We are rational because of our brains, not our souls

[seagal]

You have the same difficulty to express how consciousness is possible in presence of soul. You can say that is a properties of soul but that doesn’t enlighten us and leave us with a box where we cannot see inside. Simply ignorance.

Scientists don’t know why or how our consciousness works either. At least with a soul there’s a real explanation. God infuses us with souls and that is what makes us conscious beings.

 

[Bahman]

My reason for entering this discussion in the first place was because I happened to look in and saw that you were doubting the fact that a fetus is alive, or that a fetus was even the same form of life as a human being… This was very wrong whichever way you choose to look at it. It is known that a fetus reacts to touch at around 8 weeks and to pain at around 20 weeks. Just because a fetus isn’t seen to respond before this time means nothing. Before 8 weeks all the organs are still forming. It is alive and growing from the very beginning… from the fertilised egg.

You accept the fact that fetus react to touches around 8 weeks and to pain around 20 weeks. So they undergo chances. They might become conscious later. We simply don’t know.

In science you can’t get something out of nothing, whether energy or matter. In my belief, God is the creator. As I mentioned previously, there are several passages in the bible stating that before God formed us in the womb, he knew us. How is this even possible if there was no one for God to know?

That is not true. In science things can pop up out of nothing as a result of quantum fluctuation.

As to being a blind follower of God… this really isn’t the case at all. Your only ‘evidence’ for suggesting this is because I don’t feel the need to understand every single aspect or mystery of God. I know for a fact that you don’t understand every aspect or mystery of God either btw. And, I honestly don’t believe we’re meant to understand every aspect of God either.

So what is the purpose for an intellectual beings? To be happy with God in heaven. Is that really a good purpose for an intellectual being?

Anyway, good luck in your quest for the truth… if, indeed, that is what your quest is! Reading other people’s comments, it seems that I’m not the only person here to doubt your intentions.

I wish a good spiritual journey for you too.

 

[Bahman]

Scientists don’t know why or how our consciousness works either. At least with a soul there’s a real explanation. God infuses us with souls and that is what makes us conscious beings.

That is not an explanation. It is simply what do you accepted as truth. You don’t know what is happening inside this black box so called soul.

 

[sudy]

You accept the fact that fetus react to touches around 8 weeks and to pain around 20 weeks. So they undergo chances. They might become conscious later. We simply don’t know.

Or earlier Awareness and responsiveness are not the same thing. Either way, I agree we don’t know. Human beings always undergo changes… compare a newborn to a child, or to an old man, and notice the differences.

That is not true. In science things can pop up out of nothing as a result of quantum fluctuation.

Quantum theory is still in the theoretical stage of physics so you should be challenging the quantum fluctuation argument just as much as you’re questioning the soul-consciousness connection.

So what is the purpose for an intellectual beings? To be happy with God in heaven. Is that really a good purpose for an intellectual being?

I really don’t know sometimes I suppose it’s to show us how far above us God really is.

I wish a good spiritual journey for you too.

I’m sorry for the parting shot in my last post… felt a little sickened at being called ignorant and a blind follower. I really do hope you find the answers you’re seeking best of luck to you!

 

[DCNBILL]

So what is your opinion on subject matter?

I believe and have experienced rational thought and observation of my surroundings while not being in my body, the only proof I have of this is one witness however. Having experienced that I can only say that I do believe that the soul is the rational “part” of our bodies.

 

[Gorgias]

As I mentioned I have no idea how plants can response to stimuli without a brain and nerves system. Do you?

Keep researching; there’s a wealth of information out there for you.

Nevertheless, the question was only one of ‘life’ and how response to external stimuli is a hallmark of life. We have demonstrated that this is so, and therefore, it’s reasonable to assert that human fetuses are alive.

I accept the fact that we could have unconscious response.

Fine, but that isn’t what’s in play. What’s being debated is ‘life’, and biologists define life in a way that seems to be in contrast with what you’ve written…

 

[Vico]

I was talking about fetus. Plants have no nerves system and brain hence they cannot possibly be intelligence. Animals are somewhere between human and plants.

In humans, the rational soul provides the functions of the sensitive and vegetative souls in addition.

 

[Bahman]

In humans, the rational soul provides the functions of the sensitive and vegetative souls in addition.

That is the duties of our Brain not rational soul.

 

[Bahman]

Keep researching; there’s a wealth of information out there for you.

Nevertheless, the question was only one of ‘life’ and how response to external stimuli is a hallmark of life. We have demonstrated that this is so, and therefore, it’s reasonable to assert that human fetuses are alive.

I agree that human fetus is alive. My point however was that they have different form of lives especially when the become conscious.

Fine, but that isn’t what’s in play. What’s being debated is ‘life’, and biologists define life in a way that seems to be in contrast with what you’ve written…

I believe in different form of lives.

 

[Vico]

That is the duties of our Brain not rational soul.

You can see how St. Thomas Aquinas presented it in the following, from the Summa Theologica, Question 78. The specific powers of the soul:

I answer that, There are five genera of powers of the soul, as above numbered. Of these, three are called souls, and four are called modes of living. The reason of this diversity lies in the various souls being distinguished accordingly as the operation of the soul transcends the operation of the corporeal nature in various ways; for the whole corporeal nature is subject to the soul, and is related to it as its matter and instrument. There exists, therefore, an operation of the soul which so far exceeds the corporeal nature that it is not even performed by any corporeal organ; and such is the operation of the “rational soul.” Below this, there is another operation of the soul, which is indeed performed through a corporeal organ, but not through a corporeal quality, and this is the operation of the “sensitive soul”; for though hot and cold, wet and dry, and other such corporeal qualities are required for the work of the senses, yet they are not required in such a way that the operation of the senses takes place by virtue of such qualities; but only for the proper disposition of the organ. The lowest of the operations of the soul is that which is performed by a corporeal organ, and by virtue of a corporeal quality. Yet this transcends the operation of the corporeal nature; because the movements of bodies are caused by an extrinsic principle, while these operations are from an intrinsic principle; for this is common to all the operations of the soul; since every animate thing, in some way, moves itself. Such is the operation of the “vegetative soul”; for digestion, and what follows, is caused instrumentally by the action of heat, as the Philosopher says (De Anima ii, 4).

 

[DCNBILL]

I agree that human fetus is alive. My point however was that they have different form of lives especially when the become conscious.

I believe in different form of lives.

Could you list these different forms of lives and their essential characteristics so that we have a basis for conversation with you regarding what is living or not living or what degree of living we are talking about at any particular time?

 

[Bahman]

Could you list these different forms of lives and their essential characteristics so that we have a basis for conversation with you regarding what is living or not living or what degree of living we are talking about at any particular time?

I can divide the form of lives to two categories. First are vegetation beings which they have power to grow and reproduce (when they are mature). Second being animal/human which have brain and and nerves system including their bodies. They can experience things and react consciously. They can also reproduce and grow.

 

[seagal]

I can divide the form of lives to two categories. First are vegetation beings which they have power to grow and reproduce (when they are mature). Second being animal/human which have brain and and nerves system including their bodies. They can experience things and react consciously. They can also reproduce and grow.

Shouldn’t animals and humans be separate because humans are capable of rational thought and animals aren’t?

 

[Bahman]

Shouldn’t animals and humans be separate because humans are capable of rational thought and animals aren’t?

We just have more complex brains. Complexity of brains does even exist in animals. So we simply have a hierarchy.

 

[DCNBILL]

I can divide the form of lives to two categories. First are vegetation beings which they have power to grow and reproduce (when they are mature). Second being animal/human which have brain and and nerves system including their bodies. They can experience things and react consciously. They can also reproduce and grow.

In what you have posted here you are stating that you not alive when you are asleep.

 

[Bahman]

In what you have posted here you are stating that you not alive when you are asleep.

I don’t understand how your comment is related to mine.

 

[DCNBILL]

I don’t understand how your comment is related to mine.

Then you are either not paying attention or are not being honest, I will leave it to you to decide.

 

[Bahman]

Then you are either not paying attention or are not being honest, I will leave it to you to decide.

I think that is a misunderstanding. I believe that we are in state of unconsciousness if we don’t have any dreaming. Dreaming is state of mind that you are conscious of your dream but not what is happening around you.

 

[Gorgias]

I can divide the form of lives to two categories. First are vegetation beings which they have power to grow and reproduce (when they are mature). Second being animal/human which have brain and and nerves system including their bodies. They can experience things and react consciously. They can also reproduce and grow.

Aquinas – due to the mistaken science of his day – believed something similar; these days, we know he was wrong.

The belief back then was very similar to what you’ve proposed: he believed that, at conception, the fetus was akin to a plant in a garden. Only when the baby “quickened” did it obtain the characteristics of a human person. Clearly, we know much more about developmental biology these days: there’s no such thing as a “vegetation being” as opposed to an “animal” or “human” being. Even your contention about the ability to “grow” as an indicator of “humanity” seems quite odd in this context – fetuses are actively growing (and often at surprising rates!) – from the moment of conception through birth!

 

[Bahman]

Aquinas – due to the mistaken science of his day – believed something similar; these days, we know he was wrong.

The belief back then was very similar to what you’ve proposed: he believed that, at conception, the fetus was akin to a plant in a garden. Only when the baby “quickened” did it obtain the characteristics of a human person. Clearly, we know much more about developmental biology these days: there’s no such thing as a “vegetation being” as opposed to an “animal” or “human” being. Even your contention about the ability to “grow” as an indicator of “humanity” seems quite odd in this context – fetuses are actively growing (and often at surprising rates!) – from the moment of conception through birth!

I believe that we are in state of vegetation in early stage our lives. We later become gradually conscious of our environment in later state of our lives. I have no idea when and how this transformation happen?