WAY beyond a "Folk Mass"

[SecretaryMonday]

That about sums it up!

Congratulations, you win 1 internet.

:yeah_me:

 

[agapewolf]

has to be pointed out yet again.

The mass isn’t JUST about calvary. It is also the resurrection. I’ll bet you there was joyful singing then.

Why is it called a “rock concert” when the the congregation was singing. The musicians were doing their job leading the singing, and not performing.

There some disingenuous accusations going on here.

 

[Kerry77]

I know you did not mean to “paint” anything extra into the description of the Mass, but even with the “jumps up on the altar” adds “flare” that may not have been the correct verb. (Or maybe the cantor did physically jump.) Sometimes we express ideas that we didn’t really intend. Then the reader sees something that those in the pew did not see. Then you get opinions on things that weren’t taking place.

You have a wonderful heart to seek the truth and understanding on what you saw as something different than you have experienced at Mass before.

It did seem to me like she “jumped” up…because I have never seen that before during that part of the Mass. In one split second, all of a sudden she was up there belting out the doxology with her hands up in the air trying to get the people to sing it too. So I did mean to convey that feeling that she “jumped” up there.

 

[Kerry77]

I don’t think he has his own style of Mass. For the record, Matt Maher records some beautiful songs. His Litany of the Saints is gorgeous. Truly worthy of heaven.

I haven’t heard his music directly, so I can’t comment on that. This rendition was neither gorgeous nor of Heaven.

But as I said, the church was overflowing and people were singing loud. So clearly it was drawing people in.

 

[Kerry77]

But “the very best” is subjective, given the place, the time and the people involved. Thank God our Church is big enough for everyone and their tastes. Its not one size fit all.

This topic comes up at CAF over and over again, same as what people wear to Mass, and we will never all agree on either issue.

I agree. This wasn’t my taste, but the church was overflowing, so clearly it was someone’s. It was so different from anything I have ever seen in my life…but maybe it is good that it is there for those who want that. I feel the same way about the TLM…glad it is there and being held more often around here, even though I don’t attend it.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

Yes, I do. The point is there should be reverence. Our Salvation was accomplished at Calvary.

Is that an insult to the Body of Christ? At, Calvary I don’t think I would be throwing up watching God die to save us. I would be weeping like Mary was.

Also, look down though the centuries. They had sacred music. Not noisy rock that belongs at a concert, and not Holy Mass. Rock would have been unheard of, mainly because it didn’t exist and even if it did, it wouldn’t have been used. It’s not worshiping God.

I’m sure you understand that God deserves the very best.

God bless.

While I understand not liking this type of music during mass, as I do not like it either, I do not understand why someone cannot worship God through rock style music. I enjoy some Christian rock and do not see a problem with it. Just because someone does not like it, does not mean that it is not a valuable tool of worship for some. Also, if it is done well, with a good message, and to the best of the person’s ability how is that not giving God the very best?

 

[jwinch2]

adoremus.org/1106MusicamSacram.html

adoremus.org/MusicamSacram.html

b16schola.org/what-are-the-propers/

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/

If you are supportive of this, you need to read these things.

 

[agapewolf]

This rendition was neither gorgeous nor of Heaven.

.

Merely an opinion.

I can give an objective musical evaluation that this composition and arrangement has objective elements of beauty, tension and resolution, and several elements that closely relate to more traditional hymns used in the church.

Or were just thrown off by the use of a guitar?

 

[WildCatholic]

Here is more on Matt Maher, he was the composer of two of the songs on the “Worship Aid”…turns out he is Catholic

Ok, so maybe it was a “Matt Maher” style Mass?

But even a matt maher style mass would be reverent. I went to a concert of his when he had adoration when he was up and coming on the CCM scene. It was still reverent. He played “down in adoration falling” which was beautiful, but still high energy in the sense that he was bowing down to the lord in adoration. So I think he knows when to be reverent and not

 

[Kerry77]

Merely an opinion.

I can give an objective musical evaluation that this composition and arrangement has objective elements of beauty, tension and resolution, and several elements that closely relate to more traditional hymns used in the church.

Or were just thrown off by the use of a guitar?

You can give an objective evaluation, but my observation is just an opinion. Ok.

 

[Kerry77]

But even a matt maher style mass would be reverent. I went to a concert of his when he had adoration when he was up and coming on the CCM scene. It was still reverent. He played “down in adoration falling” which was beautiful, but still high energy in the sense that he was bowing down to the lord in adoration. So I think he knows when to be reverent and not

I am not familiar with his work other than hearing it yesterday. But I have been to many folk masses, as I mentioned, that were reverent, even though the music was contemporary. This was far beyond anything I’ve seen and I would have a very hard time calling it reverent at all. But to pin it on Maher’s music isn’t fair, so I take that back if that is what it sounded like I said. I guess one could question if his music belongs at Mass in general, but there was more going on than just using his songs.

 

[agapewolf]

You can give an objective evaluation, but my observation is just an opinion. Ok.

Yes. There is a difference, and you didn’t seem to read the rest of the sentence.

There are 2 different statements made here:

I like Matt Maher
Matt Maher is a good musician.

Your statement, saying it wasn’t gorgeous, is subjective, hidden under the guise of an objective statement. There was no backing. It was merely that you “didn’t like it” but were stating it as an objective statement that its a universal truth. (which is an arrogant statement).

My evaluation consists of objective musical evaluation…using technical musical terms, explaining the chord structure, the release of tension that isn’t quite a complete release, as it still holds tension, yet is hugely different than pop music today with a normal cadence, and showing its similarity to older hymns. One is completely free to not like it… it not being their taste. But to state that THEIR taste is the standard for objective beauty is pretty short sighted.

Let me break it down a little more.

I personally LOVE Billy Joel.
I also can objectively evaluate his music as good, for what it is. Eclectic, some unpredictable chord progressions, largely influenced by classical music, etc

For ELton John, for me, personally, i don’t care for him so much.
I however, can also state that he has objectively good music (for what it is). I appreciate that has value, though its not my taste.

 

[Razanir]

1. I fail to understand why people dislike “Folk Masses.” Assuming I understand correctly what’s being referred to, I actually like them. My home parish typically has a piano, an acoustic guitar and a flute, and I think it sounds quite nice, reverent and beautiful.
2. That said, I still agree with everyone that the Mass from the OP is not so tasteful. Especially the part with everyone singing the end of the Eucharistic Prayer together (Is that even allowed? )
3. I rather like Christian rock, but I still wouldn’t want it as a Mass setting

 

[Kerry77]

This forum can be exhausting. And I am officially exhausted. I didn’t know I was entering a hardcore music theory discussion on the merits of Elton John and Billy Joel.

Thanks to all of you who discussed back and forth with me in a non-exhausting manner. This was actually really helpful, overall.

Have a great day everyone. Rock on, chant on, whatever floats your boat

 

[agapewolf]

This forum can be exhausting. And I am officially exhausted. I didn’t know I was entering a hardcore music theory discussion on the merits of Elton John and Billy Joel.

Thanks to all of you who discussed back and forth with me in a non-exhausting manner. This was actually really helpful, overall.

Have a great day everyone. Rock on, chant on, whatever floats your boat

1. You weren’t entering a discussion on the merits of Billy or Elton. I used them as an analogy, a means to explain the differences in our statements. So, you continue with exaggerations and ad hominems rather than address the point I ACTUALLY made?
2. I never EVER implied that the music at mass should be “whatever floats my boat”. I simply challenged your statement that YOUR taste does not equal what is objectively beautiful.

 

[opus101]

IMO, the type of experience you had at Mass was very unfortunate. Although those who were providing the music may have had a clear conscience, and were obviously encouraged (or at least permitted) to play the type of music that they did, nevertheless I’ve come to consider such things as sacrilege.

Really, this is a terrible abuse. Obviously the people involved have not been formed correctly. They may have had nothing but good intentions, but that does not excuse the pastor for allowing it, and it does not excuse him from forming himself in an ongoing way in the mind of the Church about things Liturgical.

We are exposed to this musical style all week long in our everyday secular lives (whether we want to be or not), only to come to Mass on Sunday (the holiest and most Sacred event that ever was, is or will be) and are exposed to the same secular and profane music styles there!

Liturgical music is supposed to be sacred in character (something that is “set aside” for liturgical purposes), and should be recognizable as such.

Quite frankly, I think that things such as you decribed are abominable. The Mass is not a rock concert or a musical Praise and “Worship” get together. It is hard to accept that some parish priests are so unschooled in liturgical matters that they could allow it. Or maybe they actually do know that it goes against the mind and teachings of the Church, and do it anyway as an act of disobedience. Either way, they are remiss in their duties. Bigtime.

 

[Melchior_1]

Music within the Church and Her liturgies has evolved over the centuries, although several folks tend to be selective when look at the history and instead focus on a few statements. On the surface, look no further than kettle drums, which were banned at one point, then the ban was lifted. To this day someone should be able to walk into a church with a kettle drum and use it, and none of you should say a word of complaint.

That’s also not to mention that several folks who on hand hand complain about contemporary instruments on one hand, but on the flip side embrace hymns created by Protestants and Requiem Masses written by a Mason (“oh, he was only in it for the social standing!” people say. Yet if someone less famous or who did less popular music used that reasoning, they would be torn down). There has always been outside influences contributing music to the Catholic faith.

Finally, as North Americans, I posit the following; the cultural clause as it pertains to instruments actually applies to us in the same fashion as it does South America and Africa, in the sense that we are no longer Euro-Catholic. The USA, for example, fought a war to sever all ties to Europe and gain independence. By all accounts everyone in the States is happy to have an authentic American identity. Yet when it comes to the Catholic faith, there are several who want to hold onto Euro-Catholicism, in some cases it’s extreme enough to ignore the 20+ other different rites and the practices that some Orders have had.

Like it or not, the type of instruments done at Mass is a discipline. It does not invalidate a Mass, nor does it even render a Mass illicit. If it was sacrilege then groups like Life Teen and the University of Steubinville would have received reprimands and told to stop. The former got told to stop an abuse involving teens going around the altar, which they stopped immediately after being told to. The latter has been told to keep on keeping on, with nary a word mentioned. Both places are good standing.

You may have a preference for Gregorian chant, just as I have a preference plain chant. You may want an organ, someone else may want a classical guitar. Please don’t pass off your preference as immutable doctrine, especially in light that yes, music has changed over time within the Church.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

Music within the Church and Her liturgies has evolved over the centuries, although several folks tend to be selective when look at the history and instead focus on a few statements. On the surface, look no further than kettle drums, which were banned at one point, then the ban was lifted. To this day someone should be able to walk into a church with a kettle drum and use it, and none of you should say a word of complaint.

That’s also not to mention that several folks who on hand hand complain about contemporary instruments on one hand, but on the flip side embrace hymns created by Protestants and Requiem Masses written by a Mason (“oh, he was only in it for the social standing!” people say. Yet if someone less famous or who did less popular music used that reasoning, they would be torn down). There has always been outside influences contributing music to the Catholic faith.

Finally, as North Americans, I posit the following; the cultural clause as it pertains to instruments actually applies to us in the same fashion as it does South America and Africa, in the sense that we are no longer Euro-Catholic. The USA, for example, fought a war to sever all ties to Europe and gain independence. By all accounts everyone in the States is happy to have an authentic American identity. Yet when it comes to the Catholic faith, there are several who want to hold onto Euro-Catholicism, in some cases it’s extreme enough to ignore the 20+ other different rites and the practices that some Orders have had.

Like it or not, the type of instruments done at Mass is a discipline. It does not invalidate a Mass, nor does it even render a Mass illicit. If it was sacrilege then groups like Life Teen and the University of Steubinville would have received reprimands and told to stop. The former got told to stop an abuse involving teens going around the altar, which they stopped immediately after being told to. The latter has been told to keep on keeping on, with nary a word mentioned. Both places are good standing.

You may have a preference for Gregorian chant, just as I have a preference plain chant. You may want an organ, someone else may want a classical guitar. Please don’t pass off your preference as immutable doctrine, especially in light that yes, music has changed over time within the Church.

 

[jwinch2]

Please don’t pass off your preference as immutable doctrine, especially in light that yes, music has changed over time within the Church.

They are not immutable doctrine, of that it is certain, but it is hardly a free for all either, where our own personal preferences and self contrived traditions reign supreme. The documents of Vatican II address this fairly clearly as do several others sources. There is a hierarchy within the Church, and there are preferences which have been established in regards to the type of music to be used in the Sacred Liturgy, as well as the instrumentation which goes with it.

A learned perspective on the situation: vimeo.com/25776981

 

[Melchior_1]

They are not immutable doctrine, of that it is certain, but it is hardly a free for all either, where our own personal preferences and self contrived traditions reign supreme. The documents of Vatican II address this fairly clearly as do several others sources. There is a hierarchy within the Church, and there are preferences which have been established in regards to the type of music to be used in the Sacred Liturgy, as well as the instrumentation which goes with it.

There are documents that say “pride and place”, which no one will dispute. What’s on the table is that in addition to the more “classical” music, there are other forms of instruments and styles which could be permitted. The question is what is profane and the term “secular”. The question I also bring to the table is that America’s culture is no longer Euro-centric, so why be bound by Euro-Culture?

A harp is allowed, but a guitar isn’t? A bass is allowed, provided it’s not electric and the bass needs to be twice the size of someone? Kettle drums are allowed, but other forms of percussion are not?

The hierarchy you mentioned could have stepped at any moment, and they have chosen not to at this time. That also says something about the situation.

I know you aren’t like this Jason, but I do want to mention one thing. I wonder is if some folks would be willing to throw people out of the church building simply due to what they’re wearing and/or what instrument they’re playing. The talk about kids wearing inappropriate clothes bothers me because it sounds as if people are willing to exclude and marginalize just because of their clothes. Would you lecture a child over their clothes? You don’t know where they are at, like if they brought themselves to Mass that day for the first time in years. Or that years of poor religious education in the schools have told them that this is fine - telling them “dress better!” might not wash. Some of these kids would ordinarily not even go to Mass, this might be their second or third time coming. How about we don’t

It extends past the kids too. You never know if that guy playing drums while wearing pants with a hole in them is unemployed and homeless, while still teaching kids about things like this.

Don’t base opinions off what is seen and what is heard, maybe form opinions from the heart and bring things to Christ.