We Catholics Are Dead Sure The Church Is The One Church Of Christ And That All Others Are Mistaken

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racing59 said:
The Catholic Church should be all inclusive of all faiths.These same old arguments get to me because Jesus was for all the world.If you believe the Catholic Church is right and others are wrong, so be it.But I think the point you are trying to make can be a little gentler. My wife and I were married in the Lurthern Church. I know in my heart our marriage was blessed by God.We Christians should not be wasting so much energy on splitting hairs or saying who is right and who is wrong. Just maybe if we look at the beauty in each others Church we would convert alot more people. Just my two cents.😉
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Hi Racing59,

I’m in no way trying to degenerate you, your faith or anything of the sort. I’m simply defending my faith as God commands us to. God bless you for your faith and thoughts, i welcome them and enjoy the dialogue.

You say the Catholic faith should be inclusive of all faiths, this is truly a beautifull and admirable thought but let’s face reality here. The church cannot include every other faith (theologically anyway) because the church is there to maintain and defend Christ and the faith as was his command and in the manner which he wanted his church to.

I have absolutely no problems with working with other christians as i consider them my brothers and sisters. You say the message should be a bit gentler, i don’t try to force my faith/opinion on you i just make sure you understand what the Catholic teaching is on certain topics. I apologise if i come across as aggressive, i don’t mean to, i write all my posts with the respect and love that every person derserves.
 
gcnuss said:
I am not saying that Lutherans, as our part of the Christian family is known, were around and known by that name 2000 years ago. What I am saying is that, first and foremost, we are Christians and Christians have been around for nearly 2000 years. And I have never said, and I will never say, that Martin Luther is the founder of Christianity. Those words have not come from my mouth (or my keyboard) and they never will.

Where do I get the idea that I am Christian? I have been baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Even the Catholic Church recognizes that baptism as valid and that it makes me a Christian. I am a Christian in a tradition that confesses the Apostles’, Nicene, and Athanasian creeds as true statements of our beliefs about the Triune God.

How is it that I am Lutheran? I happens that I am the spiritual (and biological) descendant of Christians who left the Catholic Church for a variety of reasons. They may have been thrown out, ala Luther; they may have been subsumed into the national churches that were established to replace the Catholic Church, i.e., the state churches of Norway and Sweden; or, they may simply have found their faith in Christ strengthened and encouraged in non-Catholic churches.

To steal a phrase from your thread title, I’m “dead sure” that our Lord has not abandoned me because I’m a Lutheran and that when we Lutherans gather together his promise “where two or three are gathered in my name, I will be there,” does not go unfulfilled.

God’s blessings to you as you continue as a vociferous apologist for the Catholic Church.
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Gary, you ever notice OTCA will accuse you of being from a different “religion”, but they won’t go so far as to say you aren’t Christian, which is exactly what saying you are of a different “religion” implies? No matter what, you will be wrong on ALL points. It’s like arguing with a brick wall.
 
Catholics believe that theirs is the one true Church of Jesus Christ, firstly, because theirs is the only Christian Church that goes back in history to the time of Christ; secondly, because theirs is the only Christian Church which possesses the invincible unity, the intrinsic holiness, the continual universality and the indisputable apostolicity which Christ said would distinguish His true Church; and thirdly, because the Apostles and primitive Church Fathers, who certainly were members of Christ’s true Church, all professed membership in the same Catholic Church (See Apostles’ Creed and the Primitive Christian letters). Wrote Ignatius of Antioch, illustrious Church Father of the first century: “Where the bishop is, there let the multitude of believers be, even as where Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church.” Our Lord said: “There shall be one fold and one shepherd, yet it is well know that the various Christian denominations cannot agree on what Christ actually taught. Since Christ roundly condemned inter-denominationalism, that house cannot stand.” (Mark 3:25), Catholics cannot believe that He would even sanction it in His Church.
 
Louie1983 said:
Hi Racing59,

I’m in no way trying to degenerate you, your faith or anything of the sort. I’m simply defending my faith as God commands us to. God bless you for your faith and thoughts, i welcome them and enjoy the dialogue.

You say the Catholic faith should be inclusive of all faiths, this is truly a beautifull and admirable thought but let’s face reality here. The church cannot include every other faith (theologically anyway) because the church is there to maintain and defend Christ and the faith as was his command and in the manner which he wanted his church to.

I have absolutely no problems with working with other christians as i consider them my brothers and sisters. You say the message should be a bit gentler, i don’t try to force my faith/opinion on you i just make sure you understand what the Catholic teaching is on certain topics. I apologise if i come across as aggressive, i don’t mean to, i write all my posts with the respect and love that every person derserves.
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The Catholic Church is beautiful Church. You have a right to defend your faith when being attacked.My post was more for the Op that “all others are mistaken”. I feel this is to strong in coming across to non Catholic.I feel if one believes in Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior then how is that a mistake? The title is too strong, thats were I’m coming from.😉
 
gcnuss said:
I am not saying that Lutherans, as our part of the Christian family is known, were around and known by that name 2000 years ago. What I am saying is that, first and foremost, we are Christians and Christians have been around for nearly 2000 years. And I have never said, and I will never say, that Martin Luther is the founder of Christianity. Those words have not come from my mouth (or my keyboard) and they never will.

Where do I get the idea that I am Christian? I have been baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Even the Catholic Church recognizes that baptism as valid and that it makes me a Christian. I am a Christian in a tradition that confesses the Apostles’, Nicene, and Athanasian creeds as true statements of our beliefs about the Triune God.

How is it that I am Lutheran? I happens that I am the spiritual (and biological) descendant of Christians who left the Catholic Church for a variety of reasons. They may have been thrown out, ala Luther; they may have been subsumed into the national churches that were established to replace the Catholic Church, i.e., the state churches of Norway and Sweden; or, they may simply have found their faith in Christ strengthened and encouraged in non-Catholic churches.

To steal a phrase from your thread title, I’m “dead sure” that our Lord has not abandoned me because I’m a Lutheran and that when we Lutherans gather together his promise “where two or three are gathered in my name, I will be there,” does not go unfulfilled.

God’s blessings to you as you continue as a vociferous apologist for the Catholic Church.
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Your first line says it all. You were not around 2,000 years ago but Catholics were. You are a division from the Catholic church who is following a wanna be Reformer who couldn’t even get that right. If Luther was to succeed, he wouldn’t have failed because God does not fail…whatever excuses you have to give within this post, may God guide you back to the church He established. The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church. Founded by Christ given with authority to Peter being the first pope. 2,000 years with an unbroken line. Can you say that about your church? No.
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
Your first line says it all. You were not around 2,000 years ago but Catholics were. You are a division from the Catholic church who is following a wanna be Reformer who couldn’t even get that right. If Luther was to succeed, he wouldn’t have failed because God does not fail…whatever excuses you have to give within this post, may God guide you back to the church He established. The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church. Founded by Christ given with authority to Peter being the first pope. 2,000 years with an unbroken line. Can you say that about your church? No.
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OTCA,
Your triumphalism, which you express in almost every thread, reminds me of the old Kennel-Ration jingle. You remember?
“My dog’s bigger than your dog.”

Like the jingle became in it’s day, it is at times mildy irritating, usually vaguely amusing, but rarely convincing, and never enlightening (since we’ve heard it so much). Perhaps a different approach would help, but if not, I second Pastor Gary’s prayer for God’s blessings on your strong faith and defense of the Catholic Church.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
OTCA,
Your triumphalism, which you express in almost every thread, reminds me of the old Kennel-Ration jingle. You remember?
“My dog’s bigger than your dog.”

Like the jingle became in it’s day, it is at times mildy irritating, usually vaguely amusing, but rarely convincing, and never enlightening (since we’ve heard it so much). Perhaps a different approach would help, but if not, I second Pastor Gary’s prayer for God’s blessings on your strong faith and defense of the Catholic Church.

Jon
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Jon, if that’s what it takes to try and get through to some here…so be it.
 
racing59 said:
The Catholic Church is beautiful Church. You have a right to defend your faith when being attacked.My post was more for the Op that “all others are mistaken”. I feel this is to strong in coming across to non Catholic.I feel if one believes in Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior then how is that a mistake? The title is too strong, thats were I’m coming from.😉
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You need to accept things. You have a hard time in believing the truth of the church. For many centuries before the Reformation, it was always said as “there is no salvation outside the Catholic church”, only now I wished they’d go back and keep to what was originally said by the Early Church Fathers. And I am sorry to disappoint you but it is true that “all others are mistaken”.
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
You need to accept things. You have a hard time in believing the truth of the church. For many centuries before the Reformation, it was always said as “there is no salvation outside the Catholic church”, only now I wished they’d go back and keep to what was originally said by the Early Church Fathers. And I am sorry to disappoint you but it is true that “all others are mistaken”.
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The Catholic Church’s teaching about “there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church” has not changed but** developed.** Sorry if it’s too hard for you to comprehend, the teaching of the Catholic Church cannot be merely comprehended literally. There’s already a lot of thread about this, read it and understand it without prejudice first.

Here might be a little guide for you. Find out what’s
  1. visible boundary / invisible boundary of the Church
  2. Formal member of Catholic Church / Informal member of Catholic Church
  3. Divine Logos
  4. John 1:9
in this website catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp
 
When I told my two Protestant friends both happens to be Methodist, that what Catholic Church believed about salvation, (That if a person is ignorant of the Gospel, or** invicible ignorant** (heard but because of the way they brought up, do not believe in it) of it, but did what is good, **may be **saved", their immediate respond was “Then what’s the use of preaching the Gospel? We might ‘help’ the good man who does good deeds by NOT preaching them because if they are ignorant of the Gospel, they are saved but if they hear the Gospel, suddenly their chance to go to Heaven are canceled”

Well, can I ask back to those who has that mind set like my protestant friends above,

"There are some Atheist who are far more kind and helpful and do more charity than us Christians, and some of us christians do not care about others, do no charity and too selfish to help others, and we just christians just don’t need to do anything and just go to heaven just because we believe, and all the kind hearted atheist who helped ppl sincerely, but because they are afraid of hell, meaning even tho they do not believe in afterlife, they have helped ppl sincerely, MUST go to Hell just because they are not Christian?
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
You need to accept things. You have a hard time in believing the truth of the church. For many centuries before the Reformation, it was always said as “there is no salvation outside the Catholic church”, only now I wished they’d go back and keep to what was originally said by the Early Church Fathers. And I am sorry to disappoint you but it is true that “all others are mistaken”.
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I believe in the Early Fathers wrote some good stuff.Was it divine insperation?No! My mom was raised Catholic and they taught about infant Limbo.Was that a Church teaching? No! I found later Agustine toyed with the idea of an infant Limbo. So you see the Early Fathers were not always right and in agreement with each other. So in turn that gives me doubts. An if there is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church can you kindly explain to me I Corinthians 3:10-20 You can build on anything as long as its Jesus Christ. If it was the Catholic Church,we still survive?🤷
Peaqce
 
totallylost said:
When I told my two Protestant friends both happens to be Methodist, that what Catholic Church believed about salvation, (That if a person is ignorant of the Gospel, or** invicible ignorant** (heard but because of the way they brought up, do not believe in it) of it, but did what is good, **may be **saved", their immediate respond was “Then what’s the use of preaching the Gospel? We might ‘help’ the good man who does good deeds by NOT preaching them because if they are ignorant of the Gospel, they are saved but if they hear the Gospel, suddenly their chance to go to Heaven are canceled”
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They obviously weren’t very good Methodists - nor had they read Wesley’s sermons on grace and salvation - or they wouldn’t has said much a thing.

We have a lot of ‘cafeterial Christians’ too.
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
Thank you Mr. Pick, the truth is it is what it is…😉 non-Catholics will do anything to try and discredit St. Peter because if they acknowledge him as the pope, therefore Catholicism…even though he reigned 25 years as bishop of Rome. They really should realize that if it wasn’t for the Catholic church, they’d have no bible either.
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But remember he deferred to James the Just, Bishop of Jerusalem. And we wouldn’t have the Canon of Scripture if we didn’t have the Church Catholic, both east and west.:o I will acknowledge him as Pope, perhaps not the first one though, because I don’t think Paul was writing to him when he wrote his epistle to said church. I acknowledge him as the leading Apostle, but one that also was taken to task for misdeeds when it came to dealing with gentiles, if you remember Paul’s ranting about that. As a Protestant I do not discredit the venerable, blessed St. Peter, I see him for who he truly was: a man who was changed by Christ alone, and then sanctified by the prodding of the Holy Spirit to go out beyond himself and proclaim the gospel to the very ones the world called “unredeemable”, but our Lord and Savior called friend, brother and sister.
 
Louie1983 said:
Hi JonNC,

Interesting points you make, you say that a Lutheran is a Catholic of the Augsburg confession or an evangelical Catholic. You cannot be a Catholic if you do not accept the Pope as the leader of the church militant, or you do not accept ALL the teachings of the Catholic church as true, full-stop. There was no other Church (and no other teachings for that matter) for 1500 years until the reformation, the reformation saw groups break from the apostolic succession of the church therefore they broke with God’s true church.

I agree Catholics and Non- Catholics have certain connections (as stated in the catechism) and this is beautifull However you state correctly that we are connected imperfectly. The Church does teach that there is no salvation outside the church, If you study what the Church has said on this, you will see the nearly 2,000-year tradition on this teaching. It was only after the Second Vatican Council where liberal theologians began to challenge the age-old teaching of no salvation outside the Church.

God bless.
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I think a better descriptive of your church is Roman Catholic Church or Roman Church, not simply Catholic. You center your authority on a system derived in a feudal era to protect the power of an ancient, but in demise, city, Rome. Catholic is a name for the Church Universal that our Lord and Savior founded and that simple gospel is “Christ and him crucified” and earliest creed is “Jesus is Lord!”, whose utterance is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Salvation comes in belonging to Christ alone. I suspect this won’t be accepted by many in this forum, but it is just my two cents… God Bless.
 
motstraumen said:
But remember he deferred to James the Just, Bishop of Jerusalem. And we wouldn’t have the Canon of Scripture if we didn’t have the Church Catholic, both east and west.:o I will acknowledge him as Pope, perhaps not the first one though, because I don’t think Paul was writing to him when he wrote his epistle to said church. I acknowledge him as the leading Apostle, but one that also was taken to task for misdeeds when it came to dealing with gentiles, if you remember Paul’s ranting about that. As a Protestant I do not discredit the venerable, blessed St. Peter, I see him for who he truly was: a man who was changed by Christ alone, and then sanctified by the prodding of the Holy Spirit to go out beyond himself and proclaim the gospel to the very ones the world called “unredeemable”, but our Lord and Savior called friend, brother and sister.
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motstraumen, if you truly believe this, then why aren’t you Catholic? For the first 1500 years of Christianity, the people were Catholic. If this was so, then Christ must of established the Catholic church. The Catholic church is called “Universal” for all the people to belong to it. Why don’t you?
 
I don’t know what Catholic Church you are talking of but the one holy catholic and apostolic church is inclusive of many traditions and rites cultural or otherwise and has room for many.

By the grace of GOD it cannot be inclusive of various truths since there can be only one objective truth and that is what Mother Church has taught exclusively without fail for more than 2000 years.

I am certain that your marriage is blessed as are all marriages because the married state if one’s vocation is a special calling by GOD to live our saviours love and sacrifice in a special way. I doubt any informed Catholic would say otherwise.

Any beauty in the other churches are present because of GOD’s divine providence and the grace that abundantly flows from the Catholic church so if I admire anything it is our Father’s great plan in establishing our LORD’S church on earth in such a fashion that despite the pigheadedness of men they are constantly called back to the Roman Catholic Church.

I pray for your conversion
racing59 said:
The Catholic Church should be all inclusive of all faiths.These same old arguments get to me because Jesus was for all the world.If you believe the Catholic Church is right and others are wrong, so be it.But I think the point you are trying to make can be a little gentler. My wife and I were married in the Lurthern Church. I know in my heart our marriage was blessed by God.We Christians should not be wasting so much energy on splitting hairs or saying who is right and who is wrong. Just maybe if we look at the beauty in each others Church we would convert alot more people. Just my two cents.😉
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Pater_Familias said:
I don’t know what Catholic Church you are talking of but the one holy catholic and apostolic church is inclusive of many traditions and rites cultural or otherwise and has room for many.

By the grace of GOD it cannot be inclusive of various truths since there can be only one objective truth and that is what Mother Church has taught exclusively without fail for more than 2000 years.

I am certain that your marriage is blessed as are all marriages because the married state if one’s vocation is a special calling by GOD to live our saviours love and sacrifice in a special way. I doubt any informed Catholic would say otherwise.

Any beauty in the other churches are present because of GOD’s divine providence and the grace that abundantly flows from the Catholic church so if I admire anything it is our Father’s great plan in establishing our LORD’S church on earth in such a fashion that despite the pigheadedness of men they are constantly called back to the Roman Catholic Church.

I pray for your conversion
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Yes, but did you ever read the scripture where in Jesus talked to the brothers who were concerned about which one of them would sit at his right hand in heaven? I think Jesus made it quite clear that those who puff themselves up with importance and demand special attention for their being “first” would find themselves alas not where they expected.

I am always happy to see that the RCC doesn’t spend much time telling us Non RC’s that we are less than they are. I seriously question whether your braggadocia is appreciated by the RCC. All you claim depends on an interepretation of scripture that serves your interests in claiming primacy in Christendom. I have no idea why that is needed by a few RCC to feel good about their faith, but it is most apparent that it is. Blessings.
 
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