# Was Jesus deliberately ambiguous? #

[paul_c]

For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” ***The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, ***

How do I know for sure? See Romans 8 above and 1 John below

And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

This Is Written That You May Know

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that ***you may know that you have eternal life. ***

Eternal life is no guess work unless you are not a believer, one who rejects the gospel, such as you have already stated, or you are new to the faith and God has yet to grant that assurance, which is a blessing to those who walk by faith and obedience to King Jesus.

You read these Epistles very selectively, noting only those passages that seem to support your personal interpretation. This is the danger of personal interpretation - selective reading. You speak with contempt about the Church interpreting scripture for Catholics, but the church wrote the scripture and knows what it means and understands the context behind the writings. Why do you think its superior to try to understand it on your own. Do you really believe that you personally have more insight on the Bible than the Catholic Church?

As for Romans, have you ever read it in its entirety or do you just use bible tracts, which selectively pull out readings out of context which then miss the truth.
Have you seen how Roman’s starts: Here is the beginning of Chapter 2:
1 Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things.
2 We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true.
3 Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance?
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.

Does this sound like he’s saying that you can be saved once and for all by just believing in Christ? No. you must persevere in good works. What he is describing in Chapter 8 is part of a long several chapter discussion on why simply following the Jewish laws without Faith in Jesus is insufficient.

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If you think for yourself, then that is great; but when it comes to interpretation of scripture, you are not allowed to do that because your church is the only authority to interpret scripture and if you chose to you would be in violation of your church teaching on the subject, which is what i meant by my comment, but I did fail to be specific and apologize for that. This is why few Catholics actaully put emphasis on reading of Scripture, there is no incentive to do so. If you look around this forum you will see Catholics defending their church and others defending the Bible; interesting observation.

You know very little about what the Catholic church teaches, so perhaps it would be better for you to ask what the church teaches rather than to tell us what it teaches. We read the Scripture probably as much as you do. I personally read 5 chapters per day plus I hear 2-3 additional readings at daily mass and then whatever additional reading I do for apologetics. I’ve been reading the Bible daily since the gave me my first copy in 6th grade ccd class. Most Catholic apologists will use exclusively scripture in discussing theology and salvation with Protestants because it is accepted as a common denominator. As for the Catholic Church’s interpretation of scripture. At one point, I thought I could interpret scripture for myself and occasionally found myself in conflict with church teachings. I then took the time to understand why, and I found that in every case, the church had considered things that I had not. I learned to trust the church. After many years of this, I find that I am never in conflict now.

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Pick a doctrine; where do I start? Justification by faith alone; that is a good start. Your teaching is to put both santification and justification together like co-joined twins at the hip; this is not found in scripture. If it were, then there would be no reason to distinquish justification and santicifation in the Bible at all…would there?

You can look no futher than the Roman’s 2 quote above. Clearly, you must persevere in doing good works. And what is the reason to distinguish between sanctification and justification? In the end you will either have eternal life or you won’t and this will require you to be holy.

 

[paul_c]

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So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, ***Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy ***this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”

Who does the ordaining, man or God?

And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, {various} kinds of tongues.

This is what happens to those who have rejected the gospel of grace in favor of works; they cannot understand what the bible teaches by the power of the Holy Spirit and thus rely on the interpretation of men.

God works through men when appointing within the Church. In Acts, it is the apostles that baptize and lay on hands in healing and ordaining. There is no gospel or Grace or a Gospel of works. There is one gospel that was given to the Apostles to pass down through the ages. It is based on God’s grace, but requires men to do the works that those graces allow.

 

[DerekD]

. So, you are saying that faith alone in Christ, is all we need to be saved, with the exception of reading our bibles?

Reading the bible won’t save you either. Although it is the very voice of God and the Holy spirit can remove the veil of blindness to the gospel; but until one realizes how offensive they are to and against God; they will not cry our for His mercy and He will not remove the veil. Until you have been saved and received the Holy Spirit; one can read the Bible all they want and never understand what they read, I witness this fact everyday, not just among your church but every church. As I have stated already, God works in whom He choses and where He choses and when He choses and does not matter what one is doing right now or in the past; if you are called you will respond because when the veil is removed the beauty of the savior is revealed and is irresistible. Have you experienced any of this?

What makes my sister or you, or me, the final authority when it comes to the teachings of Christ?

It is not us, we have no authority except we can give the gospel and only because of the HS and those who say no it is not true will and do remain in their sin and vice versa; it is the work of the Holy Spirit, His job is to convict the world of sin and reveal the beauty of Christ to whom the Father choses to reveal. He will not reject anyone who humbles himself and cries out for mercy. This will never happen in a confessional, a baptism or any other sacrament.

Is the bible via individual interpretation the final authority? If that is the case, how can I be certain that your interpretation or my sisters interpretation or my interpretation, of the bible, is correct? After all, I have just as much right to interpret the bible as you do, based on this doctrine, passed on to all by Martin Luther.

Look if you have no individual ability to interpret the Scripture you give evidence of not having the HS; most people (protestants) who name the Name of Christ; have never dealt with their sin and came to God in humility and genuine heart and cried out for mercy; they are paying lip-service and playing church or religion. Remember the parable of the wheat and the tares, the field is the world and the wheat are the believers and the tares or those in the world playing church and giving false professions. Parable of the ten virgins are the ones without the HS; yet they too played and gave lip-service.

In this world it gets easier and easier to tell who is a Christian and even easier to tell who is not because as one grows in Christ, which is to grow in understanding one realizes that everything begins with ones view of Scripture, Jesus and the gospel. Since the way is so narrow and only a few find it, the ones that are saved and walking in obedience can spot those that are giving lip service and false profession; however this does not mean that the HS will not be making a visit to the person; for He moves as the wind as Jesus stated with His conversation w/Nicodemus.

The bible, codified by the RCC in the 4th century, doesn’t…any protestant…either… which church…belong?

There you go again; 2/3 of the Bible was written before there was a church of God; the other was written with/in the first 60 years after the resurrection, but not canonized until a few centuries later. Was this the CC? Don’t think so, but doesn’t matter; it is all the work of God and He can chose whatever method He wants; He can work through the godly as well as the ungodly. I belong to the church of Jesus Christ, latter day saints, the royal priesthood of believers as the Bible puts it.

Derek,are you saying that Constantine built the R.C.C. and the true C.C. built by Jesus, spanned the first 4 centuries, at which point the RCC surfaced, and these 2 churches co-existed until the protestant reformation???

I said it seems that the Roman Catholic Church emerged from around that time when paganism and Christianity were forced or merged together as the official state religion. I cannot be dogmatic about that and is also irrelevant in much respect because no matter the religion; god works and saves people as individuals, not by religious association. If that were the case then you better hope you are a Jew…CONTINUED

 

[DerekD]

.

Derek, if I accept your interpretation of scripture, why shouldn’t I accept ALL the other Protestant interpretations of scripture - each one as committed and fanatical about the validity of their interpretation as you. There is ONE bible. If the Protestant interpretation of said bible is true, then they all should be able to speak with ONE voice. I have experienced a room full of people who call themselves Christians but belong to different denominations. They differ on pretty much EVERY point of doctrine. Because there is NO unity of Protestant doctrine, I cannot accept one individual interpretation of scripture. The reason why there are so many different Protestant churches is quite easy to answer: arguments over doctrine. Protestant churches split because of bitter disputes about doctrine - not love. If faith alone is all that is necessary, why all this division in the protestant world?

It is not my or your sisters interpretation; ask her who interprets Scripture according to God and see what she says. She should say something to the same effect that it is the work of God or the Holy Spirit; that is what the Bibles says.

There is one true Bible; some translations pervert the gospel, some add to the Bible; so this can be a slippery slope.

Looking forward to your answer to each respective question. For over 400 years now we can see the fruit of the Protestant Reformation. If the seeds planted were good seed, we would see good trees, and vice-a-versa. The plants that grew are fragmented, bitter/intolerant to other plants that grew from the same seed.

You have a very different view of the church than what is presented in Scripture; you cannot overlook that God works on and with indiviuals, not groups. There are many divisions within your own church among groups and individuals; I believe you would call the individuals “cafeteria-style” Catholics; so don’t get proud into thinking you belong to some form of stability; the only stability anyone will have is the relationship with Jesus.
I hope I answered everything; tell me if I overlooked, there was a lot there.

 

[DerekD]

That’s what the Sacrament of Reconciliation is for (also referred to as the Sacrament of Penance or the Sacrament of Confession). Through this sacrament our sins are forgiven and grace comes into our soul again.

I would turn your questions right back around to you, because the Protestant way makes no sense. How do you as a Protestant stay righteous when you sin? And if you don’t stay righteous, doesn’t that conflict with OSAS? And if you do stay righteous, how can the Holy Spirit be in the presence of sin?

Romans 7 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I {would} like to {do,} but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want {to do,} I agree with the Law, {confessing} that the Law is good. ***So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. ***For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good {is} not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. ***But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. ***

The Bible makes no sense to you? What did Paul teach on this?

This is somewhat difficult to comprehend and takes a great deal of time and devotion to the word to really get a grasp.

Are you not part of the “apostolic church”? I don’t know about a Protestant, but a child of God is “declared” righteous by God and it has a long lasting effect; like eternity. When one sins, one relaizes it by the conviction of the HS and one apologizes to God for the offense. If one continues in sin as a believer, then the chastening hand of God may be used if He choses to or in the worst scenerio He will remove you from the earth and you would proably forfeit all of the rewards or prize as Paul aptly put it. Paul gave an example of this severe chastening in I believe 2 Corinthians; can’t recall at the moment.

No one can “stay righteous” on their own; it is the gift of God.

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 1Cor. 6

Do you not know that you are a temple of God and {that} the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are. 1Cor. 3

 

[DerekD]

Could you explain to us, oh holy one, what it means to be holy-what it feels like to be as holy as God even while not really being holy, but, oh yeah, reputedly imputedly, kinda, sorta, maybe holy-not even sinlessly holy?

You believe you are mocking me, but you are not, I am only telling you what God has said.

If the first piece {of dough} is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

Holy; set aside for God’s purpose to be righteous & pure in heart.
Without an influence from God, we are children of wrath, ignorant, desirous of evil (Eph. 4:18-19).

1 Peter 1:16
“YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.”

It is possible for man to be holy, it is commanded!

“Holy” is from the Greek word that means “separated,” and in this case it means separated from sin and therefore consecrated to God, or set apart for a sacred purpose.

What does it feel like? It feels great and yet undeserved, therefore I feel very thankful to my Lord.

 

[DerekD]

For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” ***The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, ***

How do I know for sure? See Romans 8 above and 1 John below

And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

This Is Written That You May Know

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that ***you may know that you have eternal life. ***

Eternal life is no guess work unless you are not a believer, one who rejects the gospel, such as you have already stated, or you are new to the faith and God has yet to grant that assurance, which is a blessing to those who walk by faith and obedience to King Jesus.

You read these Epistles very selectively, noting only those passages that seem to support your personal interpretation. This is the danger of personal interpretation - selective reading. You speak with contempt about the Church interpreting scripture for Catholics, but the church wrote the scripture and knows what it means and understands the context behind the writings. Why do you think its superior to try to understand it on your own. Do you really believe that you personally have more insight on the Bible than the Catholic Church?

I definitely do without hesitation; my guide is the very Person whom wrote the Bible; who is your guide? Is your guide remotely superior to mine? I think not.

As for Romans, have you ever read it in its entirety or do you just use bible tracts, which selectively pull out readings out of context which then miss the truth.
Have you seen how Roman’s starts: Here is the beginning of Chapter 2:
1 Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things.
2 We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true.
3 Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance?
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.

Does this sound like he’s saying that you can be saved once and for all by just believing in Christ? No. you must persevere in good works. What he is describing in Chapter 8 is part of a long several chapter discussion on why simply following the Jewish laws without Faith in Jesus is insufficient.

In Romans 2, Paul is speaking of an obedience issue, not a justification issue but more of a conversation with Paul to Jewish legalist. This is a contrast to those trying to eran salvation verses those that are being sanctified though the Spirit. If you continue to flow into chapter 3 and beginning in verse 21; will give prove of justification by faith alone.

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You know very little about what the Catholic church teaches, so perhaps it would be better for you to ask what the church teaches rather than to tell us what it teaches. We read the Scripture probably as much as you do. I personally read 5 chapters per day plus I hear 2-3 additional readings at daily mass and then whatever additional reading I do for apologetics. I’ve been reading the Bible daily since the gave me my first copy in 6th grade ccd class. Most Catholic apologists will use exclusively scripture in discussing theology and salvation with Protestants because it is accepted as a common denominator. As for the Catholic Church’s interpretation of scripture. At one point, I thought I could interpret scripture for myself and occasionally found myself in conflict with church teachings. I then took the time to understand why, and I found that in every case, the church had considered things that I had not. I learned to trust the church. After many years of this, I find that I am never in conflict now.

You can read Scripture as much as you want, but does not change the ability to understand it; that is the gift of God working through the HS in the believer, what you are telling me in your last statement is that God does not know you; you have not dealt in humility before God with a true heart of repentance; therefore you have not received the Spirit of Truth and until you do, then you will continue ins a totla state of confusion cncerning the Word.

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You can look no futher than the Roman’s 2 quote above. Clearly, you must persevere in doing good works. And what is the reason to distinguish between sanctification and justification? In the end you will either have eternal life or you won’t and this will require you to be holy.

Not a problem for the Christian, for God planned for each person the works in which we would walk to testify of Christ through tthe lfves of believers

 

[DerekD]

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God works through men when appointing within the Church. In Acts, it is the apostles that baptize and lay on hands in healing and ordaining. There is no gospel or Grace or a Gospel of works. There is one gospel that was given to the Apostles to pass down through the ages. It is based on God’s grace, but requires men to do the works that those graces allow.

"But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, ***to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God. ***

I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

Yeah, it is the gospel of God’s grace.

 

[joe370]

Hey Derek, you said:

Reading the bible won’t save you either. Although it is the very voice of God and the Holy spirit can remove the veil of blindness to the gospel…

Thanks for answering my questions; I’ll just touch on each one, a little at a time. If I choose never to go to church, or read my bible (the very voice of God) - and simply accept the fact that believing that Jesus is my Savior through His work on the cross then that is all I need to do? No church or bible, If I choose to opt out, just Christ? Do you attend the church of Jesus Christ, latter day saints simply to worship Jesus Christ with other Christians, or is there some edification that takes place from pastors or minister? If not, then, does everyone simply bring their spiritually inspired beliefs of what the bible teaches to the assembly? In other words, could I attend your church and bring my spiritually inspired beliefs of what the bible teaches to the assembly to which you belong, without any resistance?

Is the link below the church to which you belong?

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e419fb40e21cef00VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD

 

[paul_c]

Quote: Paul C
You read these Epistles very selectively, noting only those passages that seem to support your personal interpretation. This is the danger of personal interpretation - selective reading. You speak with contempt about the Church interpreting scripture for Catholics, but the church wrote the scripture and knows what it means and understands the context behind the writings. Why do you think its superior to try to understand it on your own. Do you really believe that you personally have more insight on the Bible than the Catholic Church?

Derek,
what do you really expect to get from posting on this website? You make bold, but completely unsubstantiated proclamations of your faith, while at the same time declaring that you alone know more about scriptural interpretation than the accumulated wisdom of the Catholic Church. Frankly, you have so much to learn. You will never convince anyone of your point of view if you simply claim that your interpretation comes from God, without anything to substantiate your statement.

Do you not see the irony in your discussion above on obedience and humility? Where have you demonstrated any obedience, like Catholics show to their leaders, or humility. After all, you are on record saying that you know more about God than the Catholic church and have been awarded heaven… Give that some consideration.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Soc, if things that have been revealed were completely open to our understanding, Paul would not have said this when talking about the spirit of deceit in 2nd Thessalonians

So it is the spirit of wickedness that leads us to believe lies.

Notice this last sentence and the word “Therefore” and ask yourself, what is it there for? We are to obey the traditions passed on through the apostles because…

Again and again it is obedience that is called for, not huge socratic discourses:

The teacher of this truth is God through means of the apostles and their successors.

Now, I am not accusing you of not desiring the truth, but consider this: Are we meant to be constantly debating the nature of the truth God has revealed to us? Or are we meant to obey the truth once given? Then after that obedience is rendered, it becomes a matter of Faith seeking understanding? Otherwise, aren’t we at risk of becoming like this:

Again, ask yourself who is the custodian of truth? Is it you? Or was it the apostles only? They certainly taught doctrine.

Notice in 2nd Thessalonians, Paul to not ask us to understand all that is given for us to believe. But simply to believe what is given through the apostles.

Continued

Perhaps you are correct, Ut. Perhaps i was deceived.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yes, we must study:

But we should also avoid this:

Notice also this from 2nd Timothy

These men refused to obey Moses and so were resisting the truth. Do not be like them.

The reason we must submit is that within revelation, there are mysteries, that defy our ability to understand. Now if a mystery is beyond our understanding, it can be easily distorted.One such mystery is the Eucharist.

We are called to obey, in such cases.

God bless,
Ut

Yes, perhaps i should just accept the mystery without questioning it.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

There is still no better answer than this. It sums it up in the nutshell:thumbsup:

The Apostles all agreed on the word of God because the had the power of the HS. Thats why the CC all agrees on the word of God. Same Power Same HS.

Same Holy Spirit; same Church; same truth. You might be right, Rinnie.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Phil 3:7-11

Is this “righteousness that comes from God” merely an imputed righteousness? No, it’s a genuine one, but one that comes from God rather than from mere observance of the laws-which could only be a righteousness of my own.

Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:12-14

The man-Paul-who wrote this also wrote Galatians 3:19-26. Is he saying here that he lacks faith?

It’s funny- I was dialoging recently with a fellow who was quite anti-Christian and who maintained, going by Jesus’ words in the NT, that He never meant to start a new religion or new covenant and was simply a solid Jew who knew His faith well in the Pharisaical tradition and so fully supported the old covenant. And that a man named Paul (really a Jew-hating Gentile) came along 30 years later and twisted the whole thing into a new religion called Christianity, based on Hellenistic thought and mythology-so different were the concepts purportedly expressed by the two men. Now while it’s a huge stretch to say that Jesus and Paul were saying almost opposite things, the fact that Paul, in some of his letters, emphasized the role of faith over against the Law so strongly in order to combat the legalism that humans fall prey to so readily, while Jesus said much to cause one to think He still demanded obedience to the Law, can make agreement between them appear to be, well, perhaps somewhat ambiguous at times. But faith in any case is extremely important-it’s the beginning of mans restored relationship with God.

Maybe this should be obvious but there’s a reason why mans’ believing in God is held to be so imperative. When Adam & Eve sinned, they lost faith in God-and with them mankind lost faith in God- because when one no longer trusts in the authority of another, rightly or wrongly, then the other is no longer authoritative in their life- i.e. God was no longer the god of them. And He allowed them this freedom, the freedom to make this unwise choice. So man finds himself in a world effectively without God, where his own will, along with that of others, reigns, and the disorder we observe is the result.

(cont)

You might be right, FH.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

(cont)

But is faith, by itself, really enough? Or if God desires to save us with no role for us to play, why is even our faith required? No one believes we’re saved by faith because they know we’re saved by God, faith being an instrument He uses because it’s the most basic right disposition of God’s creation towards Him. But faith, as James points out, is dead without works. So then we must come up with a way to distinguish between dead faith and saving faith. But “saving faith” then is forced to take on a broader range of meaning- becoming a faith that necessarily produces fruit. The CC recognized long ago that faith alone does not save and that God is after something deeper in us than that. The law doesn’t save either because “the law made nothing perfect” Heb 7:19. But even this still implies that perfection is the goal.

Adam & Eve lacked something else, originally, than just faith because they certainly believed in God before they sinned. They determined that there was hope for greater happiness to be found outside of following God’s will and they did not yet know the value of love-the value of Him and the need *for *Him in order for goodness, harmony, and happiness to be attainable. Laws prescribed the way man “should be”-or at least should look, if he were to be holy, IOW to be who God created him to be, but they were only laws, which would be unnecessary to begin with if man were not already out-of-sync in some capacity. They were commandments of God rather than God, Himself, which is what man needed. This is why the prophet Jeremiah says,

**10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me, **
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. John 17:3

The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 1John 4

The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Gal 5:6

It was the rejection of God, not just by not believing in Him but by not loving Him-that caused man to break the laws to begin with. Because love *always *implies faith while faith can exist without love. And loves fulfills the law, not faith. For man to love God is justice itself, and He can be satisfied with nothing less. Why should we be either? Growing in justice by being perfected in love and living our lives accordingly is Gods way, so St John of the Cross says:

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love

Not judged on an imputed righteousness, attained by faith, but on our love, and all that implies.

Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Does this even make sense to anyone? Did Jesus not said I am the Church.

n eph 5:25 Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present to himself the church in splendor without spot or wrinkle or any such thing that she might be holy without blemish.

Now here is what I am hearing. Jesus died for the Church, became the Church and then left the Church? Is that what they are trying to say. IF so not only do I disagree, scripture sure does too.

Please explain, Rinnie. Are you saying Jesus is the Church?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Also I am sorry I didn’t read all of this thread. But the gates of hades is indeed death. BUt that is what God said the death of an Apostles will never end the Church. The Apostolic succession will live on through what we call Holy Orders. It will succeed until Jesus comes again in glory. The RCC will alway be led by the HS through the Apostles in succession which is the Pope and Bishops and can be traced and proved in history.

You might be right again, Rinnie.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Derek,
While I agree that Salvation is a gift from God, we must cooperate with it to be saved. We are called to be holy as the Lord is holy. Do you recognize that?

Sounds reasonable, PC.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Originally Posted by joe370 View Post
Soc, you said:

That does not answer the objection of Protestants that the Catholic religion has become a man-made one and the real God-made religion is Protestantism.

Proof is in the pudding. Another claim I often made as a former Lutheran, but with very little follow up, for I could not back it up. Every non-Catholic church was built on the foundation of the reformers, as opposed to the Apostles. This is a historical fact. If the real God-man church is one of the protestant churches, then show me historically, where one of these churches can be found, prior to the protestant reformation? As I said before: give me the name of any protestant church and I can give you the name of the man who established it, and when, and the date will not precede the 16th century.

I’ve heard claims such as: the Arian movement (denied the trinity) - or the Nestorian movement (believed that God was not man) - and many other groups were the true churches built by God, and that the apostolic Church was Protestant, but zero proof for such outlandish claims. Clearly heretical movements such as these do not count; the C.C. still pre-dates these movements:

Montanists, Donatusists, Paulicans, Catharists, Waldenese, Nestorian, Bogomil, Bohemian Brethren, West Deutsche Brethren, Anabaptists, Heuguenots, Moravian Brethren, Arianism, Donatists, Manichaeism, Marcion, Nestorianism, Pelagianism.

Furthermore, if the C.C. is a man-made church, as so many protestant churches suggest, could you please give me the name of the man who established it, and when? This was crucial to me becoming a catholic.

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Soc, you said:

Yes, i see what you mean. So, will you give me the name of the man that built the C.C.? This was my starting point.

I suppose that would be Jesus.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Joe! This is priceless! I hope you don’t mind if I steal it from time to time. I can’t wait to hear what responses you get to this one.

Rinnie: The answer: “Jesus, Joe!”