We are rational because of our brains, not our souls

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davidv said:
Consciousness does not define what is alive vs. what is not
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I think that there is a huge difference between something which is conscious and what is not in term of stimuli and response. I agree with you about the fact that we have different forms of lives.
 
Bahman said:
I think we are talking about different forms of life. They are not same.
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Agreed. Yet, you argued that fetuses in the womb were not alive.

You based this argument on ‘consciousness’, which seems to be where you went off the rails:
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Bahman:
The story starts from one egg and one sperm. That is not something we can call human. I have no idea when they become conscious so they can respond to stimuli.
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“One egg and one sperm” is not human. The zygote – that is, the fertilized egg – is human, although in early stages of development.

You are defining “stimulus response” as something that only conscious beings perform. Yet, we’ve given you multiple examples of responses to stimuli that do not occur in the context of consciousness. Perhaps it’s time to give up the conflation of “stimulus response” with “conscious response”… 😉
 
Vico said:
It is not necessary for the reproductive system to be functional for an organism to be alive, and you know this, because you know that there are living eunuchs. Humans possess the reproductive systems (which is sufficient) and this is in the DNA. Fetuses do respond to stimuli.
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I think fetus is in vegetation state until they turn into conscious being. So we are talking about different forms of lives.
 
Gorgias said:
Agreed. Yet, you argued that fetuses in the womb were not alive.

You based this argument on ‘consciousness’, which seems to be where you went off the rails:

“One egg and one sperm” is not human. The zygote – that is, the fertilized egg – is human, although in early stages of development.

You are defining “stimulus response” as something that only conscious beings perform. Yet, we’ve given you multiple examples of responses to stimuli that do not occur in the context of consciousness. Perhaps it’s time to give up the conflation of “stimulus response” with “conscious response”… 😉
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I have no idea how plants can response to a stimuli when they are not conscious. Perhaps it is just mechanical.
 
A fetus is in a different stage of development, not a different form of life.
 
sudy said:
A fetus is in a different stage of development, not a different form of life.
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But they are not conscious in early state and they become conscious in later stage. So they probably become conscious at a given period. Hence they have different forms of lives.
 
There are countless passages about God forming us from the womb and knowing us. The brain is matter and you’ll have a tough job figuring out how matter has consciousness… it has baffled scientists for generations. When a body or brain dies… it decays. The soul lives on.
 
Bahman said:
I think fetus is in vegetation state until they turn into conscious being. So we are talking about different forms of lives.
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The soul and body each are incomplete without each other and the body cannot exist without a soul, but the rational soul replaces both the vegetative soul (as in plants) and the sensitive soul (as in animals), and has will and intelligence.
 
Bahman said:
I have no idea how plants can response to a stimuli when they are not conscious. Perhaps it is just mechanical.
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Still, even if it’s ‘mechanical’, it’s a response of a living being. That’s what’s being discussed, after all – what’s ‘living’ and what’s not.

If your assertions here hold up to scrutiny, then that means that you have no unconscious responses to stimuli? You don’t cough when you breathe in dust? Your neurons don’t fire when stimulated? These are all examples of unconscious responses to stimuli that only living beings experience.
 
Bahman said:
But they are not conscious in early state and they become conscious in later stage. So they probably become conscious at a given period. Hence they have different forms of lives.
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A biologist you are not Bahman.

You need to stick to the no soul rhetoric, and move away from subjects that you are not versed in.
 
Every time I see posts like this (ones that start with an assertion instead of a question) I do a face-palm. It makes me think the folks that post them aren’t here to learn anything, but to troll.:mad:
 
sudy said:
There are countless passages about God forming us from the womb and knowing us. The brain is matter and you’ll have a tough job figuring out how matter has consciousness… it has baffled scientists for generations. When a body or brain dies… it decays. The soul lives on.
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You have the same difficulty to express how consciousness is possible in presence of soul. You can say that is a properties of soul but that doesn’t enlighten us and leave us with a box where we cannot see inside. Simply ignorance.
 
Bahman said:
You have the same difficulty to express how consciousness is possible in presence of soul. You can say that is a properties of soul but that doesn’t enlighten us and leave us with a box where we cannot see inside. Simply ignorance.
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You.are mistaken as.to me, with God all things are possible. I don’t feel any need to be able to express or even understand all the mysteries of God. To those with faith, no explanation is necessary, to those without, no explanation is possible.
 
Vico said:
The soul and body each are incomplete without each other and the body cannot exist without a soul, but the rational soul replaces both the vegetative soul (as in plants) and the sensitive soul (as in animals), and has will and intelligence.
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I was talking about fetus. Plants have no nerves system and brain hence they cannot possibly be intelligence. Animals are somewhere between human and plants.
 
Gorgias said:
Still, even if it’s ‘mechanical’, it’s a response of a living being. That’s what’s being discussed, after all – what’s ‘living’ and what’s not.
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As I mentioned I have no idea how plants can response to stimuli without a brain and nerves system. Do you?
Gorgias said:
If your assertions here hold up to scrutiny, then that means that you have no unconscious responses to stimuli? You don’t cough when you breathe in dust? Your neurons don’t fire when stimulated? These are all examples of unconscious responses to stimuli that only living beings experience.
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I accept the fact that we could have unconscious response.
 
sudy said:
You.are mistaken as.to me, with God all things are possible. I don’t feel any need to be able to express or even understand all the mysteries of God.
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Why do you bother to discuss when you don’t have any need to understand anything including the mysteries of God. We at least try. What is the use of intellectuality otherwise?
sudy said:
To those with faith, no explanation is necessary, to those without, no explanation is possible.
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Of course a explanation is necessary because we are intellectual being otherwise we are blind followers.
 
Bahman said:
Why do you bother to discuss when you don’t have any need to understand anything including the mysteries of God. We at least try. What is the use of intellectuality otherwise?

Of course a explanation is necessary because we are intellectual being otherwise we are blind followers.
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My reason for entering this discussion in the first place was because I happened to look in and saw that you were doubting the fact that a fetus is alive, or that a fetus was even the same form of life as a human being… This was very wrong whichever way you choose to look at it. It is known that a fetus reacts to touch at around 8 weeks and to pain at around 20 weeks. Just because a fetus isn’t seen to respond before this time means nothing. Before 8 weeks all the organs are still forming. It is alive and growing from the very beginning… from the fertilised egg.

In science you can’t get something out of nothing, whether energy or matter. In my belief, God is the creator. As I mentioned previously, there are several passages in the bible stating that before God formed us in the womb, he knew us. How is this even possible if there was no one for God to know?

As to being a blind follower of God… this really isn’t the case at all. Your only ‘evidence’ for suggesting this is because I don’t feel the need to understand every single aspect or mystery of God. I know for a fact that you don’t understand every aspect or mystery of God either btw. And, I honestly don’t believe we’re meant to understand every aspect of God either.

This passage speaks volumes to me, suggesting that I’m not meant to know everything, including this very subject:
Ecclesiastes 11:5
As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones are joined together in the womb of her that is with child: so thou knowest not the works of God, who is the maker of all.
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Anyway, good luck in your quest for the truth… if, indeed, that is what your quest is! Reading other people’s comments, it seems that I’m not the only person here to doubt your intentions.
 
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