Was it wrong to try to kill Hitler?

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so… what do you think about killing abortionists, who also kill millions? do you think this is a serious crime in the eyes of God???
Well that is a bit different, as you say there are multiple arbortionists, so more people who would die, also since we are leaving in a democracy there is still the peaceful way of voting for someone who wants to outlaw arbortion (and if there is no such person you still have the right to candidate yourself) while in the 3rd Reich Hitler had dictatorial powers meaning he could arrest everyone for anything and punish how he wanted without having to discuss it with anybody.
 
Well that is a bit different, as you say there are multiple arbortionists, so more people who would die, also since we are leaving in a democracy there is still the peaceful way of voting for someone who wants to outlaw arbortion (and if there is no such person you still have the right to candidate yourself) while in the 3rd Reich Hitler had dictatorial powers meaning he could arrest everyone for anything and punish how he wanted without having to discuss it with anybody.
you seem to think that murdering adult Jews is worse than murdering unborn babies…

(i said Seem to)
 
This was rumored for years:

cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=14531
New evidence that Hitler plotted to kill Pius XII

The newspaper of the Italian bishops conference has published new evidence that Hitler’s security forces had planned to either kidnap or kill Pope Pius XII.

It has long been conjectured that Hitler had ordered the SS commander in Italy, General Karl Wolf, to seize the Vatican and take the Pope, Zenit reports.

New evidence published today by Avvenire now points to the role of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt (the Third Reich’s main security office) in devising a plot to take out the Pope…
 
It is always wrong to kill; Even if you and your family are being killed. Jesus said we must love our enemies as he love us. Now killing an abortions is just as wrong as killing Hitler. sure there killing people daily but that doesn’t make it any more justifiable to kill them. The same goes for any murder, if you kill them then you are no better than them. By killing them you are stopping any chance they have at redemption.

Now if i had a chance to stop Hitler i would probably have tried to incarcerate him. as crazy as it sounds i would try to help him to see all the evil he has brought to the world. maybe the same tactic could be used with abortion doctors who refuse to stop there practice.

Also Hitlers intervention in military operations was one of the big reasons the war came to such a quick close. If it wasn’t for him the Germans would have defeated the British, conquered the Russians and probably win the war.

HickmanJosh
 
I have to disagree with HickmanJosh. It is not always wrong to kill; and to say that it is wrong to kill even if you and your family are being killed is frankly just silly. A Christian can act in self defence. Further, Saint Augustine wrote about and defended the idea of a “Just War”

If it is wrong to defend oneself and one’s family, then surely it would be even more wrong (according to this pacifist nonsense) to attempt to strike or hit others with a weapon, especially when they were not attacking you? Yet this is exactly what Our Lord did, as recorded in each of the 4 Gospels, Matthew, Ch 21, Mark, Ch 11, Luke, Ch 19, John, Ch2 "And (Jesus) found in the temple those that sold oxen, and sheep, and doves, and the changers of money sitting: and when He (Jesus) had made a scourge out of small cords, He drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers money and overthrew the tables …

There is evil in the world that shoud be, and must be stood up to. Hitler was an example of such evil, and to have killed him, after he had made his wicked intentions clear, would have been no crime or sin in my view.

Dying for your faith or being a martyr is a completely different matter than defending yourself, or fighting for your faith, opposing evil and wicked regimes.

God bless,

Jimmy Two Guns
 
By the way, I’m not saying it’s right to kill, or kidnap,or in any way harm abortion doctors, the opposit is true. There are other legal non violent methods that can be used. With Hitler, there was no other option. He was untouchable by law, by demo, by anything other than taking him out! It’s a great pity he wasn’t.
 
One must be careful in the distinction between “killing” and “murder”.
Murder is a legal concept to be established by the court.
Some killings are certainly not murder, at law: the killing of enemy combatants in war, for example.
Hitler, as head of the German government (and, by extension, the military) was effectively an enemy combatant, in the same way as the President of the USA, as Commander-in-Chief, was to the Germans. The killing of either by the enemy would have been a justifiable killing in the context of war.
Other non-murder killings are: manslaughter; negligence occasioning death; accidental death (on the sporting field, for example, or just an unavoidable accident); self-defence or defence of another; and (I hate to say it) abortion.
There’s a quite a lot of confusion about the meaning of homicide: homicide is the killing of a human being by a human being. It includes all the shades of murder and all the other types of killing mentioned above, plus suicide. Homicide and murder are not synonymous, despite what you’ve seen on TV.
And, naturally, it depends of the country and/or state and/or jurisdiction.

(to declare an interest: I used to be a cop here in NSW, Australia)
 
would you personally have attempted to kill Hitler if you knew you would get away with it??
If I was an American or French Soldier at the time, I absolutely would have killed Adolph Hitler given the chance. As far as Mr. Tiller: NO! We can’t as Pro-Lifers advocate such killing. We are no better than the abortionists. Do I think that it is Ironic that he was murdered? Yes. Irony is interesting isn’t it.
 
As a former defence lawyer who used to practise here in Scotland, I agree with Hansard who gave a very comprehensive and clear reply to this question.
 
Jesus set an example of non-violence. When he was arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane and Peter cut the Soldiers ear of Jesus healed him and said thous who live by the sword die by the sword. I am not saying total non-violence is always the answer. i am saying just because someone has a grave sin doesn’t make it any more justifiable to kill them. and that deadly force should be the very last resort.
Code:
 Sure when he was in the temple the was angry and threw over tables but he didn't physically hurt anyone did he?
We must always stand up to evil in this world but killing people wont fix it. ST Augustine’s Just war is a good concept but how are we going to determine if a war is just or not?

I am not a pacifist but i am not about to start advocating violence to answer the worlds problems.

HickmanJosh
 
This was rumored for years:

cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=14531
New evidence that Hitler plotted to kill Pius XII

The newspaper of the Italian bishops conference has published new evidence that Hitler’s security forces had planned to either kidnap or kill Pope Pius XII.

It has long been conjectured that Hitler had ordered the SS commander in Italy, General Karl Wolf, to seize the Vatican and take the Pope, Zenit reports.

New evidence published today by Avvenire now points to the role of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt (the Third Reich’s main security office) in devising a plot to take out the Pope…
wow I’m so surprised…

that maniac wanted to kill everyone…

and tiller killed 66,000… and he gets people virtually crying over him… Go be figuring… :whacky:
 
Well that is a bit different, as you say there are multiple arbortionists, so more people who would die, also since we are leaving in a democracy there is still the peaceful way of voting for someone who wants to outlaw arbortion (and if there is no such person you still have the right to candidate yourself) while in the 3rd Reich Hitler had dictatorial powers meaning he could arrest everyone for anything and punish how he wanted without having to discuss it with anybody.
if you were unborn, you would not want people to resort to peaceful means… try to change the law, etc… So far that’s taken… hmm… 36 yrs??? and still Roe v Wade lives on…

bet you’re glad you’re not an unborn human…
 
I’m not advancing violence as the solution to the world’s problems. Christ is the solution to those. But there are times when, as Christians, violence can be legitimately used.

When Christ told Peter to put up his sword and healed the servants ear, He was about to be arrested and die on the cross. This was part of God’s plan for the salvation of the world, and not merely a direction not to fight. Christ said that he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword. Living by the sword is not what we are talking about in this thread but defending our families and our faith.

The account in the Gospels about Christ “cleansing the temple” is in all 4 Gospels. In John’s gospel Ch 2:15-17 the scripture states:-

“And after He had made a scourge of small cords, (a whip with knots tied in it) He drove them all (merchants, moneychangers mentioned earlier) out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise” Do you really think that nobody was hit in the course of this commotion, as Christ with a whip drove the merchants out?

From this part of John’s Gospel we know that his disciples were present and witnessed what happened, and at Ch2 V 17 (KJV) we are told "And the disciples remembered that it was written, “The zeal of thy house has eaten me up”

This is a clear reference to Psalms 69:9, where we read:- "For the zeal of thine house
hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me. (KJV)

And also a reference to Psalms 119:139:- "My zeal hath consumed me, because mine enemies have forgotten thy words. (KJV)

In other words Jesus was consumed with righteous anger against the enemies of God who were clearly acting in direct contravention what God had instructed and so reacted in this way.

God bless

JTG’S
 
Political correctness has gone mad. We are systematically spoon fed from an early age the ideology that to lie down and let ourselves be walked over is somehow right!

Sermons and references to sacred scripture are used to back this up. (Except obviously when our country is invading another country for oil, diamonds, gold or whatever, then it’s seemingly perfectly OK, but for some reason this doesn’t seem to translate to our own lives on a personal level)

As a lawyer, with regard to the supposedly religious and moral basis of our laws, I’ve read some very interesting research carried out by a Christian writer. I myself am Catholic and this author is of the Protestant persuasion, but what I read crossed denominational boundaries and indeed is well worthy of consideration by non religious members and I agree with his conclusions to a great extent.

When Christ was on Earth, Judea was a hotbed (no change there then) with an oppressed and taxed population and an occupying oman force. It’s interesting to note that amongst the 12 Apostles Jesus chose along with Peter, James and John who were fishermen, Matthew who was a tax collector for the Romans, was also a man, “Simon the Zealot”.

Now the “Zealots” were essentially an Israeli guerrilla group of
freedom fighters who attacked the occupying Roman forces at any opportunity; a sort of Judean equivalent of the Provisional IRA.

The local people were oppressed and on one ocassion, the Pharisees, the ruling class, who wanted to keep peace with Rome at all costs, asked
Christ if they should pay their taxes to Caesar or not. The Bible states they thought they’d catch Him out. If He said “yes”, the
people would disapprove. if He said “No”, the Pharisees would have something to pin on Him and tell tales about.

But instead He requested a coin and when given one asked those around Him whose head was on it? He was told “Caesar’s” Then Christ replied, “So give to Caesar what he’s due, and give to God what he’s due” This was a truly brilliant answer leaving the Pharisees dumbfounded.

However it has since been taken as proof that people should give in, be submissive, pay your taxes to any government, Hitler … who-ever, basically do what you are told!!!

But bear in mind, Jesus knew what the Pharisees were up to. Plus He knew His audience comprised people these hypocrites wouldn’t even
touch. The poor, the oppressed, the sick, the lame, the protitutes, the downtrodden, the ordinary people, including fishermen and also
(as was one of his disciples) members of the Zealots.

So, did He say, “Yes, pay your taxes to this tyrant like good people should?” No! He did not! Instead he told them clearly, but cleverly to “Give Caesar what he’s due!”

Now, what d’you think the ordinary people thought Caesar Augustus was really due? This disgusting cruel, sexual deviant and pervert; this meglomaniac who claimed divinity, who killed his family, invaded Judea, killed and taxed the poor people in evry country he could? Certainly not their hard earned cash.

Christ’s reply was not meek and mild submission, but instead very carefully worded to play the pharisees, who he called snakes, at
their own game!
 
Again, we’re always being told that Christ said we should “Turn the other cheek”. This has been interpreted that we should just allow
anyone who fancies to hit us repeatedly until they’re bored. However, there is a totally alternative interpretation to Christ’s words.

The Jewish Pharisees believed if Israel kept the strict Mosaic Law for 24 hours, the Kingdom would come on Earth. But in their conceit
they considered the vast majority of people couldn’t keep the law to this extent so decided not to include them in the select few.
(Namely themselves). This inferior, but vast majority consisted of “sinners”, comprising the ordinary, the poor, cripples, the sick, women, etc, who didn’t count. They counted so little that when a Pharisee hit one of these inferiors, slaves, servants, even their wives, they struck with their open left hand as a sign of disrespect.

Only when fighting one another as equals did they strike on both sides of the face. Now, think again about who Christ was speaking to. His audience was still the ordinarly poor people, the hard done by, the sick, prostitutes, etc and they all knew that when struck by some superior with his left hand, the person hit them on the right cheek. (obviously)

It’s a popular misconception, that Christ said to “turn the other cheek” but He did not! He specifically states (St Matthew’s Gospel 5 v 3 “If anyone slaps your RIGHT cheek let him slap your LEFT cheek too”. This act of allowing the person to strike you on both sides of the face was very symbolic as it meant that person was treating you as an equal, which is the last thing the pharisees wanted, and so you rose in status and if wronged had legal redress. You were no longer inferior. Of course the Pharisees were furious at this!

Similarly when Christ was talking to the people He stated (Matthew 5 v 41) “If one of the occupation troops (the Romans) forces you to
carry his pack a mile, carry it two miles”

Again, this is taken to mean that oppressed people should buckle under, be submissive, etc, however according to Roman law at the time, whilst Roman soldiers were allowed to pick on a person and insist he carry their pack for one mile, that was it, one mile and only ONE mile! That was the law! You see the Roman hierarchy did not mind the people being “used” to an extent, but did not want them “abused” or given great cause for complaint, as Judea was a hotbed of rebellion, and they did not want to
provoke an already oppressed populace and push them over the top.

Accordingly, if a soldier made a person carry his pack further than the legally prescribed limit, then that soldier was liable to be court-martialled and whipped for stirring things up.

You can imagine Christ telling the crowd this and them all smiling at the thought of saying to the soldier after being forced to go a mile, “It’s okay, I’ll carry your pack further” and trotting off as the soldier starts to panic and runs after them regretting he ever forced the person in the first place, trying to get his pack back from this very helpful person, before he (the soldier) gets a beating for bullying!

These are just a few thoughts, but in my opinion they ring true about Christ and His claims and do not talk of someone who taught us to give into bullies and oppressors and become doormats, but of someone who cared for people so much that as we know he died for them. Let’s face it, the Pharisees and other hypocrites (MP’S) didn’t want him dead for nothing!

God bless.

J
 
The famous Hilaire Belloc, who was a great defender of the Catholic Faith, politician, writer, and poet once wrote this little ditty.

“Pale Ebenezer”, thought it wrong to fight.
“Roaring Bill”, who killed him, thought it right. 😉
 
Now, what d’you think the ordinary people thought Caesar Augustus was really due? This disgusting cruel, sexual deviant and pervert; this meglomaniac who claimed divinity, who killed his family, invaded Judea, killed and taxed the poor people in evry country he could? Certainly not their hard earned cash.

Christ’s reply was not meek and mild submission, but instead very carefully worded to play the pharisees, who he called snakes, at
their own game!
yes, Jesus was good at that kind of thing… and being God he knows everything about us lowly sinful humans…

i think people are still trying to put words in Jesus’s mouth… to justify what thye are doing…

I mean, people even justify homosexuality, for crying out loud and use the bible of all things to do it…

they explain away things like Sodom & Gom… and 1st Chapt of Romans…

that shows you how twisted people can be… to mess wtih the very Word of God…

just so they can have what they feel is “fun”…

I don’t know… it seems like certain things like homosexuality are… like… i mean, do you have to be a theological expert to figure out that that is NOT a good thing???

But thank God for the theological experts we have in the Church… because we humans really ARE lost without Christ and the Word… We can’t figure out things on our own… If we could Jesus would’t have had to come…

there but for the grace of God… :eek: :eek:

hate to think what i would be/do if it weren’ t for the Church…
 
JTG’s you are right in saying we should defend our faith and family’s from violence.

But i must ask you is there an exception noted in the six commandment for war? it says plainly “thou shalt not kill.”

i am sorry but i am just afraid that if we start to Justify violence then things could get out of hand. :o

i would also like to add that even if people like Tiller and Hitler are assassinated then more people would simply rise and continue there work. How many crazy nazis would have been willing to take his place and how many abortion doctors are there out there. as long as money is involved and a chance for personal gain then these things will keep happening no matter how many people die.

also righteous anger is ok as long as it is used within reason.

Prayer is the best form of defense:thumbsup:

HickmanJosh
 
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