Was Muhammad a Prophet of the Judeo-Christian God ?

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IgnatianPhilo said:
God allows his people to be punished, but he doesn’t abandon them like he has in Bahai. While many clergy have lead people astray, many more clergy have held the Church together by being faithful to the deposit.
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How has God abandoned people in the Baha’i religion??

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Servant19 said:
How has God abandoned people in the Baha’i religion??

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When God established Islam(in your view) he did so not with his people (the church) who desperately needed guidance. You allege Christianity was so hopelessly corrupted by priests and ignorant theologians, fine. How does your God choose to remedy the situation? He goes to Arab pagans, worse than Christians in that they are not even in continuation with what he started in Abraham through Israel to Jesus. He establishes them and unites them and in their might they take over Christian lands, they seek constantly and to this day to conquer Rome based on the promises of the Prophet Muhammad.

There is no consolation for Christians, we are the worst of creatures, we are doomed to hell. The message is convert to Islam, be enslaved or die. If as Bahai asserts Islam was the next dispensation and at least until the time of Ali Nuri Islam was partially the right way, sanctioned by God. The Christian west has no sanctity, we are vile in God’s sight because we worship his son as God. That seems to me the abandoning of Christianity.

To summarize, God wanted to do over.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
When God established Islam(in your view) he did so not with his people (the church) who desperately needed guidance. You allege Christianity was so hopelessly corrupted by priests and ignorant theologians, fine. How does your God choose to remedy the situation? He goes to Arab pagans, worse than Christians in that they are not even in continuation with what he started in Abraham through Israel to Jesus. He establishes them and unites them and in their might they take over Christian lands, they seek constantly and to this day to conquer Rome based on the promises of the Prophet Muhammad.

There is no consolation for Christians, we are the worst of creatures, we are doomed to hell. The message is convert to Islam, be enslaved or die. If as Bahai asserts Islam was the next dispensation and at least until the time of Ali Nuri Islam was partially the right way, sanctioned by God. The Christian west has no sanctity, we are vile in God’s sight because we worship his son as God. That seems to me the abandoning of Christianity.

To summarize, God wanted to do over.
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That is a nice story 🙂

God ALWAYS goes contrary to the ways and desires of men. Why?
Were you to ponder, but for a while, these utterances in your heart, you would surely find the portals of understanding unlocked before your face, and would behold all knowledge and the mysteries thereof unveiled before your eyes. Such things take place only that the souls of men may develop and be delivered from the prison-cage of self and desire. Otherwise, that ideal King hath, throughout eternity, been in His Essence independent of the comprehension of all beings, and will continue, for ever, in His own Being to be exalted above the adoration of every soul. A single breeze of His affluence doth suffice to adorn all mankind with the robe of wealth; and one drop out of the ocean of His bountiful grace is enough to confer upon all beings the glory of everlasting life. But inasmuch as the divine Purpose hath decreed that the true should be known from the false, and the sun from the shadow, He hath, therefore, in every season sent down upon mankind the showers of tests from His realm of glory.
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And now ponder in thy heart the commotion which God stirreth up. Reflect upon the strange and manifold trials with which He doth test His servants. Consider how He hath suddenly chosen from among His servants, and entrusted with the exalted mission of divine guidance Him Who was known as guilty of homicide, Who, Himself, had acknowledged His cruelty, and Who for well-nigh thirty years had, in the eyes of the world, been reared in the home of Pharaoh and been nourished at his table. Was not God, the omnipotent King, able to withhold the hand of Moses from murder, so that manslaughter should not be attributed unto Him, causing bewilderment and aversion among the people?
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***Behold how contrary are the ways of the Manifestations of God, as ordained by the King of creation, to the ways and desires of men! As thou comest to comprehend the essence of these divine mysteries, thou wilt grasp the purpose of God, the divine Charmer, the Best-Beloved. Thou wilt regard the words and the deeds of that almighty Sovereign as one and the same; in such wise that whatsoever thou dost behold in His deeds, the same wilt thou find in His sayings, and whatsoever thou dost read in His sayings, that wilt thou recognize in His deeds. Thus it is that outwardly such deeds and words are the fire of vengeance unto the wicked, and inwardly the waters of mercy unto the righteous. Were the eye of the heart to open, it would surely perceive that the words revealed from the heaven of the will of God are at one with, and the same as, the deeds that have emanated from the Kingdom of divine power. ***
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reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-2.html

That’s why 🙂

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Servant19 said:
That is a nice story 🙂

God ALWAYS goes contrary to the ways and desires of men. Why?

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-2.html

That’s why 🙂

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Here’s the problem I see it posing for you. Bahai are fond of bringing up the examples of manifestations before hand and so I will do so now. What did God intend to start through Abraham in Isaac through Israel to Christ? He started a family, a family which would in the end produce the Messiah and in that Messiah out of the Old Israel, New Israel was formed for the world. It wasn’t just Jew, it was not Jew and Gentile together united in Jesus Christ. You have to dismiss that entire Project and say it went awry because of man. Mind you as a Bahai it went awry in many other families. God decided first to start with the Hindus and then abandoned them. He then starts a strange little experiment called Buddhism which he abandons before turning back to Israel. Every single time, God seemingly isn’t able to hold people together, its as if mankind’s nature is to go against God every single time.

Now God has started a new family in Islam, continued through Ali Nuri into the Bahai faith. You have no assurance you haven’t gone astray as of now. It’s not about God going against the desires of men, he does that constantly, but God is seemingly helpless to overcome those desires in the bahai faith. There is no building up to something great, there is only constant failure and constant disappointment.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Here’s the problem I see it posing for you. Bahai are fond of bringing up the examples of manifestations before hand and so I will do so now. What did God intend to start through Abraham in Isaac through Israel to Christ? He started a family, a family which would in the end produce the Messiah and in that Messiah out of the Old Israel, New Israel was formed for the world. It wasn’t just Jew, it was not Jew and Gentile together united in Jesus Christ. You have to dismiss that entire Project and say it went awry because of man. Mind you as a Bahai it went awry in many other families. God decided first to start with the Hindus and then abandoned them. He then starts a strange little experiment called Buddhism which he abandons before turning back to Israel. Every single time, God seemingly isn’t able to hold people together, its as if mankind’s nature is to go against God every single time.

Now God has started a new family in Islam, continued through Ali Nuri into the Bahai faith. You have no assurance you haven’t gone astray as of now. It’s not about God going against the desires of men, he does that constantly, but God is seemingly helpless to overcome those desires in the bahai faith. There is no building up to something great, there is only constant failure and constant disappointment.
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Imagine you are a God.

You have a Creation, you have humans within this creation which are made in your image. You bestow upon human beings free will.
You place within them something sacred which is a treasure which belongs to you (God)
You clothe them with flesh and surround them in the beginning with desires attractive to this flesh.
The aim is to guide them away from fleshy desires so that the treasure you have placed within them is returned to you, not tainted by fleshy dross but removed from it, and therefore of the highest lustre.

Initially, as populations are isolated you teach them about this treasure within them according to geography. You teach the nations around Israel through the Prophets of Israel and the Messiah. You teach the oriental and Indian regions through Krishna and Buddha. You teach the completely isolated indigenous populations of Africa, South America, Australia and the Americas through indigenous spirituality and their Prophets.

At some point each of these separate stories from separate geographies, reaching guiding their own populations towards the gifting of this treasure back to our one Creator, need to come together.

All the different stories which have the same conclusion need to become one big story and collectively we can all observe that:

“From Thee we came, and unto Thee shall we return”

And the story will not end until we don’t see separations between the Kingdoms of God, so there shall not be a separation between the Kingdom of earth and heaven and on earth it shall be as it is in heaven.

That is the story so far.

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IgnatianPhilo said:
Here’s the problem I see it posing for you. Bahai are fond of bringing up the examples of manifestations before hand and so I will do so now. What did God intend to start through Abraham in Isaac through Israel to Christ? He started a family, a family which would in the end produce the Messiah and in that Messiah out of the Old Israel, New Israel was formed for the world. It wasn’t just Jew, it was not Jew and Gentile together united in Jesus Christ. You have to dismiss that entire Project and say it went awry because of man. Mind you as a Bahai it went awry in many other families. God decided first to start with the Hindus and then abandoned them. He then starts a strange little experiment called Buddhism which he abandons before turning back to Israel. Every single time, God seemingly isn’t able to hold people together, its as if mankind’s nature is to go against God every single time.

Now God has started a new family in Islam, continued through Ali Nuri into the Bahai faith. You have no assurance you haven’t gone astray as of now. It’s not about God going against the desires of men, he does that constantly, but God is seemingly helpless to overcome those desires in the bahai faith. There is no building up to something great, there is only constant failure and constant disappointment.
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And the Manifestations didn’t do such a good Job with each of these religions because now the people of these religions don’t believe in such a thing as a “Manifestation of God” 🤷
 
Techno2000 said:
And the Manifestations didn’t do such a good Job with each of these religions because now the people of these religions don’t believe in such a thing as a “Manifestation of God” 🤷
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We must ask why God didn’t just give you the knowledge of all that is from the moment you were born without a dot of effort on your part?

You would’ve been a lot happier that way I think 🙂

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Kaninchen said:
Which we weren’t talking about.

By the way, look up ‘covenant with the sons of Noah’.
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Ok I’ve read about the covenant with the sons of Noah and the seven laws now sister Kaninchen

What is the point you were trying to make in this regard?

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Servant19 said:
I would say the same thing about the modern day teachings of Christianity Jimmy, all 20,000+ of them…

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You can’t say that about the Catholic Church, we are not one of the 20-30,000+ other denominations.We are the original Christian Church! We believe the same teachings of Jesus Christ now as we have for over 2,000 years. Have the same Apostolic Succession and all Seven Sacraments. God Bless, Memaw
 
Memaw said:
You can’t say that about the Catholic Church, we are not one of the 20-30,000+ other denominations.We are the original Christian Church! We believe the same teachings of Jesus Christ now as we have for over 2,000 years. Have the same Apostolic Succession and all Seven Sacraments. God Bless, Memaw
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Hi memaw

How do I know that for sure? The Orthodox tell me the same thing.
Lutherans tell me all the problems with Catholicism and its demise.
Protestants are all over the place, I can’t keep up with the “true church”…

There is every reason to examine Muhammad’s claim that Christianity has fallen and He has come to raise it up again.

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Servant19 said:
We must ask why God didn’t just give you the knowledge of all that is from the moment you were born without a dot of effort on your part?

You would’ve been a lot happier that way I think 🙂

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Yes, it will take Olympian efforts of mental gymnastics and glossing over things to arrive at your conclusions. 🙂
 
Servant19 said:
Hi memaw

How do I know that for sure? The Orthodox tell me the same thing.
Lutherans tell me all the problems with Catholicism and its demise.
Protestants are all over the place, I can’t keep up with the “true church”…

There is every reason to examine Muhammad’s claim that Christianity has fallen and He has come to raise it up again.

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The Orthodox are sort of right though. Their Church truly is Apostolic (their bishops legitimately go back through an unbroken like via Apostolic Succession to one of Christ’s Apostles) and hence they do celebrate valid sacraments. That isn’t a guarantee though that they are the Church Christ established.

As far as Mohammed is concerned, the Eastern Orthodox Church didn’t even exist back when he was around; the only major division that had taken place so far was the schism that divided the Catholic Church and the Oriental Orthodox churches; and the Oriental Orthodox churches to this day still do retain valid apostolic succession, and celebrate valid sacraments as well. 🤷
 
Micosil said:
The Orthodox are sort of right though. Their Church truly is Apostolic (their bishops legitimately go back through an unbroken like via Apostolic Succession to one of Christ’s Apostles) and hence they do celebrate valid sacraments. That isn’t a guarantee though that they are the Church Christ established.

As far as Mohammed is concerned, the Eastern Orthodox Church didn’t even exist back when he was around; the only major division that had taken place so far was the schism that divided the Catholic Church and the Oriental Orthodox churches; and the Oriental Orthodox churches to this day still do retain valid apostolic succession, and celebrate valid sacraments as well. 🤷
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Right and Protestantism didn’t exist either when Muhammad was around.
 
Micosil said:
The Orthodox are sort of right though. Their Church truly is Apostolic (their bishops legitimately go back through an unbroken like via Apostolic Succession to one of Christ’s Apostles) and hence they do celebrate valid sacraments. That isn’t a guarantee though that they are the Church Christ established.

As far as Mohammed is concerned, the Eastern Orthodox Church didn’t even exist back when he was around; the only major division that had taken place so far was the schism that divided the Catholic Church and the Oriental Orthodox churches; and the Oriental Orthodox churches to this day still do retain valid apostolic succession, and celebrate valid sacraments as well. 🤷
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Be that as it may Micosil, there is one extra thing needed in Christianity, (and I say this humbly and with no intent of malice in my heart, I pray you see that) and that is how to fully, and without reservation, embrace all that Muhammad was and is, in order to truly love the spirit that inspires and animates the daily lives of the millions upon millions of loving, kind and generous Muslims throughout the world.

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Servant19 said:
embrace all that Muhammad was and is, in order to truly love the spirit that inspires and animates the daily lives of the millions upon millions of loving, kind and generous Muslims throughout the world.

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Do Muslim embrace all that Jesus was and is in order to truly love the spirit that inspires and animates the daily lives of the millions upon millions of loving, kind and generous Christians throughout the world ?
 
Techno2000 said:
Do Muslim embrace all that Jesus was and is in order to truly love the spirit that inspires and animates the daily lives of the millions upon millions of loving, kind and generous Christians throughout the world ?
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Do you have scriptural support directly relating to who Muhammad was?

Unfortunately some Muslims are unscriptural in their understanding of Jesus.

That is why Baha’u’llah came to enable everyone to be embraced under Scriptural Truth.

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Servant19 said:
That is why Baha’u’llah came to enable everyone to be embraced under Scriptural Truth.

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The only truth that I can gather from Bahaism is that there is some kind of Deity out there that connects all of us, but we Catholics already know this.
 
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