Water baptism cannot make you right with God

[Philthy]

The ritual of dipping in water has been done away (Col. 2:14).

**John The Baptist also stated that water baptism is over . . . **

**Mr 1:8 - **
"I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

Mt 3:11 -
"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

**pneumati - spirit **
puri - fire

**Pneuma and Pur had an exact meaning to a Hellenized culture. It dates several hundred years earlier and started with Zeno, the founder of the Stoics. **

Pneuma and Pur, in the simplist terms, ment life.

**Also, what type of baptism is Jesus talking about in Mr 10:38? **

**Mr 10:38 - **
But Jesus said to them, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?"

**Mr 10:39 - **
They said to Him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized

Being dipped in water?

Uhhhhh - what? Jesus *was *baptized in water and the holy Spirit descended on him. That would be John 1, I think. John 2 involves the miracle with…water…at the Wedding of Cana. John 3 includes the dialogue with Nicodemus where Christ says “Unless you are born of…water…and the Holy Spirit you will not see the Kingdom of God.” And guess what the next chapter talks about? Jesus and his disciples baptizing people…
And then in acts, when confronted with the fact that they just crucified their Messiah the Jews ask Peter, “What shall we do?”
And Peter says, “Repent and be baptized every one of you and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirt …” Please note, tabcom, that if being “baptized” exclusively meant receiving the holy Spirit (apart from water baptism) then Peter’s statement becomes redundant: “Repent and receive (the holy spirit) and you will receive…the holy Spirit…”
Sorry my friend, your version of events simply doesnt add up.

 

[Philthy]

**How many baptisms are there? **

Eph 4:5 {There is} one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism

John The Baptist said:

**"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. **

If there is only one baptism, and John said that Jesus’ baptism is greater than his, then the water baptism is done away with.

Nice try, but no deal. Johns baptism was a baptism of repentance and did not convey Grace - that is what has been done away with. That does not mean that the new, “one” baptism lacks water, it simply means that it conveys something different. Jesus’ baptism is a new baptism which conveyed Grace. That is the difference. The old water baptism of repentance is replaced by the new water baptism which conveys grace for the forgiveness of sins. The medium of water remains the instrument through which the baptism is usually performed.
This is easily supported by the numerous accounts of water baptisms which occured AFTER the events you cited from Matthews Gospel. One such irrefutable baptism of water would be the water baptism of Paul in Acts.
Like I said, nice try.

 

[guanophore]

I’m still confused as to why anyone would site John 3:5 as proof that baptism is of water. The context of Nicodemus’ question to Jesus has to do with being born again, NOT water baptism.
**Where do you get this doctrine from? **

This is what was handed down to us from the Apostles. I posted some of the Early Fathers, who wrote about it. We know that Jesus taught His apostles to baptise with water, and that they did this after his Ascension, and taught their successors to do the same. Your interpretation of this passage is a rather new innovation that has occurred in the last 40 years. It disregards all the teaching of the Church in the previous 2000 years!
tabcom;2439189:

I’m still waiting for an explict citation that says water AND spirit

You have it right there, you just believe that it means something else.

Who is the ‘anyone’ that Peter is referring to in his rhetorical question? It is the Jews. It was the Jews and their tradition that said that gentiles must perform the ritual of water baptism to be accepted amongst Jews. Peter is saying that if a gentile is baptized in the Holy Spirit, then they don’t need to perform the rituals handed down by the traditions of the Jews to be accepted within the Church.

Peter had to give an account of himself before the council of Jerusalem. Up until that point, it was his belief that the Gospel was for the Jews. To become a Jew, a Gentile had to be circumcised. When Jesus came, he changed the baptismal ceremony, just like He changed a number of the rituals, to reflect His fulfillment of the ritual. He did the same at the Passover meal, becoming Himself the Lamb. The Baptism of Christ is not the same baptism handed down by the Jews, although there were different kinds of ritual washings.

If Jesus did not intend to renew, refresh, and redifine baptism, why did He send John to baptize? this was not so that people could become Jews! John’s baptism of repentance was from God, and is part of the New Covenant.
tabcom;2439189:

Peter says in Acts 11:16:

"And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

He doesn’t say baptized with water AND with the Holy Spirit.

Elsewhere it does say that, though, like in the passage above in John where you think He is speaking of physical birth. And in the great commission, he uses the word for water baptism. Jesus joined the coming of the HS with the water baptism, and the two are not to be separated.

** I was waiting for someone to cite this verse, thank you.

To begin with, who says ‘See, here is water!’? The Ethiopian eunuch does. It was commonly known amongst the gentiles that Jews requiered the ritual of water baptism. Here was a gentile asking Philip, a Jew, a question about Scripture (Isa 53:7,8). In return, Philip preached Jesus to him (v. 35). Afterwards, the eunuch asks to be dipped in water. Philip does baptize him in water. **

Why?! Why did Philip do that if Jesus had set it aside?

**Ok…before you argue case closed on water baptism…wait!

Later, meaning a period of time after the eunuch’s water baptism. the apostles and elders met in Jerusalem to make the decree outlining four things as to what the gentiles must do to be accepted within the Church (Acts 15:13-21).

Omitted from the list was water baptism. **

You misunderstand the decrees of the council of Jerusalem. The issue there had nothing to do with baptism. They had already all been baptized when they believed. The list had more to do with what they were NOT to do, because it was understood that the Mosaic law was not to be applied to them. Water baptism was not mentioned because it was already a done deal. All new converts were baptized with water. That is the initiation rite into the the Body of Christ.

 

[guanophore]

**

I’m still awaiting a post that explicitly states that baptism is water AND of the Holy Spirit.

Baptized with the Holy Spirit is used seven times in the NT

Acts 11:16
Matt 3:11
Mark 1:8
Luke 3:16
John 1:33
1 Cor 12:13

The reference is to a once for all act whereby Christ places believers in the care and safekeeping of the Holy Spirit until the day He returns.

Doesn’t that trump any outwordly public ritual of being dipped in water?
**

You have an incomplete understanding of the teaching of Christ and the Apostles about Baptism. The Rite of Baptism is not an “outwordly public ritual” except for protestants that don’t understand the Teachings. It is a sacrament that both represents and enacts the grace it symbolizes. It is an act of obedience, yes, but also a great event of impartation of the HS, regeneration fo the heart, freedom from the bondage of original sin. I think, if you could just “pretend” that water baptism was what Jesus had in mind, and look at all that passages from that frame, you could see that.

 

[anthony022071]

As stated in my previous post, there is only one baptism (Eph. 4:5) and it is not of water (Matt 3:11). Therefore the ritual that you assume that Peter performed would have been superfluous.

What verse says that there is to be no baptism by water? It is Jesus Christ who baptizes men with the Holy Spirit,but men must baptize other men in the name of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ commanded the apostles to baptize men in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28,19). I do not assume that Peter baptized with water,I know he did,because Acts 10,47-48 says that he did. Baptism is also mentioned in Acts 18,8 and 19,1-7.

 

[Philthy]

I’m still confused as to why anyone would site John 3:5 as proof that baptism is of water. The context of Nicodemus’ question to Jesus has to do with being born again, NOT water baptism.
**Where do you get this doctrine from? **

---

Simple. From Scripture, Tradition and Church History (ECFs). The latter 2 strongly corroborate Scripture, as they must. No doubt you accept only the first source so I will prove it on your own terms.

---

Baptism is how you are “born again”. Why dont you carefully review John 3:5 and Titus 3:5 and you will see the parallels:
John 3:5
“Unless one is born of water and Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God”

Titus 3:5
"He saved us by the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit…

---

Do you notice any similarities there?
Born of **water **/ Bath of rebirth, *combined with *
the Spirit/holy Spirit, results in
entrance into the Kingdom of God/Salvation.
The parallels are undeniable, and so is the connection between the “born of water” from John with the “bath of rebirth” which clearly references water baptism. This is one very strong reason why people associate John 3:5 with baptism. Especially when you consider all the additional emphasis on water/spirit baptism in the NT.

 

[guanophore]

** How many baptisms are there?

Eph 4:5 {There is} one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism**

Ok, you are getting warmer! There is one water baptism. People don’t get baptized again, even if they fall away. Water baptism is a once in a lifetime sacrament.

There are other “baptisms”. This passage is referring only to water baptism, which is good for life. There is a baptism of desire, a baptism of suffering/blood, and the baptism of the HS.

** John The Baptist said:

"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

If there is only one baptism, and John said that Jesus’ baptism is greater than his, then the water baptism is done away with.
**

No, baptism was not “done away with”, as you can see by the behavior of the Apostles after the ascention of Christ. Philip, Peter, Paul, and others in the NT are baptizing with water. You can also see this from the early fathers, who wrote about what they were taught from the Apostles. The HS has been connected with the water baptism ever since Jesus was baptized, and joined water to the coming of the HS in His own person, and blew upon the Apostles, releasing the HS.

As stated in my previous post, there is only one baptism (Eph. 4:5) and it is not of water (Matt 3:11). Therefore the ritual that you assume that Peter performed would have been superfluous.

Please explain, then, why you think that the Apostles were engaged in superfluous behavior. Why, after Jesus told them to “teaching everyone all that I have commanded” and “the Spirit will guide you into all truth” and “I will be with you to the end of the age”, that all these promises of Jesus were weak and failed? How is it that, after spending 3 years under His teaching, and another 40 days after the resurrection, that they were engaged in this superfluous behavior? How did they get so lost?

Apparently you have not yet been educated about the many different types of baptism. But you are right, there is only one baptism of water.

 

[tabcom]

**I want to come back to Acts 10:47,48 for a moment.

In the original greek text, the verse reads,

No-any the water is-able to-forbid anyone of-the no to-be-baptized.

the word forbid is koluo - (ko-loo’-o) it is an infinitive. An infinitive is a verbal noun.

What Peter is saying is Forbid Water or Dam the Water. It has no value.

Besides that, in verse 48 . . .

(Peter) ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

That word ‘in’ comes from the greek word ‘en’. En means with or by. It is an infinitive. An infinitive is a verbal noun; it means ‘to be’ something or to change the condition of something. It does not mean to immerse into water; which is a verb.

The greek word for name is ‘onoma’. Onoma means authority.

Peter is ordering the gentiles to be baptized with the authority of Jesus Christ, which is the Holy Spirit.**

Philthy . . .

Jesus was baptized in water and the holy Spirit descended on him.

**
True. But the Holy Spirit was not given to the gentiles until Acts 2:38

Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

He did not tell the gentiles to be dipped in water.

Besides that, the word ‘in’ in this verse is the greek word ‘epi’. Epi means to super-impose. Thus, the verse means to super-impose the authority of Christ into your life.

**

I think. John 2 involves the miracle with…water…

**I’m not sure what you are thinking of. But John 1:33 is an excellent verse . . .
John 1:33
this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ **

at the Wedding of Cana.

If you are implying that Jesus turning water to wine dovetails into your water baptism argument, I couldn’t agree less

John 3 includes the dialogue with Nicodemus where Christ says “Unless you are born of…water…and the Holy Spirit you will not see the Kingdom of God.”

**
This is about the fourth time someone has tried to use this verse and say ‘see, water baptism’. Wrong again. The context of this verse is about being born again, not being dipped in water. **

And then in acts, when confronted with the fact that they just crucified their Messiah the Jews ask Peter, “What shall we do?”
And Peter says, “Repent and be baptized every one of you and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirt …”

That would be Acts 2:38 and I’ve already stated that the word ‘in’ does not mean to immerse into water.

Please note, tabcom, that if being “baptized” exclusively meant receiving the holy Spirit (apart from water baptism) then Peter’s statement becomes redundant:

Let me offer another possibilty, the English language is not the inspired word of God. There are 3 different greek words that have been ambiguously translated into the English word ‘in’. In addition, the word baptizo does not mean to immerse into water. (scroll back within this thread, I provided the Greek lexicon for the word).

**One such irrefutable baptism of water would be the water baptism of Paul in Acts.**I would be happy to discuss this in detail. Provided that you be more specific as to the citation of this ‘water baptism’.

Sorry my friend,

If you would be so kind as not to use the term ‘my friend’, its usage denotes hostility. Very un-christian like.

 

[tabcom]

**One more time . . .
John 3:4
Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old ? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”

3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

To be ‘born of water’ was an idiom. What Jesus is saying is that we have a physical body that was born first. We are ‘born again’ when Christ comes alive in us spiritaully. That comes through death to self and resurrecting in Christ daily.(Luke 9:23) **

 

[tabcom]

I do not assume that Peter baptized with water,I know he did,because Acts 10,47-48 says that he did.

**One more time . . .

In the original greek text, the verse reads,

No-any the water is-able to-forbid anyone of-the no to-be-baptized.

the word forbid is koluo - (ko-loo’-o) it is an infinitive. An infinitive is a verbal noun.

What Peter is saying is Forbid Water or Dam the Water. It has no value.

Besides that, in verse 48 . . .

(Peter) ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

That word ‘in’ comes from the greek word ‘en’. En means with or by. It is an infinitive. An infinitive is a verbal noun; it means ‘to be’ something or to change the condition of something. It does not mean to immerse into water; which is a verb.

The greek word for name is ‘onoma’. Onoma means authority.

Peter is ordering the gentiles to be baptized with the authority of Jesus Christ, which is the Holy Spirit.**

 

[guanophore]

I want to come back to Acts 10:47,48 for a moment. In the original greek text, the verse reads, No-any the water is-able to-forbid anyone of-the no to-be-baptized. the word forbid is koluo - (ko-loo’-o) it is an infinitive. An infinitive is a verbal noun. What Peter is saying is Forbid Water or Dam the Water. It has no value.

He is saying that water baptism should not be forbidden to the Gentiles, because God has made it clear they are eligible by pouring out His spirit upon them. In addition, if Peter meant the water had no value, why would his next action be to baptize everyone in water?

** Besides that, in verse 48 . . .(Peter) ordered them to be baptized in the name** of Jesus Christ.

That word ‘in’ comes from the greek word ‘en’. En means with or by. It is an infinitive. An infinitive is a verbal noun; it means ‘to be’ something or to change the condition of something. It does not mean to immerse into water; which is a verb.

The greek word for name is ‘onoma’. Onoma means authority.

Peter is ordering the gentiles to be baptized with the authority of Jesus Christ, which is the Holy Spirit.

Yes, Peter is ordering that the Gentiles be “dipped in water” with the authority of Jesus Christ. They had already received the HS, and now they needed the baptism that had been commanded by Christ. They are baptized in water, in the “name of the FAther, and the son, and the Holy Spirit”, just as is commanded in Matt. .

**
True. But the Holy Spirit was not given to the gentiles until Acts 2:38

Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

He did not tell the gentiles to be dipped in water.****

They were not Gentiles, they were Jews, visiting the City of Jerusalem for the Feast of Pentecost. If there were any Gentiles, then they had already been converted, and circumcised.
tabcom;2440217:

** Besides that, the word ‘in’ in this verse is the greek word ‘epi’. Epi means to super-impose. Thus, the verse means to super-impose the authority of Christ into your life.
**

**

Absolutely! This is why it is so important to have water baptism. Jesus commanded it, and by obeying Him, we embrace His authority over our lives!

**I’m not sure what you are thinking of. But John 1:33 is an excellent verse . . .
John 1:33 this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ **

Baptism with water happens at the same time as baptism in the HS. We know this because Jesus gave us a model at His own Baptism. Both happen at the same time.

** If you are implying that Jesus turning water to wine dovetails into your water baptism argument, I couldn’t agree less**

---

That might be a difficult metaphor to grasp. Water into wine is a symbol of the natural regenerated into the supernatural. In Baptism with water, the soul is regenerated with the New Wine of the Spirit.

** The context of this verse is about being born again, not being dipped in water. **

---

Both things happen at the same time. Interestingly, the way Catholics see this passage is congruent with the Apostolic teaching, and is reflected in the early fathers, whereas, the way you interpret it is not.

** That would be Acts 2:38 and I’ve already stated that the word ‘in’ does not mean to immerse into water.**

Let me offer another possibilty, the English language is not the inspired word of God. There are 3 different greek words that have been ambiguously translated into the English word ‘in’. In addition, the word baptizo does not mean to immerse into water. (scroll back within this thread, I provided the Greek lexicon for the word).

Ok, well, I guess we see it differently. Gosh darn, those three years of Greek in Seminary are failing me now!

One such irrefutable baptism of water would be the water baptism of Paul in Acts.

I would be happy to discuss this in detail. Provided that you be more specific as to the citation of this ‘water baptism’.

At least we are making progress on some front, and you are at least making an effort at exegesis, which is great. Now that you have stated that the Apostle Phillip, the Apostle Peter, and the Council of Jerusalem and Jesus Himself were all misguided with regard to water baptism, let us move on to the case of Paul.

 

[savedsinner]

Born Again in Baptism

One key Scripture reference to being “born again” or “regenerated” is John 3:5, where Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus here refers to baptism. “Born again” Christians claim the “water” is the preached word of God.

But the early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life—a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5).

No Church Father referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism.

Justin Martyr

“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus

“‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’” (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).

Tertullian

“[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’” (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).

Hippolytus

“The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism” (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 [A.D. 217]).

The Recognitions of Clement

“But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’” (The Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).

Testimonies Concerning the Jews

“That unless a man have been baptized and born again, he cannot attain unto the kingdom of God. In the Gospel according to John: ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5]. . . . Also in the same place: ‘Unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye shall not have life in you’ [John 6:53]. That it is of small account to be baptized and to receive the Eucharist, unless one profit by it both in deeds and works” (Testimonies Concerning the Jews 3:2:25–26 [A.D. 240]).

 

[savedsinner]

Cyprian of Carthage

“[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’” (Letters 71[72]:1 [A.D. 253]).

Council of Carthage VII

“And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ” (Seventh Carthage [A.D. 256]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

“Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, ‘Unless a man be born again,’ and he adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit,’ ‘he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it” (Catechetical Lectures 3:4 [A.D. 350]).

Athanasius

“[A]s we are all from earth and die in Adam, so being regenerated from above of water and Spirit, in the Christ we are all quickened” (Four Discourses Against the Arians 3:26[33] [A.D. 360]).

Basil the Great

“This then is what it means to be ‘born again of water and Spirit’: Just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit’s presence there” (The Holy Spirit 15:35 [A.D. 375]).

Ambrose of Milan

“Although we are baptized with water and the Spirit, the latter is much superior to the former, and is not therefore to be separated from the Father and the Son. There are, however, many who, because we are baptized with water and the Spirit, think that there is no difference in the offices of water and the Spirit, and therefore think that they do not differ in nature. Nor do they observe that we are buried in the element of water that we may rise again renewed by the Spirit. For in the water is the representation of death, in the Spirit is the pledge of life, that the body of sin may die through the water, which encloses the body as it were in a kind of tomb, that we, by the power of the Spirit, may be renewed from the death of sin, being born again in God” (The Holy Spirit 1:6[75–76] [A.D. 381]).

“The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ’s blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11–12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism.
. . . ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’” (Abraham 2:11:79–84 [A.D. 387]).

“You have read, therefore, that the three witnesses in baptism are one: water, blood, and the Spirit (1 John 5:8): And if you withdraw any one of these, the sacrament of baptism is not valid. For what is the water without the cross of Christ? A common element with no sacramental effect. Nor on the other hand is there any mystery of regeneration without water, for ‘unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God’” (The Mysteries 4:20 [A.D. 390]).

 

[savedsinner]

Gregory of Nyssa

“[In] the birth by water and the Spirit, [Jesus] himself led the way in this birth, drawing down upon the water, by his own baptism, the Holy Spirit; so that in all things he became the firstborn of those who are spiritually born again, and gave the name of brethren to those who partook in a birth like to his own by water and the Spirit” (Against Eunomius 2:8 [A.D. 382]).

John Chrysostom

“[N]o one can enter into the kingdom of heaven except he be regenerated through water and the Spirit, and he who does not eat the flesh of the Lord and drink his blood is excluded from eternal life, and if all these things are accomplished only by means of those holy hands, I mean the hands of the priest, how will any one, without these, be able to escape the fire of hell, or to win those crowns which are reserved for the victorious? These [priests] truly are they who are entrusted with the pangs of spiritual travail and the birth which comes through baptism: by their means we put on Christ, and are buried with the Son of God, and become members of that blessed head [the Mystical Body of Christ]” (The Priesthood 3:5–6 [A.D. 387]).

Gregory of Nazianz

“Such is the grace and power of baptism; not an overwhelming of the world as of old, but a purification of the sins of each individual, and a complete cleansing from all the bruises and stains of sin. And since we are double-made, I mean of body and soul, and the one part is visible, the other invisible, so the cleansing also is twofold, by water and the Spirit; the one received visibly in the body, the other concurring with it invisibly and apart from the body; the one typical, the other real and cleansing the depths” (Oration on Holy Baptism 7–8 [A.D. 388]).

The Apostolic Constitutions

“Be ye likewise contented with one baptism alone, that which is into the death of the Lord [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13]. . . . [H]e that out of contempt will not be baptized shall be condemned as an unbeliever and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says, ‘Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ And again, ‘He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned’” [Mark 16:16] (Apostolic Constitutions 6:3:15 [A.D. 400]).

Augustine

“It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.’ The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam” (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 412]).

“Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ—it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven,’ made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, ‘Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’” [Matt. 10:32] (The City of God 13:7 [A.D. 419]).

 

[anthony022071]

**I want to come back to Acts 10:47,48 for a moment.

In the original greek text, the verse reads,

No-any the water is-able to-forbid anyone of-the no to-be-baptized.

the word forbid is koluo - (ko-loo’-o) it is an infinitive. An infinitive is a verbal noun.

What Peter is saying is Forbid Water or Dam the Water. It has no value.

Are you crazy? Peter said no such thing. It is not translated that way. “Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” How is Peter forbidding water baptism by asking if it should be withheld? Considering that he had them baptized right after he had said this,he answered his own question**

Besides that, in verse 48 . . .

(Peter) ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

That word ‘in’ comes from the greek word ‘en’. En means with or by. It is an infinitive. An infinitive is a verbal noun; it means ‘to be’ something or to change the condition of something. It does not mean to immerse into water; which is a verb.

What other way would a Jew baptize another man than with water?

The greek word for name is ‘onoma’. Onoma means authority.

Peter is ordering the gentiles to be baptized with the authority of Jesus Christ, which is the Holy Spirit.

**
True. But the Holy Spirit was not given to the gentiles until Acts 2:38

Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

He did not tell the gentiles to be dipped in water.

Whether they were dipped in water or had water poured on them,water would have been used. That was the tradition. It was not necessary to mention it because it would have been taken for granted what baptism involved.**

John 1:33
this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’

Yes,it is for Jesus Christ to send the Holy Spirit. But men must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ,as Peter did.

 

[runandsew]

John 1:11-13
He came to what was his own, but his own people did not accept him. But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name, who were born not by natural generation nor by human choice nor by a man’s decision but of God.
Here St. John writes that Jesus gave ** “power” ** to those who believed in him to become children of God. We will see that this power is the Holy Spirit which we receive in “baptism”

John 2:23-25
While he was in Jerusalem for the feast of Passover, many began to believe in his name when they saw the signs he was doing. But Jesus would not trust himself to them because he knew them all, and did not need anyone to testify about human nature. He himself understood it well
Here St. John writes that people began to believe in Jesus because of the signs, but Jesus did not trust himself to them because they only believed with human knowledge, in other words, believing by itself is not enough. We need a **supernatural belief ** to become children of God
Jesus is going to explain how we receive this supernatural belief which is required when St. John introduces Nicodemus an example of how this is to be done.

John 3:1-5
Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicode’mus, a ruler of the Jews.This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.”
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicode’mus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you,** unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.**
Here John explains that we have to be baptized so we can receive that supernatural belief with supernatural power from the Holy Spirit that is required to become Children of God, and with that supernatural belief, Jesus will trust himself to us. We know that it is baptism with water and spirit that Jesus is speaking of because in Chapter 1 St. John speaks of both spirit and water.

John 1:32-33
John testified further, saying, "I saw the Spirit come down like a dove from the sky and remain upon him. I did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with **water **told me, 'On whomever you see the Spirit come down and remain, he is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit
And right after his conversation with Nicodemus, Jesus is Baptizing with his disciples, the only place that it is mentioned that Jesus was himself present with his disciples when they were baptizing.

John 3:22-23
After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptizing. John was also baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was an abundance of water there, and people came to be baptized,
Jesus is talking about one baptism, not two. One is baptized with water and the spirit. Though John came with a water baptism of repentance before Jesus, and the Apostles gave a baptism of the spirit. The apostles had to complete John’s baptism as we see in the book of Acts.
Jesus has combined the two into one baptism.
We see that there is only one baptism because St. Paul tells us so.

Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.

If the all these threads we have shown that there is one baptism, that it can remit sin, give us supernatual grace to become children of God, and that this is the position the Church has held from the very beginning.

Tabcom, why can’t you accept this.

You insist that we are wrong and the church fathers wrong.

Why do you assume that you are correct in your interpretation, and that we and the church fathers are all wrong?

 

[savedsinner]

**

Ok…before you argue case closed on water baptism…wait!

Later, meaning a period of time after the eunuch’s water baptism. the apostles and elders met in Jerusalem to make the decree outlining four things as to what the gentiles must do to be accepted within the Church (Acts 15:13-21).

Omitted from the list was water baptism.**

OK let’s look at what the Apostles and the elders are saying in this passage:

Acts 15:13-21
After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brethren, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, as it is written, `After this I will return, and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up, that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who has made these things known from of old.’ Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the pollutions of idols and from unchastity and from what is strangled and from blood. For from early generations Moses has had in every city those who preach him, for he is read every sabbath in the synagogues.”

These Gentiles have already been baptized, they are already practicing Christians.

What this decree is doing is helping the communities which have a mixed Gentile/Jew population to get along together, and to help the Jews not to be scandalized by the practices of the Gentiles after the Gentiles have already become Christians.

This is not a list of what the Gentiles need to do to become Christians, or be accepted within the church.
They are already in the church, and they are already Christians, but when they live in a community which contains both Jew’s and Gentiles, they need to refrain from these things so the Jew’s will not be scandalized.

 

[savedsinner]

**One more time . . .

In the original greek text, the verse reads,

No-any the water is-able to-forbid anyone of-the no to-be-baptized.

the word forbid is koluo - (ko-loo’-o) it is an infinitive. An infinitive is a verbal noun.

What Peter is saying is Forbid Water or Dam the Water. It has no value.**

OK, you can look up the original Greek, that is very impressive.

There is a reason why none of the English translations of the bible translate it that way though, and that is because it is not the meaning that St. Luke is trying pass on in this passage.

What Peter is saying here, is that we should not hold back the water of baptism from the Gentiles. Very plain and simple.

**KJV **- Act 10:47 -
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

NKJV - Act 10:47 -
“Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

NLT - Act 10:47 -
“Can anyone object to their being baptized, now that they have received the Holy Spirit just as we did?”

NIV - Act 10:47 -

“Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

ESV - Act 10:47 -

“Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

**NASB **- Act 10:47 -
“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we {did,} can he?”

RSV - Act 10:47 -
“Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

ASV - Act 10:47 -
Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?

**Young **- Act 10:47 -
Then answered Peter, `The water is any one able to forbid, that these may not be baptized, who the Holy Spirit did receive – even as also we?’

Darby - Act 10:47 -
Can any one forbid water that these should not be baptised, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also [did]?

**Webster **- Act 10:47 -
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?

HNV - Act 10:47 -
“Can any man forbid the water, that these who have received the Ruach HaKodesh as well as we should not be immersed?”

**NAB **- Act 10:47 -
“Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people, who have received the holy Spirit even as we have?”

Heck, even the Jehovah Witness don’t translate this passage that way!

New World Translation - Act 10:47 -
“Can anyone forbid water so that these might not be baptized who have received the holy spirit even as we have?”

 

[fellowChristian]

Jesus was anointed as the new King by John the Baptist who is from the line of Aaron and a priest. That is one of the reasons.
And there are three ways to be baptized. By water, blood, and by desire.

Baptism

**315. What is Baptism? **

Baptism is the sacrament that gives our souls the new life of sanctifying grace by which we become children of God and heirs of heaven.
Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

**316. What sins does Baptism take away? **

Baptism takes away original sin; and also actual sin and all the punishment due to them, if the person baptized be guilty of any actual sins and truly sorry for them.
Get up and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on his name. (Acts 22:16)

317. What are the effects of the character imprinted on the soul by Baptism?

The effects of the character imprinted on the soul by Baptism are that we become members of the Church, subject to its laws, and capable of receiving other sacraments.

**318. Who can administer Baptism? **

The priest is the usual minister of Baptism, but if there is danger that someone will die without Baptism, anyone else may and should baptize.

**319. How would you give Baptism? **

I would give Baptism by pouring ordinary water on the forehead of the person to be baptized, saying while pouring it: “I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”

**320. Why is Baptism necessary for the salvation of all men? **

Baptism is necessary for the salvation of all men because Christ has said: “Unless a man be born again of water and the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
Now they who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. (Acts 2:41)

321. How can those be saved who through no fault of their own have not received the sacrament of Baptism?

Those who through no fault of their own have not received the sacrament of Baptism can be saved through what is called baptism of blood or baptism of desire.

322. How does an unbaptized person receive the baptism of blood?

An unbaptized person receives the baptism of blood when he suffers martyrdom for the faith of Christ.
Greater love than this no one has, that one lay down his life for his friends. (John 15:13)

**323. How does an unbaptized person receive the baptism of desire? **

An unbaptized person receives the baptism of desire when he loves God above all things and desires to do all that is necessary for his salvation.
If anyone love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him. (John 14:23)

**324. When should children be baptized? **

Children should be baptized as soon as possible after birth.

**325. What sin do Catholic parents commit who put off for a long time, or entirely neglect, the Baptism of their children? **

Catholic parents who put off for a long time, or entirely neglect, the Baptism of their children, commit a mortal sin.

**326. What do we promise through our godparents in Baptism? **
We promise through our godparents in Baptism to renounce the devil and to live according to the teachings of Christ and of His Church.
**
327. Why is the name of a saint given in Baptism? **

The name of a saint is given in Baptism in order that the person baptized may imitate his virtues and have him for a protector.

**328. What is the duty of a godparent after Baptism? **

The duty of a godparent after Baptism is to see that the child is brought up a good Catholic, if this is not done by the parents.

**329. Who should be chosen as godparents for Baptism? **

Only Catholics who know their faith and live up to the duties of their religion should be chosen as godparents for Baptism.

More from the Catholic Church on Baptism
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm

 

[upciguy26]

I don’t like it either, but in fact they do exist. Jesus taught that we need to be baptized “in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”. Baptism that is done otherwise is not considered valid. Anyone who is not certain can seek direction from the church, which is clear on what type of baptism is valid.

I can be certain that God will keep His promises. God is not bound by baptism. It was given to us as the normative means by which people would become members of His body. However, He may add members to His body however He pleases!

The OP has rejected the teachings of the Church, and the sacramental life:

Originally Posted by believers
Let’s get this straight. I was a cradle Catholic and remained Catholic for 36 years and come from a long line of Catholics. I even attended CCD as a child. I also grew up with Catholics in a state divided into parishes. Please don’t tell me I don’t know Catholicism.

Christ’s church revealed the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to be that of Jesus Christ.

Paul was told to call on the name of the Lord while being baptized. The name Jesus has been left out of baptism and that name is so SACRED for there is none other name given under heaven among men whereby we must be saved! (Acts 4:12)