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louey
Guest
This thread is being hijacked by the TRUTH. You can not tolerate the truth, so you call it is bigotry to state the truth. Again, JPII, Karol Wojtyla was an apostate.
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R
redrosetea
Guest
The only thing I can’t tolerate here is you!
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Catherine_S
Guest
Why do you say this?
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louey
Guest
Why Redrosetea? You have yet, or any other poster on this thread, presented what is the cause of offense? I only presented the truth…can’t tolerate the truth? Sad.
J
Jeanette_L
Guest
What are these verses saying to you Louey? I’m just curious. What is your interpretation of these verses?
And how then does your interpretation of them relate to JPII and his so called status as an apostate?
You see, the only one here espousing any kind of hate talk is you. Does this mean then, that you are in fact “the world” that the verses are talking about?
J
JReducation
Guest
Louey
I’m afraid that you have not presented truth. You have successfully presented your opinion of John Paul II and successfully quoted some scripture passages.
The truth is that one must first define the term mystic and understand its meaning within the context of mystical theology to determine whether a person is a mystic or not. In fact, most saints were not mystics. All mystics have been saints, but not all saints have been mystics.
A Mystic is a person who reaches a state of union with God where the soul and the Divine are in constant dialogue without anyone noticing, except the person who is involved in the experience. The experience must be confirmed by the person’s spiritual director or spiritual guide who must be well trained in the transcendent matters of the soul.
Friar Reneiro, OFM Cap, a Capuchin Franciscan Brother has been the official papal spiritual director for more than 20 years. The Capuchin Franciscan Friars and the Carmelite Friars have a tradition of mysticism that dates back more than 800 years, as their founders were mystics and the Franciscan and Carmelite Rules are both Mystical treatises. According the John Paul’s spiritual director, he was a man whose soul was in constant communion with the Divine, to the point that he could perceive the presence of the Divine in situations that most of us cannot.
He prayed with Muslims and Jews, this is true. However, when his prayer is examined by someone who is an expert on mysticism, that person found that while at prayer with Muslims, Jews, Christians and others, John Paul literally perceived the presence of the Divine, not through Islam, Judaism or other, but through his own soul. God mediated his presence to him through is soul. It did not matter who was with him at prayer, John Paul’s soul was able to fulfil the truth that God is omnipresent. Therefore, whether in a large Catholic Cathedral, a mosque or a synagogue, God’s presence is mediated by grace to the person who is filled with grace. It is not the environment or those around you that allow you to experience the Divinity of God, but God allows you to experience him. All John Paul did was begin to pray or think about God and God allowed him to experience him through his sense. This is mysticism.
John Paul’s writings and conversations with his spiritual director and his secretary have been carefully analyzed. It was not John Paul who called himself a mystic. He simply described what he experienced. It is theological experts in the area of Mystical Theology that have said, these are the same experiences that Francis of Assisi, Catherine of Siena, Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Elizabeth Ann Seton and Mother Teresa had.
In addition, one must ask if the experiences are self-induced or if they are of God. The Church uses theological and philosophical tools for such things. The tools so far indicate that his state of total disconnection from the world around him when he listened to the scripture, prayed before the Blessed Sacrament, consecrated at mass were not of his doing. He was in total control of his faculties. Therefore he was not imagining this. There is no evidence of mental illness. His logic and his explanations are too rational. In addition, he was not in control of what came over him, though he was aware. All of the evidence points to a person who was fully aware that something different was happening, had no control over what was happening, but was not afraid of it and had done nothing to induce it. This rules out the possibility of psychosis.
He also had a great experience of peace during these contacts with the Divine. A soul who is tormented cannot feel peace, for Satan is incapable of inducing peace in any soul. A soul in torment would feel disorientation, anger, lust, and rebellion against God. Everyone who ever witnessed one of these events reports that John Paul looked at peace before, during and after the event.
Finally, the greatest proof of mysticism vs. sin is charity. A mystical soul grows in charity. In the end, all of the other virtues are useless. After this life there will be no need for faith. We will know God as he truly is. There will be no need for hope, for hope is trust and once we have reached God, all promises will have been fulfilled. The only thing left for the soul after death is love. The soul will continue to grow in love of God. What those who knew John Paul since his youth say is that they cold actually measure the depth and growth of his love for others, the Church and God, because it became increasingly more apparent as he got older. In addition, his own words when he was short provide us with a mystical insight. He said that his mind told him that he was gong to die and his soul knew that his mind was deceiving him. He also reported that his soul knew that Mary was keeping him alive; because it was her son’s will that he live. When these reports were examined, all of the psychiatrists and medical doctors who analyzed them said that his mind was right. He should have died. There was no way that the bullet could have missed his heart and yet it did. The angle at which the bullet entered the body should have pierced his heart and come out of his back. Somehow, the bullet became lodged facing away from his heart. There is not physical explanation. Since he was not insane, there was not way to prove that what he experienced while he was collapsing was anything other than a contact with the Divine. Also, what he experienced had a great many details and his collapse was measured by the Swiss Guards and they said that he collapsed in a matter of seconds. Yet, his words take more than 60 seconds. The two only add up if one accepts in faith that God can and does intervene in human life.
To prove that he was not a mystic, one would have to find evidence that would show that all of the above is possible without Divine intervention.
JR
I’m afraid that you have not presented truth. You have successfully presented your opinion of John Paul II and successfully quoted some scripture passages.
The truth is that one must first define the term mystic and understand its meaning within the context of mystical theology to determine whether a person is a mystic or not. In fact, most saints were not mystics. All mystics have been saints, but not all saints have been mystics.
A Mystic is a person who reaches a state of union with God where the soul and the Divine are in constant dialogue without anyone noticing, except the person who is involved in the experience. The experience must be confirmed by the person’s spiritual director or spiritual guide who must be well trained in the transcendent matters of the soul.
Friar Reneiro, OFM Cap, a Capuchin Franciscan Brother has been the official papal spiritual director for more than 20 years. The Capuchin Franciscan Friars and the Carmelite Friars have a tradition of mysticism that dates back more than 800 years, as their founders were mystics and the Franciscan and Carmelite Rules are both Mystical treatises. According the John Paul’s spiritual director, he was a man whose soul was in constant communion with the Divine, to the point that he could perceive the presence of the Divine in situations that most of us cannot.
He prayed with Muslims and Jews, this is true. However, when his prayer is examined by someone who is an expert on mysticism, that person found that while at prayer with Muslims, Jews, Christians and others, John Paul literally perceived the presence of the Divine, not through Islam, Judaism or other, but through his own soul. God mediated his presence to him through is soul. It did not matter who was with him at prayer, John Paul’s soul was able to fulfil the truth that God is omnipresent. Therefore, whether in a large Catholic Cathedral, a mosque or a synagogue, God’s presence is mediated by grace to the person who is filled with grace. It is not the environment or those around you that allow you to experience the Divinity of God, but God allows you to experience him. All John Paul did was begin to pray or think about God and God allowed him to experience him through his sense. This is mysticism.
John Paul’s writings and conversations with his spiritual director and his secretary have been carefully analyzed. It was not John Paul who called himself a mystic. He simply described what he experienced. It is theological experts in the area of Mystical Theology that have said, these are the same experiences that Francis of Assisi, Catherine of Siena, Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross, Elizabeth Ann Seton and Mother Teresa had.
In addition, one must ask if the experiences are self-induced or if they are of God. The Church uses theological and philosophical tools for such things. The tools so far indicate that his state of total disconnection from the world around him when he listened to the scripture, prayed before the Blessed Sacrament, consecrated at mass were not of his doing. He was in total control of his faculties. Therefore he was not imagining this. There is no evidence of mental illness. His logic and his explanations are too rational. In addition, he was not in control of what came over him, though he was aware. All of the evidence points to a person who was fully aware that something different was happening, had no control over what was happening, but was not afraid of it and had done nothing to induce it. This rules out the possibility of psychosis.
He also had a great experience of peace during these contacts with the Divine. A soul who is tormented cannot feel peace, for Satan is incapable of inducing peace in any soul. A soul in torment would feel disorientation, anger, lust, and rebellion against God. Everyone who ever witnessed one of these events reports that John Paul looked at peace before, during and after the event.
Finally, the greatest proof of mysticism vs. sin is charity. A mystical soul grows in charity. In the end, all of the other virtues are useless. After this life there will be no need for faith. We will know God as he truly is. There will be no need for hope, for hope is trust and once we have reached God, all promises will have been fulfilled. The only thing left for the soul after death is love. The soul will continue to grow in love of God. What those who knew John Paul since his youth say is that they cold actually measure the depth and growth of his love for others, the Church and God, because it became increasingly more apparent as he got older. In addition, his own words when he was short provide us with a mystical insight. He said that his mind told him that he was gong to die and his soul knew that his mind was deceiving him. He also reported that his soul knew that Mary was keeping him alive; because it was her son’s will that he live. When these reports were examined, all of the psychiatrists and medical doctors who analyzed them said that his mind was right. He should have died. There was no way that the bullet could have missed his heart and yet it did. The angle at which the bullet entered the body should have pierced his heart and come out of his back. Somehow, the bullet became lodged facing away from his heart. There is not physical explanation. Since he was not insane, there was not way to prove that what he experienced while he was collapsing was anything other than a contact with the Divine. Also, what he experienced had a great many details and his collapse was measured by the Swiss Guards and they said that he collapsed in a matter of seconds. Yet, his words take more than 60 seconds. The two only add up if one accepts in faith that God can and does intervene in human life.
To prove that he was not a mystic, one would have to find evidence that would show that all of the above is possible without Divine intervention.
JR
J
Jeanette_L
Guest
Thank you JR. We needed some clarification here as to what we were supposed to be discussing, analyzing.
This is a beautiful explanation that I think we all can understand and use to help us see JP II and his spirituality within this context of true mysticism as taught by the Church.
This is a beautiful explanation that I think we all can understand and use to help us see JP II and his spirituality within this context of true mysticism as taught by the Church.
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louey
Guest
Jeanette, in what way am I espousing “any kind of hate talk?” Because I say, as all Catholic’s say, JPII is an apostate? Does that equate to hate? I think not.
R
redrosetea
Guest
I feel the whole shooting episode was very mystical…A small child in the crowd had a picture of the Blessed Mother with him
The Pope leaned forward for a better look…that small act might have saved his life
It could have changed the angle of his body just enough…It happened on the feast of Our Lady of Fatima
Sr Lucy was convinced this was the third secret, and so was the pope
The Pope leaned forward for a better look…that small act might have saved his life
It could have changed the angle of his body just enough…It happened on the feast of Our Lady of Fatima
Sr Lucy was convinced this was the third secret, and so was the pope
J
Jeanette_L
Guest
You called him an apostate, and idolator and evil.
Not a whole lot of love going on in all of that.
And to call a man evil is to pass judgment on his soul. You are not qualified to do so. You have taken upon yourself something that does not belong to you.
None of this flows from Charity. It flows from spiritual pride. This is why you cannot see JPII as a mystic. You have been blinded by your own pride.
But enough said. We have been given a great explanation above as to what we are supposed to be using to evaluate JPII. Your opinion and mine don’t really matter in light of Church teaching and the evidence surrounding his life and experiences.
J
JReducation
Guest
Not all Catholics say that John Paul Ii is an apostate. If you follow Catholic tradition, it takes a Council of Bishops to declare a pope apostate. No such Council has been convened. According to tradition, the only person who can unilaterally declare a person apostate is either a bishop within his diocese or the Pope for the Universal Church. Other than that, no one can unilaterally condemn another as apostate. This is the tradtion of the Church for 2000 years.
A Council of Bishops can do it, but the bishops must have at least 2/3 of the vote to do so.
There has not been such a council to judge John Paul II. Therefore, he is not apostate until it is officially declared, unless he is declared a saint first. If that happens, he can never be declared apostate. Beatification and canonization are infallible papal decrees.
Mother Teresa also prayed with Hindus and Muslims. She is beatified. Therefore, she is not apostate. Beatification is infallible and unretractable.
JR
J
JReducation
Guest
The surgeon said that the bullet entered from the left at an angle, which should have hit the heart, which is in the center of the thoracic cavity. When they went in, they found the bullet pointing left instead of right, as if it had entered with the back end first. This is a physical impossibility. Bullets do not enter with the flat side facing forward.
JR
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redrosetea
Guest
I have heard but I haven’t read this is fact that the Soviet Union called for the hit on the Pope
I think Yugoslavia was somehow involved…Pope JP II forgave the man who shot him…
I think Yugoslavia was somehow involved…Pope JP II forgave the man who shot him…
G
GemmaRose
Guest
I think it’s a rather universal experience that when one is in the presence of a very holy person, it can be “sensed.”
Whether reading about experiences people had with the great Saints of old, or more contemporary experiences with someone such as Mother Teresa, true holiness can be felt.
I can attest to the fact that this was the case with Pope John Paul II.
I was a member of the choir which sang at the Papal Mass at Aqueduct Racetrack in 1995. The platform on which the choir was situated was adjoining the platform on which the altar was situated and right next to the clear ground space on which the Papal helicopter landed.
When the helicopter landed and the doors opened, as soon as the Pope appeared, this tremendous aura of holiness started to flow out from him. (I can also attest that it was nothing like the feeling of normal human excitement… nothing like the excitement of seeing the Beatles at Shea, nor at seeing, and meeting, several other famous popular bands and artists – I was somewhat of a concert junkie in my youth.)
As he climbed the steps between our platform and the altar platform, this feeling became stronger and stronger… and when he got to the top, turned towards us, waved and blessed us, I’m surprised we all didn’t fall down in a dead faint.
Only very deep holiness can produce such an effect, and only the deepest levels of prayer can lead one to such depths of holiness.
It would surprise me greatly if Pope John Paul II was adjudged not to have been a mystic given how holy he obviously was.
Whether reading about experiences people had with the great Saints of old, or more contemporary experiences with someone such as Mother Teresa, true holiness can be felt.
I can attest to the fact that this was the case with Pope John Paul II.
I was a member of the choir which sang at the Papal Mass at Aqueduct Racetrack in 1995. The platform on which the choir was situated was adjoining the platform on which the altar was situated and right next to the clear ground space on which the Papal helicopter landed.
When the helicopter landed and the doors opened, as soon as the Pope appeared, this tremendous aura of holiness started to flow out from him. (I can also attest that it was nothing like the feeling of normal human excitement… nothing like the excitement of seeing the Beatles at Shea, nor at seeing, and meeting, several other famous popular bands and artists – I was somewhat of a concert junkie in my youth.)
As he climbed the steps between our platform and the altar platform, this feeling became stronger and stronger… and when he got to the top, turned towards us, waved and blessed us, I’m surprised we all didn’t fall down in a dead faint.
Only very deep holiness can produce such an effect, and only the deepest levels of prayer can lead one to such depths of holiness.
It would surprise me greatly if Pope John Paul II was adjudged not to have been a mystic given how holy he obviously was.
H
HOPEFUL_IN_UK
Guest
Gemma, I will always regret not having seen him in person.
When JPII died, I sense a lot of joy all around me. I mean, people were sad, sure, but does anybody else remember there being an overall feeling of joy? I really felt as if, when he died, Heaven opened up to receive him and a lot of heavenly glory radiated out, like light from an opening in a roof.
W
wcknight
Guest
It is very clear that the vast majority of Catholics and the rest of the world believes that John Paul was a very holy man. Only a few folks like our friend, louey thinks otherwise. Such intolerence at such a very early age is a bit disturbing. He would do well to talk to a priest about his views on John Paul.
Telling folks the Pope is the Antichrist, is exactly what a fundamentalist would do. He’s on a slippery slope to pure protestantism. He sounds like he may have come from a fundamentalist background, and if he didn’t before, he sure is headed that way.
I pray that he and folks like him, develop a much more tolerant attitude towards other faiths. Its that type of bigotry that leads to wars and makes this world a much more dangerous place. Jesus, the Prince of Peace, would be appalled at such a hateful attitude.
You will notice that Jesus when He encountered the Roman centurion did not ask him to become a Jew or even a follower before He cured his daughter.
John Paul recognized that people are taught the faith that they are born into. IF all they knew for most of their life was something other than Christianity, then living a decent life as best they knew how was good enough for God. IF all you know is Islam or Hindu or something else, how can you share in God’s kingdom ? By accepting another faith that you may not have even heard about ??? That is not a reasonable expectation.
Even if some stranger suddenly tells you that everything you were ever taught and have lived with all your life is pure fiction, would you believe them ? The truth is no one knows for certain who is exactly right. Everyone may think their version of the truth is 100% correct, but is it really ?
What if Jesus Himself comes to you and tells you that Islam or some other faith has superceded Catholicism. Do you turn your whole life around and become muslim ? Do you think you would be able to convince all your friends to convert, or convince all the Catholics or the whole world ? And if you could not, do you really believe that Jesus would eternally damn everyone who did not believe you ???
For a God who created us all, who is all merciful, who is our Father in Heaven, who understands everyone with compassion and love, such expectations are totally unreasonable.
John Paul reconized that even though the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ, God still loves all His children, and everyone who does the will of God, even though they do not acknowledge Christianity as their faith will share in building the kingdom of God.
It is the only way that anyone can reconcile that God loves evevyone, and He does not condemn good decent people merely because they are not born Christian or Catholic.
Telling folks the Pope is the Antichrist, is exactly what a fundamentalist would do. He’s on a slippery slope to pure protestantism. He sounds like he may have come from a fundamentalist background, and if he didn’t before, he sure is headed that way.
I pray that he and folks like him, develop a much more tolerant attitude towards other faiths. Its that type of bigotry that leads to wars and makes this world a much more dangerous place. Jesus, the Prince of Peace, would be appalled at such a hateful attitude.
You will notice that Jesus when He encountered the Roman centurion did not ask him to become a Jew or even a follower before He cured his daughter.
John Paul recognized that people are taught the faith that they are born into. IF all they knew for most of their life was something other than Christianity, then living a decent life as best they knew how was good enough for God. IF all you know is Islam or Hindu or something else, how can you share in God’s kingdom ? By accepting another faith that you may not have even heard about ??? That is not a reasonable expectation.
Even if some stranger suddenly tells you that everything you were ever taught and have lived with all your life is pure fiction, would you believe them ? The truth is no one knows for certain who is exactly right. Everyone may think their version of the truth is 100% correct, but is it really ?
What if Jesus Himself comes to you and tells you that Islam or some other faith has superceded Catholicism. Do you turn your whole life around and become muslim ? Do you think you would be able to convince all your friends to convert, or convince all the Catholics or the whole world ? And if you could not, do you really believe that Jesus would eternally damn everyone who did not believe you ???
For a God who created us all, who is all merciful, who is our Father in Heaven, who understands everyone with compassion and love, such expectations are totally unreasonable.
John Paul reconized that even though the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ, God still loves all His children, and everyone who does the will of God, even though they do not acknowledge Christianity as their faith will share in building the kingdom of God.
It is the only way that anyone can reconcile that God loves evevyone, and He does not condemn good decent people merely because they are not born Christian or Catholic.
G
GemmaRose
Guest
SANTO SUBITO ! 
:yup: :clapping:
SANTO SUBITO ! :yup: :clapping:
:yup: :clapping:SANTO SUBITO !
:yup: :clapping:
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louey
Guest
JR, do you really believe a Catholic is allowed to pray with false religions? Do you really believe a Muslim, an unbelieving Jew worship’s the same God as a CAtholic?Not all Catholics say that John Paul Ii is an apostate. If you follow Catholic tradition, it takes a Council of Bishops to declare a pope apostate. No such Council has been convened. According to tradition, the only person who can unilaterally declare a person apostate is either a bishop within his diocese or the Pope for the Universal Church. Other than that, no one can unilaterally condemn another as apostate. This is the tradtion of the Church for 2000 years.
A Council of Bishops can do it, but the bishops must have at least 2/3 of the vote to do so.
There has not been such a council to judge John Paul II. Therefore, he is not apostate until it is officially declared, unless he is declared a saint first. If that happens, he can never be declared apostate. Beatification and canonization are infallible papal decrees.
Mother Teresa also prayed with Hindus and Muslims. She is beatified. Therefore, she is not apostate. Beatification is infallible and unretractable.
JR
J
Jeanette_L
Guest
louey
There is only ONE God. The God of Abraham. ONE God.
The Jews worship this ONE God. The Muslims worship this ONE God. And we as Christians worship this ONE God.
The other world religions are in search of Him and have not yet found Him in the fullness of truth, but only know of Him in bits and pieces; but bits and pieces of truth nonetheless, mixed in with error. We are to love them and gently show them the way to the fullness. Gently show them. With great LOVE.
I’m not sure where there is confusion in this, except that you have bought into the Fundamentalist’s mindset. The Fundamentalist teaches that the Jews and the Muslims no longer worship the ONE God that we as Christians worship, because they have not as yet recognized Christ as the Incarnation. There is error in the Fundamentalist’s teaching concerning this. Catholicism is not Fundamentalism. I’m thinking that you are getting the two faiths mixed up.
Until you let go of this error, you will not be a true Catholic in your thinking. And you will never be at peace in your faith, because you will always be outside of the Church in what she believes and teaches, you will always be going against the grain of truth.
JPII was a mystic, his life and his spirituality give us all the evidence to this. He was a very holy man who loved God, imitated Christ, loved the Church, loved the people of the world and emptied himself in the service of all. He LOVED. He LOVED with great love. And the whole world knew this.
There is only ONE God. The God of Abraham. ONE God.
The Jews worship this ONE God. The Muslims worship this ONE God. And we as Christians worship this ONE God.
The other world religions are in search of Him and have not yet found Him in the fullness of truth, but only know of Him in bits and pieces; but bits and pieces of truth nonetheless, mixed in with error. We are to love them and gently show them the way to the fullness. Gently show them. With great LOVE.
I’m not sure where there is confusion in this, except that you have bought into the Fundamentalist’s mindset. The Fundamentalist teaches that the Jews and the Muslims no longer worship the ONE God that we as Christians worship, because they have not as yet recognized Christ as the Incarnation. There is error in the Fundamentalist’s teaching concerning this. Catholicism is not Fundamentalism. I’m thinking that you are getting the two faiths mixed up.
Until you let go of this error, you will not be a true Catholic in your thinking. And you will never be at peace in your faith, because you will always be outside of the Church in what she believes and teaches, you will always be going against the grain of truth.
JPII was a mystic, his life and his spirituality give us all the evidence to this. He was a very holy man who loved God, imitated Christ, loved the Church, loved the people of the world and emptied himself in the service of all. He LOVED. He LOVED with great love. And the whole world knew this.
L
louey
Guest
Jeanette, I dare say, your blindness of the truth runs deep. The Muslims, the talmudic Jew’s do not nor ever did worship the one true God. Your blindness is also the reason why you can not distinguish between what and who are good and what and who are evil. You do not know love, you do not know Christ.
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