# Was Jesus deliberately ambiguous? #

[Socrates4Jesus]

What are you talking about. I am a gentile I am not held responsible for the Old law. The New Covenant made us free from
the Law of Moses.

Now I am only subject to God directly. Rom 3:20 The New Law

We are still subject to Gods law. Read rom. 3:20 Justified means made right with God. Clean from sin and to be made worthy of Gods promises.

We can never earn Justification through the law because the law is what tells us we are sinners.

Justification has been merited by the Passion of Christ. Its through Gods grace that we never deserved we were given righteousness we never could earn through the Law. Adam lost our grace for us. Jesus gave us our grace back.

Paul tells us we are Justified by faith apart from the works of law.

BUt I could be wrong but I think you are getting the works of the law of Moses and the Law of God confused real bad.

CCC 1963 (this us a shot version) The Law is holy spiritual and good yet still (name removed by moderator)erfect. Its like a teacher to show us what needs to be done. but does not have the grace of the HS to fulfill it.
According to St Paul it can disclose sin which constitutes a law of concupiscence in the human heart. But its only the first stage of the way to the kingdom.

The old law was the preparation for the Gospel.
The new Law is the Grace of the Holy Spirit.

But if you think that just because Jesus gave us help with Grace from the Holy Spirit we do not have to follow the ten commmandments you are sadly misled. Its Because of that grace we Can follow the ten commmandments.

Why do you think Jesus said I did not come to change it I came to fulfill it?

God Bless you brother, but you need to study the diffference between the Old law and the New Law. I think that would help you alot.

Also not that is anyones business but apart from being really sick with the flu. I have missed Church maybe 4 times in my life with no good excuse. Do I think that can help get me into heaven Heck yes!

Why? Simple. I am receiving the Eucharist. Everytime I receive the Body of Christ I receive Grace, and everytime I receive Grace it gives me more power to become a better person. The more Grace I receive and ask for. the less sin I commit. So does going to Church help me to enter heaven by special Graces from God. Oh Yes! Will it get me into heaven? Only God can answer that. But I will obey his commandments and accept the Free Grace his has to offer me in the Sacraments. That can only be found in the CC.

And nodding.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Derek, why do you judge me as a legalist? I fact, why do you call Catholics legalists? You make the claim, but you give no examples of why you make the statement.
I think you have a false impression about what Catholicism is all about. It is good that you are on these pages now, because you will learn the truth about Catholicism and about salvation if you approach it with an open mind.

You also ignored the point I made to you. I gave you four scriptural verses demonstrating that works were also required for salvation, in opposition to your Salvation by Faith alone theology, yet you totally ignored them. If you want the truth, you can’t ignore scripture that contradicts your theology. And by the way, there is no question that Faith is the a requirement for salvation. But it is not the only one, nor is it even the first. The first is the Grace of God that allows you to have faith, the second is faith itself. The third is to Act out that faith by doing the will of God (summarized as loving God and Neighbor. ) If you truly do a comprehensive, study of the Bible, you will find that there is tremendous scriputural support for all three leading to salvation. You have chosen just to focus on the support of Faith, but you will see that there is equal support of the requirements for Grace and Good works as well.

By the way, the Holy Spirit, the lord, the Giver of Live, is within each of us from the moment of Conception. We gain its gifts through Grace and we gain grace through the Sacraments.

And nodding.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Derek,
I want to add a little to this.

First of all, you are being a bit judgemental, here. You really shouldn’t accuse people you don’t know of sinning.

As for the ten commandments. We are all still held to them if we want to enter eternal life. Have you never read Matthew 19:
16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"

I know that this doesn’t fit your Sola Fide theology, but the Truth is still the truth, whether we wish to ignore it or not…

And nodding.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yes, Catholic teachings are based on a law, the law of love. And you’d know it if you’ve experienced it. For example, the sacrament of Reconciliation-or penance- is filled with grace for one who’s recognized they’ve failed at living up to this law, and like Paul, know they need to continue to strive towards perfection to win the prize. Here they can realize forgiveness again- and again, and again, if need be -rising and falling, working out their salvation through this sacrament along with other graces received, however God chooses to grant them. The imputed righteousness doctrine is actually legalistic to the core-a sterile forensic declaration of ones righteousness with no real change-no molding of a new heart required, with mans’ cooperating in humility, as a part of becoming beings fit for-of being capable of seeing-God.

And nodding.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Joe already answered this for you. Faith alone is obvious to those that have been decieved. James specifically answered this heresy in the second chapter of his letter:

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Luther recognized that James effectively discredited his Sola Fide Theology 1500 years before Luther even created it. Luther’s response was to discredit it as an Epistle of Straw and try to eliminate it from the Canon.

yes, only the saved observe the teachings of the Church I will readily agree to that. But my point was that what the church does in not legalism. the Church is simply doing what it was told to do. You do not refute this in this note.

First of all, we belong to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. It was founded by Christ on all the apostles, with Peter as its head. This is clearly spelled out in Matthew 16, In Luke 20, and in John 21. Peter’s leadership is clear through the first half of the ACTS of the Apostles, as well as in his epistles. You make statements that this isn’t true but you don’t back your statements up with any facts. This is because there are no facts to sustain you. It is clear that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ through the Apostles. Your church, if you even have one, has a founder as well, but it is not Christ but some man interpreting what he thinks Christ said in the Bible.

And nodding.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

You are being very judgemental. How do you know I have never come to true repentence before God? And how do you know that I don’t understand the church and God? Is it because I don’t agree with your theology? You will notice that all the Catholics who answer you here will be in excellent theological alignment. this is because we are giving you Catholic Answers to your question and we understand what the Catholic church teaches. (and by the way, what the church teaches is very well documented and very easy to access for those with a true interest). The Catholic Church has been teaching the same truths for 2000 years - the same truths handed down by the Apostles. You can track the continuity of those truths all the way back to them through the writings of the church fathers. What is the source of your theology?

And nodding.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Hey Rinnie… Sadly, no one has ever answered this question; not as a former Lutheran or as a Catholic convert. If you get an answer from someone, please let me know! I’d be very curious…

And nodding.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Does this even make sense to anyone? Did Jesus not said I am the Church.

n eph 5:25 Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present to himself the church in splendor without spot or wrinkle or any such thing that she might be holy without blemish.

Now here is what I am hearing. Jesus died for the Church, became the Church and then left the Church? Is that what they are trying to say. IF so not only do I disagree, scripture sure does too.

It makes perfect sense. Yes, Jesus is the church to which he is the head and savior, and he is the builder:

“I will build my church.”

I’m not letting you off the hook that easy. LOL…Perhaps you can ask Ed and let me know. In the mean time, [sign]could you please give me the name of the man that built the C.C. [/sign]

I just could not let this go. ITs too good. I know the answer was given plenty of times. But may I pleeeeeeease Pretty Please! Thanks.

Okay the CC was build by Jesus Christ, he built his Church on Peter. Now you can take that both ways too! If you don’t believe me, Go to rome. Under the Church guess who you will find? Yep Peter

And nodding.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

**Hey Rinnie, you said:
**

I just could not let this go. ITs too good. I know the answer was given plenty of times. But may I pleeeeeeease Pretty Please! Thanks.

**I have asked this question so many times, to no avail. There is a reason for this of course. If the answer is Jesus Christ, then they would have to ask themselves: why don’t I belong to Jesus’ established church, just as I did as a former Christian belonging to one of the Lutheran churches.
**

Okay the CC was build by Jesus Christ, he built his Church on Peter…

**…And the rest of the Apostles and prophets, to which non-Catholics, e.g., many of my own family members, ignore, and simply utter the mantra: Jesus is the only foundation. I never understood even as a former Lutheran, why that was when it’s stated in the bible. I was always told that Catholics were never bible oriented. What I discovered was the exact opposite. Most non-Catholics ignore large chunks of the holy bible, just as Martin Luther did.

**
Now you can take that both ways too! If you don’t believe me, Go to rome. Under the Church guess who you will find? Yep Peter.

**To this they will simply say: another catholic lie. **

**As a former protestant I was really saddened by the disdain many non-Catholics had/have for Jesus’ established church, and it was/is always based on some disinformation or outright lie, e.g. Catholics worship the blessed Mother Mary. Jesus said: "If the world hates you, (the C.C. built by Jesus) - ye know that it hated me before it hated you. But He also said: “…when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.”

And: “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever**.”

The holy spirit was there in the beginning, on Pentecost, was there in the middle, guiding Jesus church into all truth, regardless of the chaff mixed in with the wheat, and will be there to the end, and that is why I love the C.C.To believe the bible is to believe the fact that Jesus is the guider, sustainer and protector of the C.C. As long as the holy spirit is guiding Jesus’ church, she, as the bride of Christ, simply cannot fail to teach all that Jesus taught, almost 2000 years ago, even though the devil is relentless in his efforts from within and out.

And nodding.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Wonderful Post Joe.

If I was given a chance to say one thing to other Faiths. Just one thing, It would be this.

Jesus said I am sending the advocate the HS. He will lead the Church. The HS is GOD FOLKS AND HE IS STILL THERE ALIVE AND WELL IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH JUST LIKE JESUS WHEN HE WALKED THIS EARTH. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JESUS SITTING WITH PETER AND US GOING UP TO COMMUNION ON SUNDAY AND SPENDING OUR ONE AND ONE TIME WITH HIM. GOD IS GOD. GOD FROM GOD, LIGHT FROM LIGHT TRUE GOD FROM TRUE GOD.

HE STILL EXISTS. WE DON’T HAVE TO WAIT FOR HIM TO COME IN GLORY, HE’S HERE. IN THE EUCHARIST!

p.s. Guys thats shouting ( I just learned caps is shouting) But its in a good way.

Just like Love you can’t see it, you can’t reveal it! Its just there in your heart!

Anyone you walk into a RCC especially alone and sit in that pew. or kneel in front of that altar, and you don’t feel the Jesus you never will. And then when you learn what Communion really is, you would just…sing, dance whatever you do when you are so full of grace and joy!

And nodding.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

So I guess the key to salvation is doing absolutely nothing.

Somehow that sounds harder to achieve than one might first think.

Chuck

And nodding.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Soc, as I promised, here are the names of the men that built each respective non-Catholic church up until the 1900’s, at which point you can give me the name and I will give you the founder; there are just too many of them for this post. Still waiting on Eds reply as well as yours regarding the architect of the C.C., whenever you get the chance, of course. Hopefully I’ll get your answer before the thread ends.

33 A.D.

The Catholic Church, (which eventually moved to Rome, headed by Peter after he fled Jerusalem) - was founded by the God-man, Jesus Christ. He said to just one man: "Thou art Cephas, and upon this Cephas I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Clearly the the second rock refers DIRECTLY back to the first rock, just as would be the case if Jesus said this instead:

Martin Luther, But what about you?" he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Martin Luther answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Martin Luther, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Cephas and on this Cephas, I will build my church. If this were in the bible, Lutherans would have no problem believing as do Catholics; rest assured, and I too would belong to the one Lutheran church; but first we would have to decide which one to follow: the one that believes as does the C.C. and Martin Luther, or the one who does not believe in the true presence.

In the following passages, Cephas is given as the nickname of the apostle better known as Simon Peter. The Greek word is transliterated Kephas. This eliminates the silly petra/petros argument, abandoned by almost all protestant scholars.

John 1:42

He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon son of John, you shall be called Cephas", which is translated 'Peter'.

1 Corinthians 1:12

"But I say that each of you says "I am of Paul", or "I am of Apollos", or "I am of Cephas", or "I am of Christ".

Galatians 1:18

Then after three years I did go up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and stayed with him for fifteen days...

Jesus’ church is built on the foundation of the Apostles and prophets. However, Jesus never said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the foundation of the apostles and prophets, and that is why I belong to the C.C. as opposed to the E.O.C., which also can trace their lineage all the way back to the apostles and prophets; not that that has happened with the EOC. Jesus said to Simon Peter and Simon Peter alone that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church built on Simon’s new nickname Kephas, which means: immovable Rock. And of course Jesus is the Godly (I Am) - Rock, guiding His earthly church until the end of time.

Peter knew that he would one day die, and in what way, so he passed the baton to a successor, to do as he did, knowing that the gates would never prevail against Jesus’ established church built on “this” immovable rock, (regardless of the weeds growing within the wheat) - until the end of time. That is why succession from this first century immovable rock to the present day immovable rock, is so important, regardless of the few bad rocks in this successive lineage. It seems like everyone would want to belong to the church built by Jesus on this immovable Rock to which the gates of hell could not prevail, thanks to Jesus’ protection/guardianship.

Every Church suffers occasionally because of the weaknesses of human nature. But I believe that regardless of these temporary weaknesses of human nature that take place in Jesus’ Church, abandoning His Church is not an option. Jesus was more forgiving and understanding of human nature. When Jesus was arrested, His chosen Apostles were guilty of such weaknesses. Judas had betrayed Him, Peter denied him three times, and the remaining apostles ran away, even after all the miracles they witnessed. If Jesus supported and anointed their apostolic role even after some of their human failings/shortcomings, shouldn’t we all, regardless of the century that this human weakness/shortcoming takes place, as long as the deposit of faith stays unchanged! After all, our faith is in the Church established by Jesus, not in any one person involved in the Church. Of course problems in the Church must be addressed and corrected, but the faith and Church established by Jesus should never be denied or abandoned.

And nodding.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Man-made churches continued…

100 AD

200 AD

300 AD

400 AD

500 AD

600 AD

700 AD

800 AD

9th Century marked the first official schisms within Jesus’ one church.

827 AD: Eastern Schism began by Photius of Constantinople. The primary difference in Faith at the heart of the schism was the argument over the addition of the filioque statement (Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, not just the Father) to the creed. This schism eventually healed.

900 AD

1000 AD

1053 AD: Eastern Schism began by Michael Caerularius of Constantinople. The primary argument was the Latin practice of fasting on Saturday and the use of unleavened bread for the Holy Eucharist. Theses two points were more for challenging the authority of the Roman Pontif. This schism eventually healed.

1100 AD

1200 AD

1300 AD

1378 AD: Death of Pope Gregory XI on 27 March, 1378 began the Western Schism. The schism came to an end in 1417.

1400

1472: Present Schism of the Eastern Church begins with the repudiation of the Council of Florence.

1500

1517: Lutheran Church was founded by Martin Luther, a former priest of the Roman Catholic Church. This marked the beginning of the Protestant Reformation

1521: Anabaptist first appeared in Zwickau, in the present kingdom of Saxony. Initially, they were primarily against infant baptism.

1525: Schwenkfeldians were founded by Kaspar of Schwenkfeld, aulic councillor of Duke Frederick of Liegnitz and canon. At first he associated himself with Luther, but later opposed the latter in his Christology, as well as in his conception of the Eucharist, and his doctrine of justification.

1531: The Socinians and other Anti-Trinitarians attacked the fundamental doctrine of the Blessed Trinity. Chief founder of Anti-Trinitarians was Laelius Socinus, teacher of jurisprudence at Siena, and his nephew, Faustus Socinus.

1536: Mennonites founded by Menno Simons, a former Catholic priest and later an Anabaptist elder. They deny infant baptism and the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.

1534: Church of England (Anglicanism) was founded by King Henry VIII when he threw off the authority of the Pope and proclaimed himself the head of the Church in England, because the Pope refused to declare invalid his marriage with Queen Catherine.

1560: The Presbyterian denomination was begun by John Knox who was dissatisfied with Anglicanism.

1600

1608: The Baptist church was launched by John Smyth in Amsterdam, Holland.

1620: The Swiss Mennonites split into Amish or Upland Mennonites and Lowland Mennonites.

1671: Quakers were founded by John George Fox of Drayton in Leicestershire. He favored a visionary spiritualism, and found in the soul of each man a portion of the Divine intelligence. All are allowed to preach, according as the spirit incites them.

1700

1744: The Methodist church was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England.

1774: The Unitarians were founded by Theophilus Lindley in London.

1784: Episcopalian denomination was begun by Samuel Seabury who was dissatisfied with Presbyterianism.

1787: The founder of The Salvation Army is William Booth, who quit the Anglicans, and then the Methodists, and set up his own version of Christianity.

1800

1822: Mormons founded by Joseph Smith, who made his appearance with supposed revelations in 1822.

1872: The Jehovah’s Witness Church was developed by Charles Russell.

1879: Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy began the Christian Scientist religion basing it upon an outright denial of Original Sin and its effects.

1896: Ballinger Booth, the son of William Booth, quit The Salvation Army and started his own church.

The Seventh-Day Adventists, the Church of Christ, The Church of the Nazarene, or any of the various Pentecostal Churches, etc. are also among the hundreds of new churches founded by men within the past 150 years or so.

2000 AD…

Thousands of churches and non-denominational churches scattered outside the One Church founded by Christ, and many more to be built in the future.

And nodding.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

We’d agree with that last statement except you said in post # 947 that people of faith “had so much love and obedience they were serving others from the heart and thus serving the Lord and didn’t even realize it…amen.” So is obedience easy for people of faith or difficult?

We take sanctification very seriously since we know it’s tied up with justification. Jesus not only forgives sin-He takes it away. Thus He told the adulteress, “Your sins are forgiven, go, and sin no more.” And with the help of His grace, we can accomplish even that.

I believe you’ve come to faith but I don’t believe in your theology and don’t believe you really do either. Why don’t you do the world a favor and admit-to yourself, at least- that there’s nothing really different about you and the one-time born again, “faith alone” salvation experience is bogus.

And nodding.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

---

The bible, codified by the RCC in the 4th century, doesn’t mention any protestant churches either my friend. To which church do you belong? Perhaps that is the church built by God.

So, you are saying that Constantine built the R.C.C. and the true C.C. built by Jesus, spanned the first 4 centuries, at which point the RCC surfaced, and these 2 churches co-existed until the protestant reformation???

Regarding the “praying to dead saints” God is the God of the living not the dead. Give your bible a once over. Regarding “Maryology” I suppose you have been taught to believe, and so believe, that Catholics worship Mary, just as I was taught to believe as a former Lutheran, and no longer believe?

And nodding.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

DerekD, you said to Rinnie, grace is no longer grace my legalist friend. You are well trained in your churches theology; you stated it is grace on one hand and works of sacraments and church attendence on the other hand and neither hand knows what the other is doing.

**You too my legalist friend are well trained in your churches theology. By the way, which church is that, or is church attendance unnecessary? Is your authority via your interpretation of your bible, codified by my church, for you, the final authority ?

**
I am blessed not to have such conflict.

**How do you know. Based on what? **

I am not confused between the old and new law, they are the same except for the sabbath. As Jesus aptly put it that if both of His commands are obeyed, then it fulfills all the law. However; no one has the ability to not sin; even the greatest saints. Sacraments will not save you; I hope you believe that because they cannot add an ounce of grace; saving grace is not made in measure.

**Give me a reason why I should defer to your interpretation of your bible, and I will join your one man church, unless of course you attend a church, to which I will do the same.
**

…when one is justified before God at the moment they truly belief according to Gods grace, then they are immediately “sealed” by the Holy Spirit. Anyone who thinks they are saved and can be unsaved does not understand God’s salvation by grace through faith in God (Jesus).

**Ahhh, you are a once saved always saved person, or am I wrong? You and my sister would get along so well.
**

And nodding.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Dear Soc,

you haven't been posting  for several pages now.

I wonder whether you’re just observing the debate ignited by Derek, or … you’re
already preparing the next thread.

No, i was actually sick in bed with N1H1.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

But i’m feeling better now.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

My son was ill.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I probably got it from him.