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rinnie
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I never said that I said the CC was started at the day of Pentecost by the Power of the HS.
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rinnie
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Right here it is you who stated that the CC was established long After Pentecost. I said the CC was established at Pentecost.
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Right here it is you who stated that the CC was established long After Pentecost. I said the CC was established at Pentecost.
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paul_c
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I would agree that you can not get to heaven based solely on your works. This is covered in the sermon on the mount, where those that pray, fast and give alms for public aclaim have already recieved their reward. But those that did those same things for the love of God, were indeed rewarded by the Father. And that’s the rub, works alone can’t save you. But works done out of love are required to demonstrate that you are following the Lord.
Look, of course we don’t believe in justification by Faith alone. The Apostles and Jesus both taught to the contrary. St. Paul said in 1Corinthians 13, If I have faith enough to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. St. James, directly answering the heritical view that Faith alone was sufficient spent half of the second chapter of his epistle saying mutliple times in multiple ways that Faith without works is Dead. In matthew 7: 21-23, Jesus said that not all that call him Lord will achieve eternal life, but only those that do the will of God. In Matthew 25 31-46, He says that at the last judgment those that carry out acts of mercy will be saved but those that don’t will be condemned. Sure there are verses that tell of the importance of Faith (because it is indeed important), but there are NONE that say you can be saved by Faith alone (because this is not true).
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paul_c
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I wouldn’t worry about that. Soc knows how to start another one.
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rinnie
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Exactly nothing in this world is possible without Grace. Gods grace alone is what puts our whole being into play. With Grace we acquire Faith and with faith we have works. And with Grace through faith and with good works all good things are possible. Without the grace of God nothing is possible.
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Exactly nothing in this world is possible without Grace. Gods grace alone is what puts our whole being into play. With Grace we acquire Faith and with faith we have works. And with Grace through faith and with good works all good things are possible. Without the grace of God nothing is possible.
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paul_c
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The purity of the Bible you say? They took 7 books OUT of the bible because they didn’t like the theology. and MARTIN LUTHER even added a few words to the New Testament which actually changed the meaning of St. Paul’s letter to fit Luther’s theology.
What do you describe as legalism in the Catholic church? The church simply is following its mandated form Jesus form Matthew 28:
18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”
It is teaching all nations to observe what Jesus commanded them to do. And note, this was verbal, not the written scripture. And also notice his promise to be with the Church to the end of the age.
sure, 2000 years is insignificant in the face of eternity. BUT, it is Significant because it means the church has been around since Jesus ascended to heaven. If you read Acts, even before Pentacost, Peter led the apostles and replaced Judas with Matthias. He was following Jesus commission to him in Matthew 16 (to build the church on St Peter) and John 21 (to feed his sheep).
I disagree. God does respect and love everyone. He gave us all free will and lets us use it He doesn’t force himself on anyone but lets us come to him willingly (or shun him as well). This is very respectful of creatures who are infinitely unworthy compared to God.
But you are wrong about the Catholic Church. Jesus set it up and looks over it. like it or not, every thing you know about Jesus comes from the Church, including the Bible you cling to. God also set up authority on earth. He told his disciples to follow the teachings of the high priests, even though they were corrupt because they sat on the Chair of Moses. Similarly, he set up St. Peter to run the church and told him that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church. Authority is needed to interpret scripture, Because Protestants respect no authority other than their own, there are counltess independent views of what scripture means. Since there is only one truth, you know that these are all independent views can not be all right.
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DerekD
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Concerning the ten commandment; when is the last time you kept the sabbath? When is the last time you told a “little” lie or exagerated the truth. The Bible says that those, like yourself, that live under the law will be judged by the law…good luck with that. You are so legalistic, you can’t even see it when you write.
Jesus said that if you foolow His two commandments, then the law is fulfilled. Unfortunately for mankind; even the saved are unable to live w/o sin, But a believer has an advocate with the Father who always makes intercession for us; what does a legal system have? A process by which you go to a priest, the sacrement of pennance; many times followed by acts of attrition - it is legalistic friend.
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DerekD
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How ironic; that is the same day the physical church of God was started.
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DerekD
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As I said before; you are a legalist and will be judged by the law. Read Acts 10 and better is Acts 11:
15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as {He did} upon us at the beginning. 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 “***Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as {He gave} to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” ***
Want to see how the apostles were saved? Hearing the gospel, believing, then receiving the Holy Spirit. You should make note that the Spirit of God is received at the momnet ones hear and BELIEVE; they believed on the sole basis of faith in the gospel…nothing more and nothing less and were sealed by the spirit of promise. Nothing legalistic; just pure grace.
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DerekD
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Wrong except from a legalist view point, but not from the gospels view. Luther added one word “alone” to a german translation and it did not change the meaning a single ioata; it did emphasize the meaning, but I would not have condoned adding to the Word; there was no point for Luther to do soo; for faith alone is obvious to believers.
The only people that can observe these things are those who are saved; the unsaved cannot. It may have been verbal then, but it is written now.
sure, 2000 years is insignificant in the face of eternity. BUT, it is Significant because it means the church has been around since Jesus ascended to heaven. If you read Acts, even before Pentacost, Peter led the apostles and replaced Judas with Matthias. He was following Jesus commission to him in Matthew 16 (to build the church on St Peter) and John 21 (to feed his sheep). You should go back and read carefully; it is God who chose, not Peter. Large oversite on your part. The church is built on the prophets and the apostles; Peter is one of many God used to “lay” the foundation, the foundation is Chrsit. You base you comment on the presumption that your church is the church of God, which is the church He selects and a case by case basis and not through a magisterium, that is pure invention and false IMO and AISI.
You have such a mixed theology and confused understanding of the church and of God; you do not know what you are speaking about concerning the Word of God; proably because you have never come into true repentace BEFORE God.
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joe370
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Soc, you said:
Good questions! Not sure how Evangelical Ed would answer.
Does this even make sense to anyone? Did Jesus not said I am the Church.
n eph 5:25 Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present to himself the church in splendor without spot or wrinkle or any such thing that she might be holy without blemish.
Now here is what I am hearing. Jesus died for the Church, became the Church and then left the Church? Is that what they are trying to say. IF so not only do I disagree, scripture sure does too.
It makes perfect sense. Yes, Jesus is the church to which he is the head and savior, and he is the builder:
“I will build my church.”
I’m not letting you off the hook that easy. LOL…Perhaps you can ask Ed and let me know. In the mean time, could you please give me the name of the man that built the C.C.
Good questions! Not sure how Evangelical Ed would answer.
Does this even make sense to anyone? Did Jesus not said I am the Church.
n eph 5:25 Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present to himself the church in splendor without spot or wrinkle or any such thing that she might be holy without blemish.
Now here is what I am hearing. Jesus died for the Church, became the Church and then left the Church? Is that what they are trying to say. IF so not only do I disagree, scripture sure does too.
It makes perfect sense. Yes, Jesus is the church to which he is the head and savior, and he is the builder:
“I will build my church.”
I’m not letting you off the hook that easy. LOL…Perhaps you can ask Ed and let me know. In the mean time, could you please give me the name of the man that built the C.C.
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joe370
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Hi Derek, you said:
Excuse me for putting my 2 cents in here…
Not at all; It’s good to meet you.
…but I beg to differ; the reformers brought back the purity of the gospel that was perverted by legalism. It is history repeating itself as the NT clearly demonstrates that legalism was pervasive among the Jews and the Jewish converts and had to be and continues to this day to be a problem.
**Could you please identify for me the reformed church, in the world today, that has infused Jesus’ church with the purity of the gospel that was perverted by legalism, and the time period when this happened?
**
To make a cliam that your church has been around 2 thousand years means little to nothing in the sight of God. That would be 2 days in His book.
**Yes, a thousands years is like a day to God; He exists outside of time and space. It’s Jesus’ church; he built it; I just belong to it. The fact that Jesus’ church was either born on Pentecost or the 10th century, or the 16th century, or the 20th century, “means little to nothing in the sight of God?” Is that what you are saying?
**
God is not a respector of anyone and His church has been around phiscally since the day of Pentecost and spiritually since before the foundation of the world; long before there was a Catholic Church.
**Novel perspective:
Please expound; I’m all ears!
Great to have you here at CAF.**
Excuse me for putting my 2 cents in here…
Not at all; It’s good to meet you.
…but I beg to differ; the reformers brought back the purity of the gospel that was perverted by legalism. It is history repeating itself as the NT clearly demonstrates that legalism was pervasive among the Jews and the Jewish converts and had to be and continues to this day to be a problem.
**Could you please identify for me the reformed church, in the world today, that has infused Jesus’ church with the purity of the gospel that was perverted by legalism, and the time period when this happened?
**
To make a cliam that your church has been around 2 thousand years means little to nothing in the sight of God. That would be 2 days in His book.
**Yes, a thousands years is like a day to God; He exists outside of time and space. It’s Jesus’ church; he built it; I just belong to it. The fact that Jesus’ church was either born on Pentecost or the 10th century, or the 16th century, or the 20th century, “means little to nothing in the sight of God?” Is that what you are saying?
**
God is not a respector of anyone and His church has been around phiscally since the day of Pentecost and spiritually since before the foundation of the world; long before there was a Catholic Church.
**Novel perspective:
- “For there is no respect of persons with God.” Acts 2:11 OK…What does this passage have to do with the question: give me the name of the man who built the C.C.?
Jesus said: I will build my church. - Jesus’ church has been around physically since the day of Pentecost.
- Jesus’ established church has been around "since before the foundation of the world, long before there was a C.C.
Please expound; I’m all ears!
Great to have you here at CAF.
**
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pneuma07
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Yes, it certainly makes things easy to stop worrying about what is true and just believe!
I was basically inviting to perceive that the point of view you are assuming, so to say as experiment, ie that Christ’s original apostolic model did not fail, keeps it simple, makes us free from postulating this and that in order to reject it.
And you will see good guys attacking the model, and the delegated legitimate christian authority presiding over the preservation and the development of the deposit of the faith, from every possible corner, with many different points of view and approaches, often insightful, often in contradiction with each other.
And you will see that catholic guys often do not have ready and appropriate answers.
But that does not mean at all that Catholicism doesn’t have that answer.
This thread will soon be over. I don’t know whether you want Ed and Fred to immediately open fire with a first broadside against your newly assumed point of view.
In Christ
p7
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joe370
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DerekD, you said to Paul:
**Wrong except from a legalist view point, but not from the gospels view. Luther added one word “alone” to a german translation and it did not change the meaning a single ioata; it did emphasize the meaning, but I would not have condoned adding to the Word; there was no point for Luther to do soo; for faith alone is obvious to believers.
**
I realize that this question is for Paul, and he is more than qualified to answer, but I must say just one thing: Speaking as a former Lutheran, in Martin Luthers German translation of the Bible, he took Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation and placed them at the end of the New Testament. He categorized them as inferior to the rest of the Bible. The book of James contradicted Luther’s principle of Justification by Faith Alone.
James 2:
“See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” “faith without works is dead.”
Rather than change his theology, Luther just denied that James the Apostle, was the author of James and removed it from his canon. He referred to the book of James as an “epistle of straw.” If he was right in doing so, why don’t protestants (especially Lutherans) - regardless of ilk, follow suit, and place these books at the end of the New Testament, and categorize them as inferior to the rest of the Bible?
Sorry Paul…it’s all yours.
**Wrong except from a legalist view point, but not from the gospels view. Luther added one word “alone” to a german translation and it did not change the meaning a single ioata; it did emphasize the meaning, but I would not have condoned adding to the Word; there was no point for Luther to do soo; for faith alone is obvious to believers.
**
I realize that this question is for Paul, and he is more than qualified to answer, but I must say just one thing: Speaking as a former Lutheran, in Martin Luthers German translation of the Bible, he took Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation and placed them at the end of the New Testament. He categorized them as inferior to the rest of the Bible. The book of James contradicted Luther’s principle of Justification by Faith Alone.
James 2:
“See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” “faith without works is dead.”
Rather than change his theology, Luther just denied that James the Apostle, was the author of James and removed it from his canon. He referred to the book of James as an “epistle of straw.” If he was right in doing so, why don’t protestants (especially Lutherans) - regardless of ilk, follow suit, and place these books at the end of the New Testament, and categorize them as inferior to the rest of the Bible?
Sorry Paul…it’s all yours.
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rinnie
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How ironic; that is the same day the physical church of God was started.
How can you say that? Ironic is when the opposite of what you say happens. How could that be with Jesus?
He said he would tear down the temple and re-build it in 3 days and he did. He died and rose again in 3 days thats his body the temple.
He promised his Apostles that he would send them the Advoate the HS to help them to lead the CC into all truth. It happened on Pentecost. How could that be ironic is beyond me.
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rinnie
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the Law of Moses.
Now I am only subject to God directly. Rom 3:20 The New Law
We are still subject to Gods law. Read rom. 3:20 Justified means made right with God. Clean from sin and to be made worthy of Gods promises.
We can never earn Justification through the law because the law is what tells us we are sinners.
Justification has been merited by the Passion of Christ. Its through Gods grace that we never deserved we were given righteousness we never could earn through the Law. Adam lost our grace for us. Jesus gave us our grace back.
Paul tells us we are Justified by faith apart from the works of law.
BUt I could be wrong but I think you are getting the works of the law of Moses and the Law of God confused real bad.
CCC 1963 (this us a shot version) The Law is holy spiritual and good yet still (name removed by moderator)erfect. Its like a teacher to show us what needs to be done. but does not have the grace of the HS to fulfill it.
According to St Paul it can disclose sin which constitutes a law of concupiscence in the human heart. But its only the first stage of the way to the kingdom.
The old law was the preparation for the Gospel.
The new Law is the Grace of the Holy Spirit.
But if you think that just because Jesus gave us help with Grace from the Holy Spirit we do not have to follow the ten commmandments you are sadly misled. Its Because of that grace we Can follow the ten commmandments.
Why do you think Jesus said I did not come to change it I came to fulfill it?
God Bless you brother, but you need to study the diffference between the Old law and the New Law. I think that would help you alot.
Also not that is anyones business but apart from being really sick with the flu. I have missed Church maybe 4 times in my life with no good excuse. Do I think that can help get me into heaven Heck yes!
Why? Simple. I am receiving the Eucharist. Everytime I receive the Body of Christ I receive Grace, and everytime I receive Grace it gives me more power to become a better person. The more Grace I receive and ask for. the less sin I commit. So does going to Church help me to enter heaven by special Graces from God. Oh Yes! Will it get me into heaven? Only God can answer that. But I will obey his commandments and accept the Free Grace his has to offer me in the Sacraments. That can only be found in the CC.
What are you talking about. I am a gentile I am not held responsible for the Old law. The New Covenant made us free from
the Law of Moses.
Now I am only subject to God directly. Rom 3:20 The New Law
We are still subject to Gods law. Read rom. 3:20 Justified means made right with God. Clean from sin and to be made worthy of Gods promises.
We can never earn Justification through the law because the law is what tells us we are sinners.
Justification has been merited by the Passion of Christ. Its through Gods grace that we never deserved we were given righteousness we never could earn through the Law. Adam lost our grace for us. Jesus gave us our grace back.
Paul tells us we are Justified by faith apart from the works of law.
BUt I could be wrong but I think you are getting the works of the law of Moses and the Law of God confused real bad.
CCC 1963 (this us a shot version) The Law is holy spiritual and good yet still (name removed by moderator)erfect. Its like a teacher to show us what needs to be done. but does not have the grace of the HS to fulfill it.
According to St Paul it can disclose sin which constitutes a law of concupiscence in the human heart. But its only the first stage of the way to the kingdom.
The old law was the preparation for the Gospel.
The new Law is the Grace of the Holy Spirit.
But if you think that just because Jesus gave us help with Grace from the Holy Spirit we do not have to follow the ten commmandments you are sadly misled. Its Because of that grace we Can follow the ten commmandments.
Why do you think Jesus said I did not come to change it I came to fulfill it?
God Bless you brother, but you need to study the diffference between the Old law and the New Law. I think that would help you alot.
Also not that is anyones business but apart from being really sick with the flu. I have missed Church maybe 4 times in my life with no good excuse. Do I think that can help get me into heaven Heck yes!
Why? Simple. I am receiving the Eucharist. Everytime I receive the Body of Christ I receive Grace, and everytime I receive Grace it gives me more power to become a better person. The more Grace I receive and ask for. the less sin I commit. So does going to Church help me to enter heaven by special Graces from God. Oh Yes! Will it get me into heaven? Only God can answer that. But I will obey his commandments and accept the Free Grace his has to offer me in the Sacraments. That can only be found in the CC.
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paul_c
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paul_c
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Derek,
I want to add a little to this.
First of all, you are being a bit judgemental, here. You really shouldn’t accuse people you don’t know of sinning.
As for the ten commandments. We are all still held to them if we want to enter eternal life. Have you never read Matthew 19:
16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"
I know that this doesn’t fit your Sola Fide theology, but the Truth is still the truth, whether we wish to ignore it or not…
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fhansen
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Yes, Catholic teachings are based on a law, the law of love. And you’d know it if you’ve experienced it. For example, the sacrament of Reconciliation-or penance- is filled with grace for one who’s recognized they’ve failed at living up to this law, and like Paul, know they need to continue to strive towards perfection to win the prize. Here they can realize forgiveness again- and again, and again, if need be -rising and falling, working out their salvation through this sacrament along with other graces received, however God chooses to grant them. The imputed righteousness doctrine is actually legalistic to the core-a sterile forensic declaration of ones righteousness with no real change-no molding of a new heart required, with mans’ cooperating in humility, as a part of becoming beings fit for-of being capable of seeing-God.
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paul_c
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