We ARE saved by Works.

[Robert902]

In the end is faith not a work? This is the true flaw in Sola Fide. Faith is as much an act as any work.

Where does our faith come from? Even that is a gift from God. Gal 5:22-23. Faith means faithfulness, and if you are a child of God you will be faithfull. One of the fruits of the Spirit is faith. It is provided for you. Salvation truly is a free gift (void of works) from our Lord.
Paul makes it very clear in Romans 7:18 that the new nature has no power to produce the fruit of the Spirit.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[NotWorthy]

In the end is faith not a work?

That’s why Paul calls in the “Obedience of Faith” in Romans ch. 2.

 

[NotWorthy]

All of the Bible verses that are used by individuals in an “attempt” to prove that salvation can be revoked, or lost, are used in the wrong context. Almost all of the verses they use, are talking about non-believers who never had salvation in the first place.

As in Jesus talking to the Apostles during the Last Supper?
[quotePay attention to the context, and you will never find God talking about one of His own losing their inheritance, or salvation. Phill. 1:6 “being confident of this, That He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
[/quote]Robert this is getting tiresome. The Prodigal Son was an heir of the inheritance. That means He is a Child of God. He squandered it.

Eph 1:14 “Who is the [GUARANTEE] of our salvation until the redemption of the purchased possession to the praise of His glory.”

My book says installment. The seal of the Holy Spirit is the first installment of our inheritance.

John 10:28"-29. "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fathers hand.

Who gives a gift, and then takes it away?

Correct. But we can squander it, Robert. Show where I’m wrong in my quotes.

 

[SyCarl]

Paul also said:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Faith is not a work. It is the gift of God.

 

[guanophore]

Are protestants Christians?

I am certain that most of them are, however, that is an issue for another thread!

“For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age…” this is one of my favorite verses, and said it so succintly!

I hope its okay to post… I only just joined… but how wonderful to wallow in subjects such as " grace" and “salvation!”

Welcome to the forum, maryrev. Of COURSE it is ok to post!

Many Catholics here seem to think that Protestant theology is from the “pit of Hell”. Jesus told Nicodemus that “you must be born again” to inherit everlasting life. So according to Jesus, if you are born again, you are one of His children, and yes a Christian.

God Bless,
Robert

One can find theology from the “pit” everywhere. Protestant, Catholic, Muslim…it is everywhere. That is why we need a magesterium!

Are you saying that if I don’t keep God’s commandments that I can lose my salvation?

Actually, it was Jesus who said that. He taught that to His apostles, and they passed it on to us.

Rom 2:13
13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified."

Matt 5:18-19
19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;"

Matt 19:17
“If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

The implication is that if one does not keep the commandments, one will not enter life.

John 14:15

15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”

1 Cor 7:19
19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God."

1 John 2:2-6
3 And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."

1 John 3:24
24 All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us."

Rev 14:12

12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."

Deut 12:28
28 Be careful to heed all these words which I command you, that it may go well with you and with your children after you for ever, when you do what is good and right in the sight of the LORD your God."

Mic 6:8
8 He has showed you, O man, what is good;
and what does the LORD require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God? "

Titus 2:7
7 Show yourself in all respects a model of good deeds,

I thought that’s why Christ had to die on the cross…because I’m a sinner and can’t keep His commandments. I though that believers weren’t judged for their sins?

God Bless,
Robert

Matt 12:36-37
36 I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

You are quite right, Robert. Christ died so that we would not die in our sins. Without His salvation, we are incapable of keeping His commandments. Jesus sent His Spirit so that we will be able to keep His commandments:

Ezek 36:27-28
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances."

We cannot do it without the saving grace poured out through His blood shed on the cross.

 

[NotWorthy]

Paul also said:

Faith is not a work. It is the gift of God.

Neither is our Salvation an event, it is a process.

Faith gets us saved, but it is our obedience of faith working through love that keeps that Salvation.

 

[DiscernVoc]

Where does our faith come from? Even that is a gift from God. Gal 5:22-23. Faith means faithfulness, and if you are a child of God you will be faithfull. One of the fruits of the Spirit is faith. It is provided for you. Salvation truly is a free gift (void of works) from our Lord.
Paul makes it very clear in Romans 7:18 that the new nature has no power to produce the fruit of the Spirit.

God Bless,
Robert

When Paul is talking about “fruits of the Spirit” he is talking about gifts that Christians have by having the Spirit in us. These gifts are not present unless we accept Christ’s invitation of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, faith in this context is faith that is received by living as a Christian. If a Christian said no to Christ’s grace at some point of their life they would lose these gifts. This is evident as we see someone grow away from the Church. They start to lose these virtues as they gain more secular vices. Actually faith should be looked at as something that grows as we grow closer to God.

 

[Robert902]

You are taking it out of context. Nowhere does it say that this comes into effect before our judgement. In fact, it says the opposite. See Catholic Answers website. These verses especially : Phil 2:12, 2 Tim 4:7-8, 1 Cor 9:27.

2 Tim 4:6-8. “I have kept the faith”. Life had been a trust from God, and he had been a good steward. He had kept the faith. If he had the faith to keep, it must have come from some place? He kept, what he had been give by the Spirit.

Phil. 2:12 “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
Phil 2:13 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Verse 13 makes it clear that it is God who does the work in us.
"
1 Cor 9:27. “But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.”
Paul is thinking of the Judgement Seat of Christ where the rewards are given. In the Second Epistle to the Corinthians he will talk about the fact that we shall appear before the Judgement Seat of Christ where awards are given. Paul says that he is in a race trying to run so that he will get a reward.
Every Christian should work for a reward. We do not work for our salvation; that is a gift given by the grace of God.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[guanophore]

If God chose us “before the foundation of time”, how is it possible to reject Him? If you were chosen before the foundation of time, you can not, and will not reject Him! In other words, if you reject Him, you were not one of those whom God chose before the foundation of time.
I don’t know why this is so difficult. There’s a guarantee that comes with your salvation…it can’t be taken away from you. It’s a gift.

God Bless,
Robert

This is just an incomplete teaching of the truth to which you have been subjected, Robert. Most likely through no fault of your own.

1 Tim 2:3-5
God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

God wants all to be saved. Some people do not WANT to be saved. God created human beings with free will. He wants us to love Him out of choice, and desire to be with Him. Therefore, to those who choose otherwise, He respects their choice. Your double predestination doctrine is difficult because it rejects the teachings of creation, that God created man with the ability to choose.

Deut 30:19
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life…"

Why would God tell us we have a choice, if we reallly don’t?

You are right, though, no one can take salvation away. One can throw it away. No one will snatch the saved from His hand, but they can bite that hand, and jump out of it.

 

[Robert902]

Robert this is getting tiresome. The Prodigal Son was an heir of the inheritance. That means He is a Child of God. He squandered it.
My book says installment. The seal of the Holy Spirit is the first installment of our inheritance.
Correct. But we can squander it, Robert. Show where I’m wrong in my quotes.

What did the prodigal son squander? Salvation, or his rewards?

God Bless,
Robert

 

[dessert]

In the end is faith not a work? This is the true flaw in Sola Fide. Faith is as much an act as any work. I was debating a Protestant recently who as usual didn’t understand Catholic theology. They were insistant on works based salvation taking away from God. What most Protestants fail to realize is that that act of faith is an act. It is a way of them earning God’s grace. They fail to realize that this act of faith is a work. In Catholicism, we realize through scripture and tradition, that salvation is through grace freely given. It is completely given from Christ. We merely put ourselves in the position of receiving this gift. This is impossible when we say no to God. This is accomplished through our actions and our state of being. Works, including faith, are nothing more than are acceptance of God’s grace and simply us saying yes to God. The sacraments are the highest form of works. They are the traditional and scripturally derived specific language in which we say yes to God. I would go so far as to say a Catholic who doesn’t take part in the sacraments is saying no to God. A protestant on the other hand has the ability to say yes to God, but lacks the perfect way to say yes.

Do you think that Catholics that are fallen away and not doing any works are saved?

If they are not receiving any sacraments, can they still be doing works?

Are they still receiving grace and even if they have not commited a mortal sin?

I ask not to judge them but to be able to see where they are if they ask.

dessert

 

[pinoyjones]

I strongly agree with Manny about grace alone that we are saved. If we initially look at the beatitudes, these would be impossible to live. But by the grace from God we are able to live them to the fullest.

 

[NotWorthy]

What did the prodigal son squander? Salvation, or his rewards?

God Bless,
Robert

His inheritance. We gain our inheritance when we are saved. Our inheritance is the free gift of Eternal Life.

That boy was in nothing that can be construed as heaven with no extra rewards. He left the promised land, Robert and lived among the unclean. That is not a heavenly context in the parable.

 

[Robert902]

You are quite right, Robert. Christ died so that we would not die in our sins. Without His salvation, we are incapable of keeping His commandments. Jesus sent His Spirit so that we will be able to keep His commandments:

Ezek 36:27-28
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances."

We cannot do it without the saving grace poured out through His blood shed on the cross.

Are you able to keep the commandments? I can’t. Romans 3:20 seems to indicate that no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin.
If you could keep the commandments, which no one can, you wouldn’t need a savior.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[NotWorthy]

Edited, Robert I answered post 252 in 256.

Robert, let me post two points that urge us not to sin.

Jesus tells us if our hand causes us to sin, cut it off. Why? Because it’s better to go without a hand then to burn in the fires of Gehenna (paraphrasing). This is not loss of rewards, this is loss of salvation.

Paul in Romans 3:7, Paul preaches against telling lies in order to bring other to Christ:

But if God’s truth redounds to his glory through my falsehood, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?

Paul is talking of being condemned as a sinner, not losing rewards in heaven.

 

[guanophore]

Saved by works alone? I thought we were saved by our belief in Jesus Christ. The Bible clearly states “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Indeed there is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved!

I see people that go to mass because they “have to”, not because they want. They have an obligation. They go in late and leave 1/2 hour before the mass is over. What value is that? I’m sure that is not what God has in mind.

I see these people too. I just saw a whole family do that yesterday. It is very sad. I am certain that is not what God has in mind!

Katholicos, I’m not judging. I’m just stunned that they all leave so early. And they aren’t just walking out to their cars, they are walking quite rapidly.

Yes! I think they are afraid to sit for a minute with Christ, for fear of what He might say!

 

[dessert]

When Paul is talking about “fruits of the Spirit” he is talking about gifts that Christians have by having the Spirit in us. These gifts are not present unless we accept Christ’s invitation of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, faith in this context is faith that is received by living as a Christian. If a Christian said no to Christ’s grace at some point of their life they would lose these gifts. This is evident as we see someone grow away from the Church. They start to lose these virtues as they gain more secular vices. Actually faith should be looked at as something that grows as we grow closer to God.

When a Catholic person is strong in faith their light is strong but when they go away from the Church their light dies out to a flicker even smaller. As they get closer to the secular things it replaces the light but is the light the Holy Spirit or is it their virtue of their Faith itself the light?
Does that mean that the gift of Faith is diminishing?
If so how? dessert

 

[NotWorthy]

Are you able to keep the commandments? I can’t.

Am I able to keep the commandment. Some times I fall. I used to fall a lot and I used to fall hard. Now, I fall lightly and not nearly as often. I am working towards the words of Jesus, “Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”. I continue to strive for that, for Jesus wishes me to be perfect, and I love Him enough to try to please Him.

He doesn’t want me to sin, I try not to sin. There will come a day, God Willing, when I will be able to keep His Commandments without failure. Only by His Grace and by constantly working to get there.

Romans 3:20 seems to indicate that no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin.
If you could keep the commandments, which no one can, you wouldn’t need a savior.

Oh, I beg to differ. Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous observing the Law. That means they kept the commandments. They still needed a savior, right? That’s because the Law doesn’t wash away Original Sin, like Baptism does thanks to His dying on the Cross.

Now that I’ve accomplished that, and with the Sacrament of Penance (confession), I can strive to live righteously and have some confidence that I will get to heaven.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Since he (or his bot) is not here to defend himself, I’ll just add that he was writing the ordinary evangelical doctrine of salvation, not some weird ideas of some prophet.

Discussing the topic of faith and works (which occurs here every, oh, three days or so) triggers all kinds of instant misinterpretations and knee-jerk rejections. I wish that each side could understand the other’s point.

There’s no danger of that. Theology is mostly male posturing anyway; which is probably why most women have better things to do than get involved. Why else would women apologists be so scarce ? They leave that sort of silliness to the men - & very wisely too.​

Discussions prove only that the more skilful debater is the winner - the worth of the cases made is irrelevant. A really Christian life is a far better argument than any nonsense about theology or doctrine. If God had deemed debating or that sort of stuff worthwhile, He would not have raised up St. Paul to preach Christ Crucified. Besides, contending over this & that only kills love - but debating encourages a spirit of contention. Children (whom we are supposed to be like) don’t contend over doctrines - so why do we ?

 

[guanophore]

KatholikosMercy, after being around catholics all my life, I was always amazed when they talked about how long the mass was or how long was the sermon. I’ve seen people looking at their watches, sighing loud, filing their nails.

When I said “had to go” earlier, I was thinking back to when I was six years old, going on seven. Mom said that pretty soon I’d have to go to church every Sunday. I said “what if I don’t want to go?” Her reply was “oh, you’ll have to!” No explanation, nothing. I learned in the schools though, why. No problem with that, there were some times when I was attending mass that I felt some kind of holiness. I have a sister that almost lost her very premature baby years ago. She went to the parish pastor and asked for some kind of consideration or comfort. What did he say to her? “If he dies, he dies, what do you want from me?”

Compassion for one thing, buster. That was the last time she went to a catholic church. When my only brother was killed, I went to my pastor. He looked at me as if I stepped off a space ship. His words? “What do you want from me? I never knew your brother!”

That was MY last time.

I am sorry and sad that you were failed by the shepherds. I suggest you put this post on the thread “why I left the Catholic Church”.