict XVI did. This phrase instantly communicates what you’re talking about, and you’re not using language that individuals who are often disobedient to the post-Conciliar Magisterium insist on using.

I would also like to point out something else.

Very often, people who attend the traditional Latin Mass do so because they prefer it, because they see in it an elevated sacredness, and because they find it more beautiful. I think there’s nothing at all wrong with that sort of attitude, provided it doesn’t lead to pride, and provided it is rooted in the proper obedience to the Church.

BUT … I want to point out an irony, and the irony is that, very often, that sort of mentality is actually Modernistic. When people put their own impulses and subjective feelings ahead of the authority of the Church, and when such feelings become the norm of faith for them, then they are simply Modernists.

People can be liberals and do all sorts of things that can be frustrating to obedient Catholics, and the root cause of their behavior is simply that they are Modernists. On the other had, folks can be quite reactionary, and can basically live out their lives sitting on the border between preferring traditional devotion and implicit Sedeprivationism. They, just like the liberals, are motivated by basic Modernistic impulses, as described above.

So, I do urge caution, and I do urge you to put first your faith, and not simply your feelings or emotions. God will get nothing out of your attending the Extraordinary form if you are doing so for the wrong reasons.

I think or at least hope that while I may be acknowledging my desires to my family and yes those reading here, I’m still being respectful of my family and their desires and not demanding to get my own way. I do hope that shows that I desire to do what God wants of me.

I don’t believe I have wrong intentions. I have just come to understand better why certain things were the way they were and how some things came to be. For example how we ended up with women no longer veiling. I don’t believe my family any less holy etc. just because they don’t agree or share those same beliefs and out of respect and love for them I don’t push it.

 

[johnnyc176]

but attend the Novus Ordo Mass.

I have always craved reverence in the Mass, and believe it is proper for women to cover their heads, but unless God intervenes I will not be able to get my husband to embrace Mass in the Extraordinary Form, and besides it is only offered once per month were we live at a different parish further than our own which we already drive 45 minutes to, passing by the very liberal parish that is only minutes from our home.

If I were to cover my head, I would be the only one in the parish and my husband and older teens / young adult children would be so uncomfortable that I don’t think they’d come with me. We are a large family that still has several younger children and I just wish it could be different.

I can say our priest is more traditional than others in the area, and does add in some Latin phrases, but obviously it is still a Novus Ordum Mass.

We kneel for the consecration, but many stand after receiving. I sometimes feel unsure what we are to do as it seems to show a lack of unity with some standing and some kneeling, but our family does usually continue to kneel.

I guess I just crave the traditionalism that I read about in the Saints lives, or on other traditional Catholic family blogs, but don’t know how to achieve it in my situation, other than to keep praying.

Not even sure why I’m posting, other than it’s been on my heart a lot lately and I could use some encouragement that God understands.

Hopefully an EF form of the Mass will be available to you soon. Have you asked your priest if he will consider the Traditional Latin Mass? Obviously it has been put on your heart for a reason. It sounds like the Mass you attend now is a mishmash and that can be disheartening.

 

[LightBound]

Thank you for your kind reply. In all fairness, my husband would never forbid me, he has a good heart and is not in anyway overbearing, but it would make him uncomfortable. It may be his “issue”, but out of respect for his discomfort I don’t. My older children, well again, I’m sure I’m being a bit harsh with my comment that they’d never sit with me, but it would make them even more uncomfortable. We are the largest family in our parish. We already stand out. Don’t read more in to that, they love their siblings and our family, but they see it as if I did wear one that others would think I’m trying to be holier etc.

Thanks again. I will have hope!

You don’t have to wear a big lacy mantilla to cover your head at Mass. I don’t mean to be flip, but when you felt the call in your heart to cover, I don’t imagine it was specified to be a certain color, fabric, or style, was it? Wear a fashionable scarf over part of your head- like a large head or hair band. It would be a start. Perhaps your family is worried about you sporting some metallic-thread lace scarf, with a giant comb tiara holding it place that instead of something simply and reverant

 

[heart4home]

In the Novus Ordo Mass Jesus is made present at the consecration of the bread and the wine - it becomes His Body and Blood.

I attend my parish Novus Ordo Mass on weekdays and Sundays, and it is reverent.

You are right. I never meant to imply that there is anything wrong with the Ordinary Form of the Mass. Please forgive me if it came across that way. Obviously we are still receiving Jesus’ Body and Blood.

But for example at the closest parish that we only attend rarely when time, weather, health keep us from traveling the further distance, there are no kneelers, so of course nobody ever kneels. Before Mass starts, right up until the priest actually comes in the back everybody in the Church moves around freely from one row to another, chatting very loudly, so it is hard to pray or spend time focusing on God. During the time for offering Peace to each other many of the parishoners run all over the Church from one side to the other hugging each other. The Tabernacle is also off to the side and the music is very modern.

None of these things are necessarily wrong, but it is just not an atmosphere that is very conducive to worship, at least for me.

 

[heart4home]

I’m praying that you find peace. It seems that you are searching for a time that was simpler and when there were fewer choices, especially where the Church is concerned.

Yes, perhaps this is it.

I realize that no one time period in history had it all, but yes I do wish for simpler times, where most shared a common belief of what was true and good and right and easily agreed on what wasn’t. Heck, maybe the majority does actually agree, and I am just one of the few that struggles with the way things are.

 

[Dorothy]

You are right. I never meant to imply that there is anything wrong with the Ordinary Form of the Mass. Please forgive me if it came across that way. Obviously we are still receiving Jesus’ Body and Blood.

But for example at the closest parish that we only attend rarely when time, weather, health keep us from traveling the further distance, there are no kneelers, so of course nobody ever kneels. Before Mass starts, right up until the priest actually comes in the back everybody in the Church moves around freely from one row to another, chatting very loudly, so it is hard to pray or spend time focusing on God. During the time for offering Peace to each other many of the parishoners run all over the Church from one side to the other hugging each other. The Tabernacle is also off to the side and the music is very modern.

None of these things are necessarily wrong, but it is just not an atmosphere that is very conducive to worship, at least for me.

I agree that the behavior you described is a lack of reverence, and is distracting. The congregation needs to do their talking and greeting outside, or in the hall after Mass. Our new pastor has something going on in the hall after the Mass, so we can get to know one another. He comes around and chats with us as well.
His homilies at Mass are very challenging…exactly what we need.

 

[Dorothy]

If I could just point out something. My apologies if it’s not particularly helpful.

The Mass that is celebrated in the majority of parishes can certainly be called a Novus Ordo Mass. Having said that, that particular phrase carries a certain amount of baggage, since many quasi-schismatic traditionalists will purposely use such a term to disparage the Mass. It’s best, IMO, simply to refer to it as the Ordinary Form, as Pope Benedict XVI did. This phrase instantly communicates what you’re talking about, and you’re not using language that individuals who are often disobedient to the post-Conciliar Magisterium insist on using.

I would also like to point out something else.

Very often, people who attend the traditional Latin Mass do so because they prefer it, because they see in it an elevated sacredness, and because they find it more beautiful. I think there’s nothing at all wrong with that sort of attitude, provided it doesn’t lead to pride, and provided it is rooted in the proper obedience to the Church.

BUT … I want to point out an irony, and the irony is that, very often, that sort of mentality is actually Modernistic. When people put their own impulses and subjective feelings ahead of the authority of the Church, and when such feelings become the norm of faith for them, then they are simply Modernists.

People can be liberals and do all sorts of things that can be frustrating to obedient Catholics, and the root cause of their behavior is simply that they are Modernists. On the other had, folks can be quite reactionary, and can basically live out their lives sitting on the border between preferring traditional devotion and implicit Sedeprivationism. They, just like the liberals, are motivated by basic Modernistic impulses, as described above.

So, I do urge caution, and I do urge you to put first your faith, and not simply your feelings or emotions. God will get nothing out of your attending the Extraordinary form if you are doing so for the wrong reasons.

Thank you for your insights!

 

[OraLabora]

I agree that the behavior you described is a lack of reverence, and is distracting. The congregation needs to do their talking and greeting outside, or in the hall after Mass. Our new pastor has something going on in the hall after the Mass, so we can get to know one another. He comes around and chats with us as well.
His homilies at Mass are very challenging…exactly what we need.

It’s odd, in our parish, there are 4 churches that merged to form one parish. One I never attend but have often attended the other 3. In two of them, the church is so quiet you can hear a pin drop, just before Mass. All you hear is people shuffling in, dropping coins in the offering box for the missalettes, and moving to their pews where everyone drops on their knees and prays until the cantor starts for the entrance procession.

At the other one, in a separate village 10 km away, it’s mayhem, everyone moving around talking, etc. Oddly, they do the same at my wife’s Anglican parish in the same town. At first I thought it was an “Anglican thing” but realized that the Catholic church was the same.

I don’t think the form of the Mass would change this. People who go to the EF today (and the priests that celebrate it) are there because they crave that extra reverence, which I can find at the local monastic OF Mass (complete with my beloved Gregorian chant); in Montreal, in the OF, it can be found at the Notre-Dame Basilica, St-Joseph’s Oratory, or Mary Queen of the World cathedral, albeit with polyphony rather than chant.

If the EF became the new(old) OF, I suspect that the general mayhem we see here and there in our parishes would simply transfer to it. People are human and they won’t stop being so if the Mass changes.

I also don’t for one believe that people were extra reverent in the EF. I have only vague memories of the pre-conciliar Mass (I was born in 1958), and I recall or have had my parents remind me of men going out for a smoke, people being there only because they “had to”, people praying the rosary (which I still see in the OF) rather than following the Mass, etc. True we were a more homogeneous and conformist society then which is probably why people remember it as a more obedient setting for the Mass. Alas times have changed, and I doubt switching completely back to the old form of the Mass would “put the genie back into the bottle” as far as human obedience goes. We are the product of our times.

 

[ProVobis]

Alas times have changed, and I doubt switching completely back to the old form of the Mass would “put the genie back into the bottle” as far as human obedience goes. We are the product of our times.

Couldn’t the same thing have been said right before the Council of Trent convened?

 

[Nitor]

I’ve followed the discussion for a while now, because it’s very interesting to me. Thanks for all the (name removed by moderator)ut!

Heart4home, if you feel you want to be veiled at Mass, how about a headband? There are lots of beautiful headbands for exactly this occasion in various online stores and maybe your family would be more comfortable with that?

At our parish one woman wears a chapel veil and various women wear hats, but most women are not covered.

Also it is very interesting to me what you all write about the people’s behavior before and during Mass. At our place it is considered disrespectful to go around and chat before Mass, so it’s very quiet and most people are kneeling and praying before Mass starts. Plus almost every one is kneeling before Holy Communion. Those who don’t kneel usually have reasons for that (age, pregnancy, health, whatever).

However, we don’t have any EF around here, so I have never attended any Latin Mass in my entire life.

 

[two1176]

The Traditional Mass is much more reverent then the Novus Ordo. You don’t have to worry about wimpy sing along hymns and the priest making bad jokes and unnecessary comments. The new Mass is very feminized and focus is on the community rather than on God.The Traditional Mass is slower and the quiet helps you focus on what is taking place on the altar. After attending the Traditional Mass, the new Mass feels rushed and watered down Theologically. Not to mention Protestant.

 

[OraLabora]

The Traditional Mass is much more reverent then the Novus Ordo. You don’t have to worry about wimpy sing along hymns and the priest making bad jokes and unnecessary comments. The new Mass is very feminized and focus is on the community rather than on God.The Traditional Mass is slower and the quiet helps you focus on what is taking place on the altar. After attending the Traditional Mass, the new Mass feels rushed and watered down Theologically. Not to mention Protestant.

I suggest you read up on forum rules.

 

[ccmcmg]

but attend the Novus Ordo Mass.

I have always craved reverence in the Mass, and believe it is proper for women to cover their heads, but unless God intervenes I will not be able to get my husband to embrace Mass in the Extraordinary Form, and besides it is only offered once per month were we live at a different parish further than our own which we already drive 45 minutes to, passing by the very liberal parish that is only minutes from our home.

If I were to cover my head, I would be the only one in the parish and my husband and older teens / young adult children would be so uncomfortable that I don’t think they’d come with me. We are a large family that still has several younger children and I just wish it could be different.

I can say our priest is more traditional than others in the area, and does add in some Latin phrases, but obviously it is still a Novus Ordum Mass.

We kneel for the consecration, but many stand after receiving. I sometimes feel unsure what we are to do as it seems to show a lack of unity with some standing and some kneeling, but our family does usually continue to kneel.

I guess I just crave the traditionalism that I read about in the Saints lives, or on other traditional Catholic family blogs, but don’t know how to achieve it in my situation, other than to keep praying.

Not even sure why I’m posting, other than it’s been on my heart a lot lately and I could use some encouragement that God understands.

I’m a traditional Catholic. I’m thinking you mean ‘traditionalist’. I carry Catholic tradition/Tradition close to my heart, and I attend (and love) the Ordinary Form of the Mass. It inspires me. It fills my heart and soul. It can be everything I want, need and expect from Mass. The Saints worshipped the same God I do, received the same Eucharist that I received, and although our lives are different, we are still the same in being Catholic.

I kneel at the proper times; I do the gestures during Mass that I learned from my mother. I do prefer the Ordinary Form, but have attended the EF on occasion. I still participated in Mass, but I am able not only to ‘get’ more out of the OF Mass, I’m also able to ‘give’ more. There are differences that I love between the two, as well as some I don’t love; what matters is that I love Christ with my whole heart and soul. I’m considering veiling, but in the meantime, I often put my hair up or wear a headband.

I recommend kneeling at the proper times as you are doing. The Mass is not about ‘community’ insofar that we need to show unity with each other; we need to show unity and respect to our Lord first, which is by kneeling, and not holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer.

The Traditional Mass is much more reverent then the Novus Ordo. You don’t have to worry about wimpy sing along hymns and the priest making bad jokes and unnecessary comments. The new Mass is very feminized and focus is on the community rather than on God.The Traditional Mass is slower and the quiet helps you focus on what is taking place on the altar. After attending the Traditional Mass, the new Mass feels rushed and watered down Theologically. Not to mention Protestant.

I disagree with your ‘facts’, but I respect that you have your own opinion. But let’s remember it’s just that…opinion. I love the Ordinary Form and as mentioned above, am inspired and fulfilled by it, but most of all, by the Body and Blood of Christ, which is the same received in either EF or OF. The Ordinary Form Masses I attend do not focus on community (for me) but on the Lord. I don’t hold hands, I kneel and pray at the proper times, and do all that is asked of me, and hopefully more.

 

[TimothyH]

but attend the Novus Ordo Mass.

I have always craved reverence in the Mass, and believe it is proper for women to cover their heads, but unless God intervenes I will not be able to get my husband to embrace Mass in the Extraordinary Form, and besides it is only offered once per month were we live at a different parish further than our own which we already drive 45 minutes to, passing by the very liberal parish that is only minutes from our home.

If I were to cover my head, I would be the only one in the parish and my husband and older teens / young adult children would be so uncomfortable that I don’t think they’d come with me. We are a large family that still has several younger children and I just wish it could be different.

I can say our priest is more traditional than others in the area, and does add in some Latin phrases, but obviously it is still a Novus Ordum Mass.

We kneel for the consecration, but many stand after receiving. I sometimes feel unsure what we are to do as it seems to show a lack of unity with some standing and some kneeling, but our family does usually continue to kneel.

I guess I just crave the traditionalism that I read about in the Saints lives, or on other traditional Catholic family blogs, but don’t know how to achieve it in my situation, other than to keep praying.

Not even sure why I’m posting, other than it’s been on my heart a lot lately and I could use some encouragement that God understands.

***Love does not insist on its own way *(1 Corinthians 13:5)

-Tim-

 

[CuriousMike]

One REALLY BIG thing to remember if you are interested in Catholicism is this simple guideline of rules from FishEaters:
fisheaters.com/abouttheforum.html#radtrad

Whether one’s preference is the Novus Ordo (Ordinary Form) or the Tridentine (Extraordinary Form), is not necessarily relevant: Jesus is still Really, Truly and Substantially present in the Tabernacle, and in the hosts and wine.
It IS His Body and Blood.

What is different between the two services is perhaps the types of people that attend. The more faithful may attend the Tridentine craving a more elaborate and descriptive liturgy; Many say that in translating Latin → English, you loose a lot of the description and meaning as English, unlike Latin, has very few terms for similar things.
Therefore, the less faithful may be happy with what they have. They are human, and may not have been properly educated. It not necessarily their fault they are irreverent or talk loudly at times.

Its a shame one of the posts from earlier were deleted, (however) the Tridentine form is NOT superior. Nor are the people. We’re all sinners.
However, some people prefer peace and quiet in their services, while others love being lifted up to God through more contemporary hymns. Thats the difference, and its a personal choice. Each of us find God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit in different ways. We cannot put any into a “box,” as it were.

In my opinion, that is the ‘gist’ of what many people who love the Tridentine form are trying to get at.

Its not that any particular form is “better,” per se, but rather how each of us worships Him. So in that sense, someone who craves Traditional Catholicism might be better able to connect themselves with God, than say in a Ordinary Form service. It works both ways, too.

However, as Catholics, we aren’t necessarily restricted to HOW we should worship, within the bounds of reason. Your witness at a Church regularly celebrating the Ordinary Form may well encourage others to pose questions or investigate privately; Strengthening their faith and developing their own witness!
If the true reason you do this is because you want to pay God as much respect as possible, I think it would be commendable to do it at WHATEVER Church you attend. You SHOULD NOT be ashamed of YOUR faith - Especially if you are not breaking Church Law.

 

[anonymous_in_fl]

A headcovering can be a hat, scarf tied under the chin or behind the neck; a veil is not the only option. The majority of women in the US prior to the 1970’s wore hats as headcoverings. I believe a hat would not “stick out” or be as obvious as a veil.

 

[Nitor]

That’s right, that’s why I suggested a headband. That’s how I do it.

 

[ProVobis]

Whether one’s preference is the Novus Ordo (Ordinary Form) or the Tridentine (Extraordinary Form), is not necessarily relevant: Jesus is still Really, Truly and Substantially present in the Tabernacle, and in the hosts and wine.
It IS His Body and Blood.

If your only reason for coming to Mass is to receive communion, then any valid Mass would fulfill that desire. But that shouldn’t be the only reason, nor is it even required. Only the priest’s communion is required. And interestingly enough, it’s there but you don’t hear the priest’s communion formula (“May the Body/Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ preserve my soul unto life everlasting”) in the OF, which I don’t quite understand. If there’s one part of the Mass which should be audible, it seems that would be it.

As for preference, that word becomes meaningless if they’re not available. Just sayin…