"We Believe" or "I Believe"

[diggerdomer]

Yes, there is. Ever since Creeds were first used (going back to Apostolic times) they’ve used the singular “I believe.” In the 1960s ICEL decided to change that and mis-translate the Latin into English as “We believe.” The new translation of the Mass (not yet official in the US) will correct this and use “I believe.”

Yes, it is distracting and disrupting, and people should not be doing this (it’s one thing to do it unawares, such as if a person is from an Eastern Church where they never changed), but people should not be trying to change the words used at Mass on their own. Even if the change itself is correct, they should not be doing it, most especially the way you’ve described of “shouting.”

I thought the original Conciliar creeds–being a product of a Council i.e. a group of bishops–used “we”?

And, the early Councils that developed our current N-C Creed of course were using Greek, not Latin.

If you have a source for the original Greek wording of the Creed from those first Councils that show they used “I” and not “We” I would be grateful; I’ve been looking for it for a while now and have yet to find it.

 

[japhy]

The Nicene-Constant(name removed by moderator)olitan Creed was in the first person plural because it was being pronounced by all the bishops together, yes, but the adoption of the Creed in the liturgy (in the Roman Rite, at least) was first person singular.

 

[pnewton]

I chose my user name because of the Apostles Creed

That is what I thought.

Or is it, that is what we thought?

 

[Deacon_Ed]

As was correctly noted above, the original symbolum or Creed from Nicea used the first person plural (“We believe”, pisteuomen) because it was a statement of the bishops united in faith. When ICEL rendered the current translation they used the Greek as the basis for he translation and rendered the English as “We believe in in God…”. The Latin is and, as far as I can discern, has always been singular (Credo in unam Deum…"). With the focus on accuracy of the translation from Latin we will be moving back to the singular. One of the arguments for this is that the bishops in Council agreed on what they believed after much discussion. At Mass we can only state what each of us, as an individual, believes and brings to the community.

Deacon Ed

 

[zab]

Yes, there is. Ever since Creeds were first used (going back to Apostolic times) they’ve used the singular “I believe.” In the 1960s ICEL decided to change that and mis-translate the Latin into English as “We believe.” The new translation of the Mass (not yet official in the US) will correct this and use “I believe.”

Yes, it is distracting and disrupting, and people should not be doing this (it’s one thing to do it unawares, such as if a person is from an Eastern Church where they never changed), but people should not be trying to change the words used at Mass on their own. Even if the change itself is correct, they should not be doing it, most especially the way you’ve described of "shouting."

They should wait until the new translation is promulgated. Until then, as inaccurate as the present translation is in some places, they should say that one. (Or say it in Latin, which is certainly licit, but in an unobtrusive manner.)

Thank you all for your responses which helped me to learn that the correct translation is “I”, not “We”. And I have also learned some good explantions for the use of “We”. I will refrain from judgement on what version should be prayed. I’d rather leave that to the authorities.

Part of my original post had to do with the distraction and disruption caused by at least one person, even if he recited the correct translation.

I am inclined to believe FrDavid96 and japhy whose posts I have quoted above. They were the only ones who addressed this particular problem.

 

[I_Believe]

That is what I thought.

Or is it, that is what we thought?

kinda like who’s on first ?

 

[diggerdomer]

At Mass we can only state what each of us, as an individual, believes and brings to the community.

Deacon Ed

Ooohh…I have a problem with that statement (I don’t mean to read it out of context). Liturgy is, by definition and its nature, public i.e. communal. It’s not about a group of individuals who happen to come together and do their own individual thing. It’s a public act. WE pray. WE offer. WE praise. Listen to the prayers of the Mass, they are for the majority in the first person plural not singular. Let US pray.

So…in that light…WE believe would be entirely harmonious with liturgical prayer.

 

[mystified]

As has been pointed out, in Latin, Credo (I believe) is first person singular. In the “olden days” the priest would intone this word, then the choir and/or the congregation would join in the rest.
I usually attend Mass in Spanish, where the translation was much easier and nobody has a problem with Creo en solo un Dios (I believe in one God), which is first person singular. Being a “seasoned citizen”, I sometimes find myself slipping in and out of Latin throughout the Mass.
Let’s pray the new English translations are better, and more reverent, than those we have presently.
Pax vobiscum.

 

[markeverett49]

Just recently I heard - and I’m really sorry I can’t remember where, but I do believe it was EWTN - that saying “I believe” is correct because we can only speak for ourselves.

This is problematic. It is true that as an individual, I can only speak for myself, but as a Catholic, there is nothing wrong with telling my Protestant relatives, “WE honor Mary; WE do not worship her.” Or to put it another way, when John Paul II promulgated the CCC, he didn’t introduce it to the world as his faith but as our Catholic faith.

If you are being tortured for your faith–being told to recant or else—then your (singular) faith is at issue. But if you are teaching adolescents what is wrong with contraception, you should NOT present the material as your idea.

I prefer “Credo” (I believe) to “Credemus” (We believe), though I wish more American Catholics held a higher view of the shared faith and a humbler view of their own (personal) improvements upon it.

 

[peregrinus_sg]

That moment of the Liturgy is our response to the word of God heard in the Scriptures and preached in the homily. Thus the Roman liturgy, and many other (though not all) Eastern liturgies use the singular form “I believe” because each of us profess the faith, like in baptism.

However, the communion of faith is not absent. Each of us, though many, proclaim the same Creed and the same truths of the Apostolic faith. This is because the Creed is not something we cobble together on our own, but received from the Church. Thus in saying “I believe” the faith of the Church is also heard and made present. I think Liturgiam authenticam describes this as the voice of the Church, professing her one faith as the one Bride of Christ.

That’s why it is important to say the Creed exactly as the Church gives us. Until the new English translation of the Missal is promulgated, we should use the form that is presently approved, even if it is poorly translated. To say otherwise breaks the unity of the faith, and disobedience is always displeasing to the Lord.

 

[Tamsulosin]

Since we are talking about the Creed and the different translations,in English it reads"He descended to the dead" In al least one other language translation it reads: “He descended to Hell.”
I do not understand why it would say that,Jesus being a holy Man/God would descend to Hell, even if temporarily. The English translation is more vague, just saying “descended to the dead”.
Maybe I should have started a different thread,but it is related to changes in translation of the Creed.Also for me to say either" I" believe, or" we" believe I think I should understand what I am expressing, or I would not be saying the truth, affirming those beliefs.
Help me understand that statement so that I can say I believe in it.(or “we” believe)
thanks

I apologize for the slight turn in theme:blush:
Tam

 

[japhy]

“He descended to Hell.”
I do not understand why it would say that, Jesus being a holy Man/God would descend to Hell, even if temporarily. The English translation is more vague, just saying “descended to the dead”.

Jesus descended to Sheol, the abode of the dead. The word “Hell” is not used to mean the Hell of the damned, but “Hades” or “the lower regions”.
descéndit ad ínferos, tértia die resurréxit a mórtuis…

(5) he descended into hell; <Rom. 10:7; Eph. 4:9-10; 1 Pet. 3:18-19>
on the third day <Luke 24:46; Acts 10:40; 1 Cor. 15:4>
he rose again from the dead; <Rom 4:25-26; 1 Thess. 4:14; 1 Pet. 1:12>

The Latin word inferos (translated as “hell”) is not the Hell of the damned, but rather the abode of the souls of the dead, known in Hebrew as Sheol. The human soul of Christ, united to his divine Person, was in this “hell” while his human body (also united to his divine Person) lay in the tomb. (cf. Catechism 630) On the third day, his body and soul were reunited by the power of his divinity, rising anew (“again”), to a new glorified life.

(From: Praying the Mass: The Prayers of the People, pp. 63-64)

 

[Tamsulosin]

I am grateful for your help Japhy.

Tam

 

[FrDavid96]

Since we are talking about the Creed and the different translations,in English it reads"He descended to the dead" In al least one other language translation it reads: “He descended to Hell.”
I do not understand why it would say that,Jesus being a holy Man/God would descend to Hell, even if temporarily. The English translation is more vague, just saying “descended to the dead”.
Maybe I should have started a different thread,but it is related to changes in translation of the Creed.Also for me to say either" I" believe, or" we" believe I think I should understand what I am expressing, or I would not be saying the truth, affirming those beliefs.
Help me understand that statement so that I can say I believe in it.(or “we” believe)
thanks

I apologize for the slight turn in theme:blush:
Tam

This thread might help you:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=324053

 

[Tamsulosin]

Thanks to you also for the clarification, FrDavid96.
Tam

 

[alacoque]

From what I’ve learned, I understand the “I believe” predates. The person who commented on the ICEL bringing the “we” into things is right. However, the “I” is not (was not, originally) a statement of any kind of personal, individualistic belief, but rather the profession of the Church, the Body of Christ. And so, the statement “I” (since the Church and the Body of Christ are/is ONE). It was a misunderstanding of this great mystery and profound statement that ended up w/the ICEL going with “we”. They thought we were all speaking for ourselves when we said “I”, rather than the reality that we were speaking as ONE BODY.

I find the same problem (re ICEL) with other parts of their translation of the creed…to me (and the original Latin), there’s a very distinct difference between “seen and unseen” (ICEL) and “visible and invisible” (original). Not all things that are unseen are invisible! Also, one (unseen) implies an action of the person (focus on ‘us’ again - yawn) while the other (invisible) implies the nature of the thing - and the nature of things is given to them by God. (focus on God’s creation). Changing the focus from God’s creation to OUR perception (seen or unseen) of His creation is par for the ICEL/modernist course.

Anyway, re the “I believe” - it’s what I say and how I pray it. It’s the original, it’s the correct translation of the Latin and it’s NOT individual – it’s the one Church, the one Body of Christ speaking.

 

[zab]

Anyway, re the “I believe” - it’s what I say and how I pray it. It’s the original, it’s the correct translation of the Latin and it’s NOT individual – it’s the one Church, the one Body of Christ speaking.

And it is how one says it that can be very distractive and disruptive during Mass.

 

[alacoque]

And it is how one says it that can be very distractive and disruptive during Mass.

That all depends on the ‘how’ of it. I’m certain I don’t disrupt anyone; I’m a verrrry quiet person at some points in my prayer…specifically for the reason you state. I don’t want to offend or disturb anyone and it’s never my intent to be a malcontent…

humility in all things
thanks for your comments

 

[LUKBAN]

Does it make any difference if we say “I believe or we believe” in the eyes of God? I think praying the Nicene Creed with we or I doesn’t make the way to heaven wider or smoother. God look at our heart and not our mouth. The “we” probably was used because of St. Matthew’s idea of community worship or to say St. Matthew"s christian community. I don’t know if it really matters to pray the creed in the first person plural or singular. In my parish some parishioners say the"we" and some say the" I" and doesn’t bother anybody. I never realized there’s a grammar school in heaven. I want to know the rationale of praying the creed in the first person singular. Please educate me.

 

[japhy]

In my parish some parishioners say the"we" and some say the" I" and doesn’t bother anybody.

It might seem minor when parishioners say a prayer their own way at Mass… but eventually that can seep into other prayers and other things. (Like how some people refuse to say “He” instead of “God”.)

I want to know the rationale of praying the creed in the first person singular.

Because the Latin word in the Creed is credo which means “I believe”, and the translation should be faithful to the Latin.