Was John Chrysostom Catholic?

[Richca]

Secondly, CCC#2008 speaks nothing about heaven being a reward. In fact heaven is not even in that paragraph. The confusion that people get into is thinking that Heaven is a place, a “thing”. Heaven is not a place, it is a PERSON, God himself.

see CCC#1023-1025

“Thus says the LORD: Cease your cries of weeping, hold back your tears!
There is compensation for your labor” (Jeremiah 31:16).

“The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it” ( CCC #2006).

“The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace” ( CCC #2008).

 

[Richca]

GRACE.

I never said that our merit is not due to God’s grace. We merit by cooperating with God’s grace.

 

[StLudmilla]

“Thus says the LORD: Cease your cries of weeping, hold back your tears!
There is compensation for your labor” (Jeremiah 31:16).

“The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it” ( CCC #2006).

“The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace” ( CCC #2008).

So?!? 2006 speaks of earthly merit. Just keep reading…to one paragraph after that.

CCC#2007With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received EVERYTHING from him, our Creator.

Keep reading just a little bit further on #2008… and where is the term heaven? Not there.
Because heaven IS God SEE #2007 above AND see CCC#1023-1025. again

 

[StLudmilla]

I never said that our merit is not due to God’s grace. We merit by cooperating with God’s grace.

Then you finally understand that salvation is by grace alone

 

[Richca]

Protestants have never said that we are justified by faith alone in the sense that repentance, cooperation of the will, a heart made clean and holy can be absent. Absolutely not, faith in God in the Pauline is accompanied even from the very inception of faith with repentance, conversion, cooperation of the will, a charitable heart. However even though these are always present, God has chosen among them faith to be what is reckoned for righteousness in order to justify us. Faith is the means alone, but faith is never alone

Though faith is the beginning, foundation and root of justification, charity is superior to faith. Faith without charity is lifeless ( 1 Corinthians 13). In catholic teaching, a person in the state of mortal sin, i.e., unjustified, can still have faith.

 

[Richca]

Then you finally understand that salvation is by grace alone

StLudmilla: as i said in a previous post quoting St Augustine “God created us without us, but he did not will to save us without us.” What I understand is that God through his grace is the principle cause of our salvation but we need to cooperate with that grace to attain salvation.

 

[Bookcat]

See the audiences of Pope Benedict XVI for a beautiful treatment of the subject.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (scroll down)

Plus earlier one:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

 

[Mystophilus]

What proof do you have that he believed this?

Read the quotations in that link which I just provided, and then read the rest of what he says in the texts from which those excerpts are taken: he talks about justification via faith, via works, via the long process of gradual conformation.

 

[StLudmilla]

StLudmilla: as i said in a previous post quoting St Augustine “God created us without us, but he did not will to save us without us.” What I understand is that God through his grace is the principle cause of our salvation** but **we need to cooperate with that grace to attain salvation.

There is no BUT. How the do you think you can “cooperate” with God except by his grace???

What part of “we receive** EVERYTHING** from God” CCC#2007 is not clear? You fall into the very trap that Protestants accuse us of, the very thing that we do not hold, works salvation.

THE First Cause of salvation IS the first cause of salvation. This may be scary for Catholics (and Protestants too, because in effect they believe in a works salvation, maybe only a one time prayer/work, but still works), but every every** EVERY **good thing you do is because of God’s grace alone, there is nothing good that God alone has not caused, that does not proceed from the works of Christ. To say anything else is a lie.

 

[StLudmilla]

CCC#2011
The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits** were pure grace**.

 

[Ion]

Hey folks,

I’ve been reading through the homilies on Romans in John Chrysostom, and I cannot help but notice the protestant interpretations that come line after line after line.

My first question, if someone had to prove that John Chrysosotom was Catholic, how would you go about it ? I am not aware if there is a book about this. And I am not speaking of the Eucharist. But more particularly, do we have evidence that he believed some of the other doctrines that evangelicals highly question such as infant baptism, the process of justification, the priesthood, etc,etc

In the phone books of those times they didn’t specify religion…

 

[steve_b]

I’m not saying that we are justified by a faith that is alone, but a faith that always has works with it. But the works do not justify us despite their presence with faith

This is what St. Paul teaches, for he excludes all works in the obtaining of justification but always knows that good works are the result of faith and are always with it, if someone is tone saved

If Paul excludes good works then he would be contradicting himself in [Eph 2:8-10 ] and he would be setting himself against Jesus who said

Matt 3:10
The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

Lk 13:6
“A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’ 8 “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down

If we don’t do what we are created to do [Eph 2:10] then we are useless, we’re just taking up space, and will be treated like that fig tree.

 

[steve_b]

Protestants have never said that we are justified by faith alone in the sense that repentance, cooperation of the will, a heart made clean and holy can be absent. Absolutely not, faith in God in the Pauline is accompanied even from the very inception of faith with repentance, conversion, cooperation of the will, a charitable heart. However even though these are always present, God has chosen among them faith to be what is reckoned for righteousness in order to justify us. Faith is the means alone, but faith is never alone

Then why was faith “alone” the rallying cry of the Protestant revolt if they know faith is not only not alone, but even scripture says NOT BY “faith alone”. [Jas 2:24]

Part of the answer is, Luther threw James out of his bible. Problem solved for him…except he ended up putting the book back into his bible.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Protestants, at least the one’s that I have been instructed by since 2005, have never danced around Jesus’ teaching. If Jesus said that “every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire”, then this means that any and all failure to produce good works is the road to damnation. It is very clear. Jesus also said that only those who build their lives on the foundation of obeying his teachings are those who will survive the coming judgement of God. Jesus also taught that wicked servants who did not work with the talents given to them are cast out into outer darkness to suffer eternal hell. Jesus taught that only the righteous will pass the final judgement of God, and those who practiced iniquity will perish into the hell prepared for the devil and his angels.

I am still shocked that people today are accusing protestant denominations, and I mean the original ones such as Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist, Anglican, etc,etc., of teaching that a man can be saved while living a life of ungodliness or in the practice of unrighteousness. None of the confessions teach this. In fact, they all teach what I just put in my first paragraph. Either you need to do more protestant research or simply share your ignorance on the subject.

Secondly, the fact that protestants teach that a man is justified by faith alone is simply a nice construction of the argument in Romans 3:21-5:21. Not one Catholic I’ve ever met has ever exegeted this section of Holy Scripture. I hope to find some literature on this or even if someone on the forums would go systematically through this, but all deny the need to pursue this because of the authority of the Church. Well I simply ask, where is there a documentation that goes through the book of Romans? ? Galatians??

Thirdly, the word “justified” or “Justification” never, absolutely never carries the meaning “to make righteous” in any of the documents of the NT or in the writings of that era. The hebrew and greek terms have a forenic meaning in the context of the law-court or a context of judgement. It is very clear to me that the greek fathers, if you actually read their works, such as John Chrysostom, they believe in forensic justification.

Fourthly, just because justification is forensic and is a free gift from God through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ does not mean that this cancels out the necessity for good works in this life. The free gift of righteousness does not apply itself to antinomianism. Protestants have rightly taught that salvation begins with faith in Jesus, which includes conversion of heart and repentance toward God, and that our lives are required to perservere in saving faith in order to obtain final salvation. The fact that we are justified is simply teaching that we have been freed from eternal condemnation, so long as we remain in the faith (which includes the life that corresponds with faith).

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Then why was faith “alone” the rallying cry of the Protestant revolt if they know faith is not only not alone, but even scripture says NOT BY “faith alone”. [Jas 2:24]

Part of the answer is, Luther threw James out of his bible. Problem solved for him…except he ended up putting the book back into his bible.

Because a man is not justified by faith alone!

A demon is one who has “faith” in God, yet right alongside his belief in the truth, has a life of hatred and rebellion against God. Therefore, a demon is not a recipient of eternal salvation. Simply stated in James.

A man is justified by faith alone, as Abraham was, in the sense that it is faith, and not works, that are reckoned for righteousness. However, since that faith which brings in the justification is always accompanied by works. So in a sense, justification is by faith and works.

BUT the merit of the justification is in the grace and mercy of God worked out through the atoning work of Jesus Christ.

The works which accompany faith have no meritorious cause for justification.

 

[steve_b]

Protestants, at least the one’s that I have been instructed by since 2005, have never danced around Jesus’ teaching. If Jesus said that “every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire”, then this means that any and all failure to produce good works is the road to damnation. It is very clear. Jesus also said that only those who build their lives on the foundation of obeying his teachings are those who will survive the coming judgement of God. Jesus also taught that wicked servants who did not work with the talents given to them are cast out into outer darkness to suffer eternal hell. Jesus taught that only the righteous will pass the final judgement of God, and those who practiced iniquity will perish into the hell prepared for the devil and his angels.

I am still shocked that people today are accusing protestant denominations, and I mean the original ones such as Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist, Anglican, etc,etc., of teaching that a man can be saved while living a life of ungodliness or in the practice of unrighteousness. None of the confessions teach this. In fact, they all teach what I just put in my first paragraph. Either you need to do more protestant research or simply share your ignorance on the subject.

Secondly, the fact that protestants teach that a man is justified by faith alone is simply a nice construction of the argument in Romans 3:21-5:21. Not one Catholic I’ve ever met has ever exegeted this section of Holy Scripture. I hope to find some literature on this or even if someone on the forums would go systematically through this, but all deny the need to pursue this because of the authority of the Church. Well I simply ask, where is there a documentation that goes through the book of Romans? ? Galatians??

Thirdly, the word “justified” or “Justification” never, absolutely never carries the meaning “to make righteous” in any of the documents of the NT or in the writings of that era. The hebrew and greek terms have a forenic meaning in the context of the law-court or a context of judgement. It is very clear to me that the greek fathers, if you actually read their works, such as John Chrysostom, they believe in forensic justification.

Fourthly, just because justification is forensic and is a free gift from God through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ does not mean that this cancels out the necessity for good works in this life. The free gift of righteousness does not apply itself to antinomianism. Protestants have rightly taught that salvation begins with faith in Jesus, which includes conversion of heart and repentance toward God, and that our lives are required to perservere in saving faith in order to obtain final salvation. The fact that we are justified is simply teaching that we have been freed from eternal condemnation, so long as we remain in the faith (which includes the life that corresponds with faith).

not justified by Faith alone is scripture. [Jas 2:24] Where’s the argument?

 

[steve_b]

Because a man is not justified by faith alone!

Protestants rally cry was a man is justified by faith alone. Don’t try and change the argument

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

This goes to show that both sides have understood what the other side is teaching.

I know what Catholics believe. They believe that justification is by faith initially, and then the good works that we do continue the process of justification, whereas if one fails to provide good works and commits moral sin, he/she loses that justification, and must dive into repentance and reconciliation to obtain again the grace of being right with God.

Most protestants misunderstand the catholic view that it simply teaches we merit justification by our own effort and good works.

 

[Richca]

CCC#2011

The charity of Christ is the source

StLudmilla: very nice post here and the one preceding. I agree with what you say here and in the previous post, for that is catholic teaching and as St Paul says: “For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work” (Phillipians 2:13). The only point I’m making is that grace does not force our free will, as many have thought, to the extent that we cannot resist it if we so choose. Thus the Council of Trent decreed:

Canon 4.
If anyone says that man’s free will moved and aroused by God, by assenting to God’s call and action, in no way cooperates toward disposing and preparing itself to obtain the grace of justification, that it cannot refuse its assent if it wishes, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive, let him be anathema.

And the Catechism says: “God’s free initiative demands man’s free response” (#2002).

And St Thomas Aquinas : “And since this ability to impede or not to impede the reception of divine grace is within the scope of free choice” ( Summa Contra Gentiles, Book 3, Chapter 159).

If we do not resist God’s grace, the power of grace moves us to assent, our will cooperating. So in this sense, I would agree with you that salvation is all grace.

 

[Bookcat]

I know what Catholics believe. They believe that justification is by faith initially, and then the good works that we do continue the process of justification, whereas if one fails to provide good works and commits moral sin, he/she loses that justification, and must dive into repentance and reconciliation to obtain again the grace of being right with God.
.

Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers fame --noted on his website (he says much more as always but it is a good quote for here:

"You don’t have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven. There is no magic level of works one needs to achieve in order to go to heaven. One is saved the moment one is initially justified. The only things one then does is good works because one loves God (the only kind which receive rewards) and not choose to cast out God’s grace by mortal sin. And even if one does cast it out by mortal sin, the only thing needed to get it back was the same thing needed to get it in the first place — repentance, faith, and sacrament, except the sacrament in this case is confession rather than baptism.

People try to make the Catholic message sound complex, but it’s really simple: “Repent, believe and be baptized; then if you commit mortal sin, repent, believe, and confess. Period.”"

(of course a Christian – will live “faith working in love” and can of course commit a mortal sin by some grave omission of a needed work --like seeing that dying man on your door step and step over him your way to work not giving him what he needs to live etc)