Was Jesus’ predestined to death? That wasn’t avoidable?

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You really don’t like what I have said, it appears.

I don’t respond to challenges like you put down; guess you will have to read other posts I have made.

As I noted, God is not in time - and that is Church teaching.

As noted, speaking of what God did first and then second is using “time language” to describe a mystery, as God is not in time. It is an attempt to describe as best we can a mystery. It is like thinking that we have it down pat when we describe the Eucharist as “transubstantiation”, a philosophical term. Asking me if I accept the Church’s teaching on the matter misses entirely what I am saying.
 
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otjm said:
You really don’t like what I have said, it appears.

I don’t respond to challenges like you put down; guess you will have to read other posts I have made.
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So I guess that’s no.
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otjm:
As I noted, God is not in time - and that is Church teaching.

As noted, speaking of what God did first and then second is using “time language” to describe a mystery, as God is not in time. It is an attempt to describe as best we can a mystery.
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All of creation by definition, involves time which is a creation. Point being, God being outside of time, doesn’t predestine us in time, without considering our free will which He gave all of us to use as an important component of who we are. While He knows in advance what everyone will choose till their death, He doesn’t predestine without taking our choices made freely, into consideration. IOW no one goes to hell capriciously by Gods predestination without their will, being freely operational.
 
And as I noted, you seem to have no comprehension of what I am speaking about. As I noted, I am not going to address your question; you can guess yes or no and it is irrelevant to what I have said. If you choose to try to force and answer out of me, I choose to not play your game.

Have a great New Year. God bless.
 
But, why were we needed to be created as the descendant of Adam and Eve? Did you chose to inherit the effect of the fruit etc, before you born?
 
Needy1 said:
But, why were we needed to be created as the descendant of Adam and Eve? Did you chose to inherit the effect of the fruit etc, before you born?
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I am not sure what you mean by the need to be created.
God does not need us.

Some basic foundation stones:
We are created out of love not need.
We are created as unique individuals who are also part of the communion of saints. We are linked together with God and all of humanity. The welfare of one is the welfare of all.

So, as a human being, if I am to live out my vocation to love as I was created, I must claim my common humanity with all others. And that is what Christ does.
 
goout said:
I am not sure what you mean by the need to be created.
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I mean, God could have created us as whatever God want, like angels etc, but we were still born as the descendant of Adam so God did chose to create us as corrupted human, right? Why do we have to be born as the human which is inheriting the effect of the fruits?
 
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Jesus was executed by the lawful actions of the Roman State. Caiaphas and the others are guilty of giving false evidence to Pilot, leading to his conviction. They are culpable for their actions; Caiaphas were always free to not sin. Judas was always free to not betray Christ.

One of the great mysteries of the faith is God overcoming great evil to accomplish his will.
 
Was Jesus’ predestined to death? That wasn’t avoidable?

Very deep theological question.

One, if subscribing to the thinking of John Duns Scotus, might say that the death of Jesus was unavoidable, in that death follows all humans, and since Jesus was the Son of God, but incarnate, would experience death, whether through how it played out in the Gospels or otherwise…perhaps natural causes at a good old age?

Now before proclaiming such thought is heretical, lets go make an look at the writings of Scotus, who is probably only second to Bonaventure as the preeminent Franciscan theologian.

Scotus would claim, that because of the Father’s great love for us, His creation, he would have sent his Son to walk among man, as one of us, whether the Fall had occurred or not.

So, if there was no Fall of Man, and the Son had become the incarnate (Jesus), because of his human nature, biological death would have been an eventuality anyway.

Deep stuff, but sometimes that’s what the study of theology is all about…sometimes it makes us squirm!

Peace and all good!
 
Jesus’ death was avoidable because Jesus could of easily called on legions of angels when He got arrested while He was in the Garden of Gethsemane.
 
otjm said:
If you don’t have free will, then you cannot sin, as sin is a choice. With no free will, you have no choice.
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If you read my posts above, you will see that your definition of “Free Will” and the definition I was using are functionally different.
 
thebible said:
Jesus’ death was avoidable because Jesus could of easily called on legions of angels when He got arrested while He was in the Garden of Gethsemane.
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Yet He didn’t do that… and for good reason
 
All humans have free will. Knowing ahead of time how someone will choose does not affect their choice. If your friend is going to by a car and that friend’s favorite color is red, does that mean that they had no free will to choose any other color? Free will is not a competition between ideas of equal import or value.

God sent His Son to die - the only baby ever born specifically to die. Ponder the love behind that. Neither God nor man was bound by this plan - it only reflects on the love and omniscience of God. As to Christ’s death, no blood atonement, no salvation. Think of it this way: “No greater love has a man than to lay his life down for a friend”

That was our Lord speaking of Himself in relation to us, and as an example to us.
 
Needy1 said:
If so, Caiaphas, Judas and some Israelites had no free will to prevent it? Then, would God accuse them for the murder? For they had no free will? I guess?
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Don’t confuse predestination with foreknowledge.
 
Calvinists believe that predestination excludes free will. We believe that predestination includes free will.
 
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