We Catholics Are Dead Sure The Church Is The One Church Of Christ And That All Others Are Mistaken

[gcnuss]

Furthermore, Protestants are brought up with the idea that it is not possible for any human being to locate the True Church. So they continue in religious matters to wander where they will, like people in a forest, who follow any line of tracks without bothering to ask where it leads. And they love the risky adventure of experimenting for themselves that they search Scripture for every possible text which they think will support them…go figure…

OTCA,

I’m coming late to this thread, but I am concerned about the way in which you seem to see all who fall under the Protestant umbrella as being identical in what you consider to be their failure to look for guidance outside of themselves and their own understanding of Scripture.

As a Lutheran pastor, I do not believe that I am wandering in a forest without guidance. My Christian faith is grounded in Scripture, expressed in the three ecumenical creeds, enlightened by the writings of theologians ancient and modern, and, I hope, always open to greater understanding of God and his will for us. I also believe that many others – Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, etc., are likewise open to sound theology, including some Catholic (and catholic) theology as well.

 

[Augie1530]

yes, once we have came to know the Lord Jesus, the fruits of the spirit will follow.

"Once we have “CAME” to know… I hope you recognise this as an error in grammar . ONCE WE HAVE COME TO KNOW is correct

 

[theistgal]

If I were convinced that you represented Catholicism, I could happily forget about Catholicism (at least about its claims to truth).

Dear Contarini,

I so totally understand how you feel and appreciate your courage in saying this!

Thank God there are more people who are humble about their beliefs and want to share them rather than bash people over the head with them.

 

[dougfreed]

WOW!!!
You Really Believe This?

I can reply that they do not only seem to be so, but that they are actually dead sure. What would be the use of any bureau for the dispensing of authentic information, if the officials had to warn inquirers that there was not even certainty as to whether they had gone to the right inquiry office! No. The True church which is really Christ’s own bureau for the dispensing of authentic information to mankind in His Name, must be visibly discernible as His. The invisible and undiscernible Church theory is impossible, and as I have just said, opposed to the Will of Christ.
Furthermore, Protestants are brought up with the idea that it is not possible for any human being to locate the True Church. So they continue in religious matters to wander where they will, like people in a forest, who follow any line of tracks without bothering to ask where it leads. And they love the risky adventure of experimenting for themselves that they search Scripture for every possible text which they think will support them…go figure…

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

WOW!!!
You Really Believe This?

Yup!

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

OTCA,

I’m coming late to this thread, but I am concerned about the way in which you seem to see all who fall under the Protestant umbrella as being identical in what you consider to be their failure to look for guidance outside of themselves and their own understanding of Scripture.

As a Lutheran pastor, I do not believe that I am wandering in a forest without guidance. My Christian faith is grounded in Scripture, expressed in the three ecumenical creeds, enlightened by the writings of theologians ancient and modern, and, I hope, always open to greater understanding of God and his will for us. I also believe that many others – Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, etc., are likewise open to sound theology, including some Catholic (and catholic) theology as well.

As a Lutheran, your “religion” is founded by Martin Luther, is it not? And if you say it is not, please tell me when and how it was founded.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Thankyou Spirit. I was not coming back but a few e-mails convinced me. I don’t know were the Lord is leading me. I have tryed to heal from some horrer stories I have had dealing with some Catholics. My mother was Catholic(God rest her soul) and I have a cousin who is a Catholic priest in the Roman rite on my mothers side. What he did to my dad,family, and me at my mom’s funeral was unforgivable. I have healed from it, but people like “One apos cat” brings it all back. I don’t know if I agree with all the Churches teachings, especially on Moral Theology. I have questions and just wanted to ask them with out being attacked or told what I believe. People might be surprise by my back ground, but I don’t think I need to reveal it to the public. I do enjoy your post, I do learn things from people of all Faiths and I enjoy that.I just can’t stand real arrogant people. They need to learn that they will catch more flies with honey than viniger.

I am sorry that you had such a bad experience. I don’t presume to know what is right for you, and I wish you well on your journey. I am sure that with prayer and study, you will find the place that is right for you. God will lead, it just is hard to hear him sometimes over all the noise!

 

[Harpazo]

**I can reply that they do not only seem to be so, but that they are actually dead sure. What would be the use of any bureau for the dispensing of authentic information, if the officials had to warn inquirers that there was not even certainty as to whether they had gone to the right inquiry office! No. The True church which is really Christ’s own bureau for the dispensing of authentic information to mankind in His Name, must be visibly discernible as His. The invisible and undiscernible Church theory is impossible, and as I have just said, opposed to the Will of Christ.
**

Christ is risen!

Hmm, the Orthodox are dead sure that they are the Great Church of Christ and all others are mistaken. Funny that.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[JonNC]

As a Lutheran, your “religion” is founded by Martin Luther, is it not? And if you say it is not, please tell me when and how it was founded.

Not speaking for Pastor Gary, but as a Lutheran… wait, one must understand what a Lutheran is. A Lutheran is a Catholic of the Augsburg Confession, or an evangelical Catholic. Our “religion” was founded on the suffering, death, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That religion is called Christianity.
We are Christians, just like you, and you and I are in communion (albeit imperfect) with each other, through our Baptisms. You catechism says so, and I agree.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=Harpazo;5230061]Christ is risen!

He is risen, indeed! Alleluia!

Hmm, the Orthodox are dead sure that they are the Great Church of Christ and all others are mistaken. Funny that.

Indeed they do.

Jon

 

[gcnuss]

As a Lutheran, your “religion” is founded by Martin Luther, is it not? And if you say it is not, please tell me when and how it was founded.

My religion is Christian and I am a Christian, a member of the church founded by Jesus Christ. Being a Lutheran does not remove me from that church, although I am aware that some within the Catholic Church would refer to me as being among the “separated brethren.” Martin Luther was not the founder of Christianity so your statement that he founded my religion is inaccurate.

Jon answered you better upstream.

 

[Louie1983]

Not speaking for Pastor Gary, but as a Lutheran… wait, one must understand what a Lutheran is. A Lutheran is a Catholic of the Augsburg Confession, or an evangelical Catholic. Our “religion” was founded on the suffering, death, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That religion is called Christianity.
We are Christians, just like you, and you and I are in communion (albeit imperfect) with each other, through our Baptisms. You catechism says so, and I agree.

Jon

Hi JonNC,

Interesting points you make, you say that a Lutheran is a Catholic of the Augsburg confession or an evangelical Catholic. You cannot be a Catholic if you do not accept the Pope as the leader of the church militant, or you do not accept ALL the teachings of the Catholic church as true, full-stop. There was no other Church (and no other teachings for that matter) for 1500 years until the reformation, the reformation saw groups break from the apostolic succession of the church therefore they broke with God’s true church.

I agree Catholics and Non- Catholics have certain connections (as stated in the catechism) and this is beautifull However you state correctly that we are connected imperfectly. The Church does teach that there is no salvation outside the church, If you study what the Church has said on this, you will see the nearly 2,000-year tradition on this teaching. It was only after the Second Vatican Council where liberal theologians began to challenge the age-old teaching of no salvation outside the Church.

God bless.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Hi JonNC,

Interesting points you make, you say that a Lutheran is a Catholic of the Augsburg confession or an evangelical Catholic. You cannot be a Catholic if you do not accept the Pope as the leader of the church militant, or you do not accept ALL the teachings of the Catholic church as true, full-stop. There was no other Church (and no other teachings for that matter) for 1500 years until the reformation, the reformation saw groups break from the apostolic succession of the church therefore they broke with God’s true church.

I agree Catholics and Non- Catholics have certain connections (as stated in the catechism) and this is beautifull However you state correctly that we are connected imperfectly. The Church does teach that there is no salvation outside the church, If you study what the Church has said on this, you will see the nearly 2,000-year tradition on this teaching. It was only after the Second Vatican Council where liberal theologians began to challenge the age-old teaching of no salvation outside the Church.

God bless.

My thoughts exactly…

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

My religion is Christian and I am a Christian, a member of the church founded by Jesus Christ. Being a Lutheran does not remove me from that church, although I am aware that some within the Catholic Church would refer to me as being among the “separated brethren.” Martin Luther was not the founder of Christianity so your statement that he founded my religion is inaccurate.

Jon answered you better upstream.

Please show me in the bible how Jesus established the “Lutheran” church. Martin
Luther was not the founder of Christianity, but a Reformer of the One True church which was established by Christ. Please show me where it says Lutheran’s were around 2,000 years ago.

 

[gcnuss]

Please show me in the bible how Jesus established the “Lutheran” church. Martin Luther was not the founder of Christianity, but a Reformer of the One True church which was established by Christ. Please show me where it says Lutheran’s were around 2,000 years ago.

I am not saying that Lutherans, as our part of the Christian family is known, were around and known by that name 2000 years ago. What I am saying is that, first and foremost, we are Christians and Christians have been around for nearly 2000 years. And I have never said, and I will never say, that Martin Luther is the founder of Christianity. Those words have not come from my mouth (or my keyboard) and they never will.

Where do I get the idea that I am Christian? I have been baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Even the Catholic Church recognizes that baptism as valid and that it makes me a Christian. I am a Christian in a tradition that confesses the Apostles’, Nicene, and Athanasian creeds as true statements of our beliefs about the Triune God.

How is it that I am Lutheran? I happens that I am the spiritual (and biological) descendant of Christians who left the Catholic Church for a variety of reasons. They may have been thrown out, ala Luther; they may have been subsumed into the national churches that were established to replace the Catholic Church, i.e., the state churches of Norway and Sweden; or, they may simply have found their faith in Christ strengthened and encouraged in non-Catholic churches.

To steal a phrase from your thread title, I’m “dead sure” that our Lord has not abandoned me because I’m a Lutheran and that when we Lutherans gather together his promise “where two or three are gathered in my name, I will be there,” does not go unfulfilled.

God’s blessings to you as you continue as a vociferous apologist for the Catholic Church.

 

[JonNC]

=Louie1983;5230337]Hi JonNC,

Interesting points you make, you say that a Lutheran is a Catholic of the Augsburg confession or an evangelical Catholic. You cannot be a Catholic if you do not accept the Pope as the leader of the church militant, or you do not accept ALL the teachings of the Catholic church as true, full-stop.

I accept the Bishop of Rome as one of the leaders of the church Militant, and the patriarch of the west. And accepting goes both ways, to which, since Vatican II, there’s been a whole lot more work in that direction, thank God.

There was no other Church (and no other teachings for that matter) for 1500 years until the reformation, the reformation saw groups break from the apostolic succession of the church therefore they broke with God’s true church./

The Orthodox certainly have different teachings.

I agree Catholics and Non- Catholics have certain connections (as stated in the catechism) and this is beautifull However you state correctly that we are connected imperfectly. The Church does teach that there is no salvation outside the church, If you study what the Church has said on this, you will see the nearly 2,000-year tradition on this teaching. It was only after the Second Vatican Council where liberal theologians began to challenge the age-old teaching of no salvation outside the Church.

So, are you saying that you disagree with your Catechism when it says that the charge of separation cannot be applied to those of us born into non-catholic Christian traditions?

Jon

 

[Louie1983]

I accept the Bishop of Rome as one of the leaders of the church Militant, and the patriarch of the west. And accepting goes both ways, to which, since Vatican II, there’s been a whole lot more work in that direction, thank God.

**Hang on a sec, yes it’s good that the church has done work in regards to being more accepting towards other denominations but that accepting only goes as far as accepting your ight to believe in your faith. The church has never and will never teach that other (apart from the orthodox) denominations are are the same as the Catholic chruch’s. **
The Orthodox certainly have different teachings.

**Yex they do, but they are a different story all together. There is far more in common between the catholic church and the orthodox church then there is with lutherans. The orthodox can show apostolic succession and have not changed any of their teachings either. **
So, are you saying that you disagree with your Catechism when it says that the charge of separation cannot be applied to those of us born into non-catholic Christian traditions?

**No i’m not disagreeing at all. you have to understand why the church says this, the church teaches that we are to be baptised in order to enter into his kingdom. The difference between catholics and lutherans is that you have been baptised but have not yet come into the fullness of the truth of god’s church. The church may recognise oher baptisms in the hope (and out of love) that they can be brought into the fullness of the truth that is the catholic church. **

 

[Louie1983]

I am not saying that Lutherans, as our part of the Christian family is known, were around and known by that name 2000 years ago. What I am saying is that, first and foremost, we are Christians and Christians have been around for nearly 2000 years. And I have never said, and I will never say, that Martin Luther is the founder of Christianity. Those words have not come from my mouth (or my keyboard) and they never will.

I** acknowledge that you have stated that you do not believe that martin luther was the founder of christianity. However, you say that christians have been around for 2000 years which is correct, but please note that the christianity or “your part of the christian family” that you practise was not aound 2000 years ago. the only “christianity” that was around up until the reformation was catholicism, then dissident groups broke off and started their own churches, beliefe. So to say that christians have been around for 2000 years is in essence correct but it’s important to remember which was the first and original church**.

Where do I get the idea that I am Christian? I have been baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Even the Catholic Church recognizes that baptism as valid and that it makes me a Christian. I am a Christian in a tradition that confesses the Apostles’, Nicene, and Athanasian creeds as true statements of our beliefs about the Triune God.

And god bless you for your fiath and love for god! You have been baptised into christianity but that doesn’t mean that you have been brought into his fullness in truth yet! Yes you are baptised but the catholic church teaches that the fullness of truth and salvation can only be found in the catholic church! The church will recognise other baptisms in the hope the graces poured on the soul when baptised will lead them to truth!
How is it that I am Lutheran? I happens that I am the spiritual (and biological) descendant of Christians who left the Catholic Church for a variety of reasons. They may have been thrown out, ala Luther; they may have been subsumed into the national churches that were established to replace the Catholic Church, i.e., the state churches of Norway and Sweden; or, they may simply have found their faith in Christ strengthened and encouraged in non-Catholic churches.

Thrown out, left or forced to leave really doesn’t matter (although it is a sad thought ). There can only be one true church and thet is the church that jesus promised he would never leave whe he breathed on the apostles and said “receive the holy spirit”.
To steal a phrase from your thread title, I’m “dead sure” that our Lord has not abandoned me because I’m a Lutheran and that when we Lutherans gather together his promise “where two or three are gathered in my name, I will be there,” does not go unfulfilled.

This does not go unfulfilled in a catholic church either, because jesus is truly present in the eucharist! He has kept his promise.

God’s blessings to you as you continue as a vociferous apologist for the Catholic Church.

This was not directed at me but i never will pass up an opportunity to say god bless you to another person, no matter there faith.

 

[gcnuss]

I acknowledge that you have stated that you do not believe that martin luther was the founder of christianity. However, you say that christians have been around for 2000 years which is correct, but please note that the christianity or “your part of the christian family” that you practise was not aound 2000 years ago. the only “christianity” that was around up until the reformation was catholicism, then dissident groups broke off and started their own churches, beliefe. So to say that christians have been around for 2000 years is in essence correct but it’s important to remember which was the first and original church.

Don’t forget the Orthodox.

 

[racing59]

The Catholic Church should be all inclusive of all faiths.These same old arguments get to me because Jesus was for all the world.If you believe the Catholic Church is right and others are wrong, so be it.But I think the point you are trying to make can be a little gentler. My wife and I were married in the Lurthern Church. I know in my heart our marriage was blessed by God.We Christians should not be wasting so much energy on splitting hairs or saying who is right and who is wrong. Just maybe if we look at the beauty in each others Church we would convert alot more people. Just my two cents.