WATCH: Dancer invokes pagan spirits during ceremony at Australian deacon’s ordination
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umamibella
Guest
What has that got to do with your thread on Aboriginal welcome to Country?
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Maximian
Guest
It’s an example which answers the argument that it is not enough just to sit back and trust the bishop, because another bishop may have a different view and as Catholics of conscience we have to take a position.
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umamibella
Guest
Did you look at my links?
This approach is just so foreign to me and I have no intention of taking on a position of disobedience after 60 odd years of Catholic life. My conscience is at peace and settled with whatever liturgy my parish chooses. My catechesis centered squarely on the gift of the Body and Blood and Christ Present for us no matter what the periphery conditions.
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brown_bear
Guest
@umamibella
Quoting (not you):
Apostates, heretics, and schismatics are not Catholic, because they are not part of the Church
Do you know what strikes me?
Not so much that I have been frequently attacked in these months: basically it means that I do not put anyone in awe and, moreover, often comes to a clarification, as we have done recently.
What puzzles me is that some time later I see others doing the same things I did, or worse, and nobody says anything.
This no longer suits me: I need to understand, to continue.
Quoting (not you):
Apostates, heretics, and schismatics are not Catholic, because they are not part of the Church
Do you know what strikes me?
Not so much that I have been frequently attacked in these months: basically it means that I do not put anyone in awe and, moreover, often comes to a clarification, as we have done recently.
What puzzles me is that some time later I see others doing the same things I did, or worse, and nobody says anything.
This no longer suits me: I need to understand, to continue.
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umamibella
Guest
I am trying to understand what you are saying? I speak up if I think things are being misrepresented. An example is this thread. I find people stuck with one idea and one idea only, dont want to listen to, or consider any other view.
Today I have been thinking of the best way to educate these people on Aboriginal Spirituality and that this is not just ‘a dancer’.
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brown_bear
Guest
Okay now it’s clearer 
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27lw
Guest
I understand that the local church and other institutions want to be respectful to the Aboriginal people. I understand including their culture in some way.
What i don’t understand is displacing Catholic teaching (or even just basic Christian teaching) during the Mass.
Does it seem that when the animal spirits are evoked, that seems rather, pagan? Why is it happening during a Catholic Mass?
If people want to go to a ceremony with Aboriginal spirituality, fine. But don’t corrupt the Christian content of a Mass with pagan (or any non-Christian) content.
Seriously, does this kind of thing happen in mosques in Australia?
What i don’t understand is displacing Catholic teaching (or even just basic Christian teaching) during the Mass.
Does it seem that when the animal spirits are evoked, that seems rather, pagan? Why is it happening during a Catholic Mass?
If people want to go to a ceremony with Aboriginal spirituality, fine. But don’t corrupt the Christian content of a Mass with pagan (or any non-Christian) content.
Seriously, does this kind of thing happen in mosques in Australia?
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Bithynian
Guest
Yes. There is a small, but significant, presence of Muslim Indigenous Australians, and I have read of these ceremonies being conducted in mosques. Likewise, they have been conducted in synagogues too.
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27lw
Guest
Any video of that? Aboriginal Welcome to country ceremonies in a mosque or synagogue?
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Bithynian
Guest
Not that I know of. This sort of ceremony is a very widespread, rather pedestrian affair in Australia. Recording a video of it is like recording yourself opening the mailbox or making a cup of tea.
I should say that most of the ceremonies that I’ve witnessed in person have not involved singing, dancing or smoking. Usually the elder makes a small speech that briefly discourses upon the history of the traditional landowners.
I will also add that the predominant religion of Indigenous Australians is Christianity, primarily Catholic and Protestant, and I have read of a few Greek Orthodox. Most, I would imagine, practice their traditional cultural rites, customs and spirituality and see no overarching conflict largely because so many of their practices have been recontextualised as Christian.
They still use their traditional forms and framing devices (what has been called ‘invocation of spirits’ in this thread), but most largely understand it in the vein of the invocation of the sun, moon, stars, animals and trees in Ps 148. Likewise, we Catholics have had satyrs and a peculiar pre-Christian allegory of (re-)birth on the baldachin over the high altar in St Peter’s for nearly four hundred years, but I haven’t witnessed any calls for it to be dismantled. Again, this is because any apparent pagan meaning has been emptied from them and replaced with Christian meanings.
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27lw
Guest
I don’t know, the satyr heads are a decorative element in a coat-of arms of a prominent donor family. I also believe that they are rather small.27lw:
Not that I know of. This sort of ceremony is a very widespread, rather pedestrian affair in Australia. Recording a video of it is like recording yourself opening the mailbox or making a cup of tea.
I should say that most of the ceremonies that I’ve witnessed in person have not involved singing, dancing or smoking. Usually the elder makes a small speech that briefly discourses upon the history of the traditional landowners.
I will also add that the predominant religion of Indigenous Australians is Christianity, primarily Catholic and Protestant, and I have read of a few Greek Orthodox. Most, I would imagine, practice their traditional cultural rites, customs and spirituality and see no overarching conflict largely because so many of their practices have been recontextualised as Christian.
They still use their traditional forms and framing devices (what has been called ‘invocation of spirits’ in this thread), but most largely understand it in the vein of the invocation of the sun, moon, stars, animals and trees in Ps 148. Likewise, we Catholics have had satyrs and a peculiar pre-Christian allegory of (re-)birth on the baldachin over the high altar in St Peter’s for nearly four hundred years, but I haven’t witnessed any calls for it to be dismantled. Again, this is because any apparent pagan meaning has been emptied from them and replaced with Christian meanings.
It’ not like they are presenting the satyrs’ heads and childbirth images during Mass, and saying “Now let the spirit of satyrs bless us all during this Mass, and may the spirit of childbirth and rebirth give us vitality (or whatever)”.
I see a difference. Maybe you don’t.
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Bithynian
Guest
I don’t see an issue. But I did attend St Peter’s many years ago for a tour with a few Catholic Ugandan colleagues. When I pointed out some of its features, namely the satyr heads and childbirth allegory, from an accompanying art book, one remarked ‘our ancestors destroyed all our idols at the encouragement of missionaries, why does the Pope tolerate idols in his house?’ It was interesting to see the challenges in attempting to articulate cultural differences even where the faith is the same.
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Feanor2
Guest
And you shouldn’t find it in ours. It’s blasphemous and goes against 2,000 years of teaching. Saints have died for stopping less than this.
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WOW! I hope Michael Voris is on top of this!
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WOW! I hope Michael Voris is on top of this!
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