We Catholics Are Dead Sure The Church Is The One Church Of Christ And That All Others Are Mistaken

[gcnuss]

What I was saying in my earlier post is protestantism’ formal sufficiency is PRIVATE JUDGMENT. Private judgment makes a mockery of Absolute Truth.

Eric,

I hope I didn’t give you the impression that I espouse private judgment as the means by which I or Lutherans in general understand our faith. Quite the contrary. Our knowledge of the Triune God is based on more than two thousand years of teaching, based on both the Old Testament and the New Testament and on the teaching of our spiritual forefathers, including those of the first 1500 years of the Church. As I have said in other places, Lutheran teaching did not arise out of nothing five hundred years ago and it certainly does not arise out of our individual interpretations of scripture.

 

[rinnie]

There are two issues here, rinnie. The main issue is how do Lutherans do it?
The answer is confession is offered to a Lutheran in 2 forms. One is corporate/public confession during a typical divine service on a Sunday morning. The second form is in private confession to a pastor/confessor, which is probably not dissimilar to Catholic confession, at least in form if not content. In Luther’s small catechism, he outlines how we might confess, and this is the format that one will usually see in a Lutheran setting, regardless of synod.
bookofconcord.com/smallcatechism.php#confession

The second issue is the question of validity of Lutheran clergy, and therefore sacraments, as most, though not all, Lutherans are outside of apostolic succession. Without going into too much detail, this is a disagreement our communions have with each other. Sufficient to say that the Lutheran Confessions point to divine law and the historic use of presbyter ordination even within the Church prior to the Reformation. That’s not to say that Lutherans don’t value or reject AS. In fact, we believe it is desirable and preferable, as it demonstrates the unity of Christ’s Church. So, to answer your question, “*Now I thought that the only way that anything could be valid in any Catholic Church it had to be in communion with Rome? Now is your Priest ordained and does he have the sacrament of Holy Orders to offer the forgiveness of sins. *.” Rome says, no he doesn’t. Our Confession says, yes he does.
OTOH, Lutherans recognize the Catholic priesthood and sacraments as valid.

Jon

Hi Jon. Okay you answered my question. Lutherans are outside of Apostolic Succession. To me one sentence says it all. I cannot see how any Priest can offer forgiveness of sins without it. Here are the words I would get stuck on. What my Father has given me, I now give to you. Go and make disciples of all nations. What Jesus gave them is the Power. That power was promised to extend until the end of time. Now the Power was given to the Apostles and successsion not Luther to decide. Thats where I would have a big problem. But thanks for you response. I appreciate it.

 

[sambos671]

Hi Jon. Okay you answered my question. Lutherans are outside of Apostolic Succession. To me one sentence says it all. I cannot see how any Priest can offer forgiveness of sins without it. Here are the words I would get stuck on. What my Father has given me, I now give to you. Go and make disciples of all nations. What Jesus gave them is the Power. That power was promised to extend until the end of time. Now the Power was given to the Apostles and successsion not Luther to decide. Thats where I would have a big problem. But thanks for you response. I appreciate it.

Ah but are the Anglicans?

 

[GKC]

Ah but are the Anglicans?

Depends on who you ask.

GKC

 

[sambos671]

Depends on who you ask.

GKC

It seems to me that the Bishop of Cantabury was a properly ordained Bishop. And all the priest that he ordained were valid priest in the Catholic church but Henry successfully seperated from Rome does that make their validity any less?

 

[GKC]

It seems to me that the Bishop of Cantabury was a properly ordained Bishop. And all the priest that he ordained were valid priest in the Catholic church but Henry successfully seperated from Rome does that make their validity any less?

No, that wasn’t the issue. It was (according to the RCC), the change made to the form used to consecrate bishops, in 1549, which was the key. This, along with a technical issue related to sacramental intent, was judged to have broken Anglican apostolic succession, in 1559. The logic is stated in Apostolicae Curae (1896).

Of course, if you ask an Anglican, you’ll get another take on it. At least one other, anyway.

GKC

 

[sambos671]

No, that wasn’t the issue. It was (according to the RCC), the change made to the form used to consecrate bishops, in 1549, which was the key. This, along with a technical issue related to sacramental intent, was judged to have broken Anglican apostolic succession, in 1559. The logic is stated in Apostolicae Curae (1896).

Of course, if you ask an Anglican, you’ll get another take on it. At least one other, anyway.

GKC

A change of a form? Now the Catholic Church is being just as bad as most HMOs! Did the form have to be in tripicate as well? Hello! Wow! the Pope is the Head bureaucrat and the Church a bureaurcracy! I find that funny. I confirms my suspisions of the Canon Law.

 

[gcnuss]

Okay you answered my question. Lutherans are outside of Apostolic Succession.

Rinnie,

Note that John said “most, though not all, Lutherans are outside apostolic succession.” There are Lutherans, primarily in Scandinavia, who maintained valid orders through the conversion (voluntary or forced) of Catholic bishops, even if those orders are considered “illicit” by the Catholic Church.

At least that’s my understanding of the situation.

 

[DorianGregorian]

Ah but are the Anglicans?

Apostolic Curae article #36: Wherefore, strictly adhering, in this matter, to the decrees of the Pontiffs, Our Predecessors, and confirming them most fully, and, as it were, renewing them by Our authority, of Our own initiative and certain knowledge, We pronounce and declare that ordinations carried out according to the Anglican rite have been, and are, absolutely null and utterly void.

The entire Anglican Church is invalid and illicit, except for the few who are under the Old Catholic Church Bishops.

 

[sambos671]

Apostolic Curae article #36: Wherefore, strictly adhering, in this matter, to the decrees of the Pontiffs, Our Predecessors, and confirming them most fully, and, as it were, renewing them by Our authority, of Our own initiative and certain knowledge, We pronounce and declare that ordinations carried out according to the Anglican rite have been, and are, absolutely null and utterly void.

The entire Anglican Church is invalid and illicit, except for the few who are under the Old Catholic Church Bishops.

Please explain the last sentence to me.

 

[DorianGregorian]

The Old Catholic Church was a group of Catholics who split after Vatican I over Papal Infallibility. They have Valid Apostolic succession according to the C.C, and a very small minority of Anglican ‘bishops’ were given Holy Orders by the O.C Bishops. So there is a very small portion of the Anglican community that has maintained valid Apostolic Succession.

Laus Deo

 

[GKC]

The Old Catholic Church was a group of Catholics who split after Vatican I over Papal Infallibility. They have Valid Apostolic succession according to the C.C, and a very small minority of Anglican ‘bishops’ were given Holy Orders by the O.C Bishops. So there is a very small portion of the Anglican community that has maintained valid Apostolic Succession.

Laus Deo

The joint consecrations which followed from the intercommunion established between the Old Catholics (Utecht) and the Anglican Communion in 1932 (and similarly with the PNCC in 1946) gave Old Catholic/PNCC lines directly to a number of Anglican bishops. But, in the Augustinian mode, these Anglican bishops then passed those lines on each time they consecrated an Anglican bishop, and so on. By this time, the “Dutch Touch” is very widespread in Aglicanism. It’s difficult to find an Anglican bishop without it. My own rector was ordained by a bishop whose consecrators included one directly consecrated by a PNCC bishop, in 1962.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Apostolic Curae article #36: Wherefore, strictly adhering, in this matter, to the decrees of the Pontiffs, Our Predecessors, and confirming them most fully, and, as it were, renewing them by Our authority, of Our own initiative and certain knowledge, We pronounce and declare that ordinations carried out according to the Anglican rite have been, and are, absolutely null and utterly void.

The entire Anglican Church is invalid and illicit, except for the few who are under the Old Catholic Church Bishops.

As noted above, the Dutch Touch pervades Anglicanism. And so far, the RCC has made no definitive comment on what this means for Anglican orders. Though it is speculated that it might have played a part in the only two known sub conditione ordinations of former Anglican clergy.

GKC

 

[GKC]

A change of a form? Now the Catholic Church is being just as bad as most HMOs! Did the form have to be in tripicate as well? Hello! Wow! the Pope is the Head bureaucrat and the Church a bureaurcracy! I find that funny. I confirms my suspisions of the Canon Law.

No, that refers to the four elements required for a sacrament to be considered valid: form, intent, matter and minister. The form (in this case) are the words spoken in consecrating a bishop, as the form of baptism is the Trinitarian formula.

GKC

 

[JonNC]

Rinnie,

Note that John said “most, though not all, Lutherans are outside apostolic succession.” There are Lutherans, primarily in Scandinavia, who maintained valid orders through the conversion (voluntary or forced) of Catholic bishops, even if those orders are considered “illicit” by the Catholic Church.

At least that’s my understanding of the situation.

And ELCA clergy now claim AS through the Episcopal lines. But then, the Catholic Church considers them invalid.

Originally Posted by rinnie
Hi Jon. Okay you answered my question. Lutherans are outside of Apostolic Succession. To me one sentence says it all. I cannot see how any Priest can offer forgiveness of sins without it. Here are the words I would get stuck on. What my Father has given me, I now give to you. Go and make disciples of all nations. What Jesus gave them is the Power. That power was promised to extend until the end of time. Now the Power was given to the Apostles and successsion not Luther to decide. Thats where I would have a big problem. But thanks for you response. I appreciate it.

Hi rinnie,
And I wouldn’t expect you to see it any other way. You are Catholic. That is what Rome teaches. And if typed here that I agreed with you, you’d think me nuts for knowingly staying in a Church where I could not receive either the sacrament of Confession and Holy Absolution, or the Eucharist. So, hoping you don’t take me as totally stupid, you can probably figure out that yesterday, when my pastor said “as a called and ordained servant of Christ and by His authority, I therefore forgive you all of your sins, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen”, I know my sins were forgiven. And when he said the words of institution, I know that the bread and wine became the body and blood of Christ for me to receive.

I firmly believe that the day will come when our respective clergies will once again be one under AS, but until that time I am certain of our’s validity, as certain as I am of your’s.

Jon

 

[sambos671]

No, that refers to the four elements required for a sacrament to be considered valid: form, intent, matter and minister. The form (in this case) are the words spoken in consecrating a bishop, as the form of baptism is the Trinitarian formula.

GKC

I was kidding. I prefer Gregorian’s answer

 

[JonNC]

As noted above, the Dutch Touch pervades Anglicanism. And so far, the RCC has made no definitive comment on what this means for Anglican orders. Though it is speculated that it might have played a part in the only two known sub conditione ordinations of former Anglican clergy.

GKC

Does this extend to the Episcopal Church, as well?

Jon

 

[DorianGregorian]

Does this extend to the Episcopal Church, as well?

Jon

If it does to the Anglican it would to the Episcopal, but after the Episcopal Church in the US started ordaining Women as Bishops, it might be up in the air, since High Church Anglicans wouldn’t allow that.

 

[gcnuss]

And ELCA clergy now claim AS through the Episcopal lines.

Jon,

That may be true for some, but there are many who, despite Called to Common Mission (the ELCA-Episcopal agreement), wouldn’t claim any such thing and, in fact, would reject it. There is a very ardent congregationalist strain in the ELCA, predominant among those who were formerly in the ALC. They aren’t interested in AS in any shape or form if it involves recognizing any church authority outside of the local congregation.

I have painted with a broad brush. I am a product of the ALC – in my formative, i.e., confirmation, years. However, I now number myself among the Evangelical Catholics and recognize value of restoring AS within the ELCA.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,

Note that John said “most, though not all, Lutherans are outside apostolic succession.” There are Lutherans, primarily in Scandinavia, who maintained valid orders through the conversion (voluntary or forced) of Catholic bishops, even if those orders are considered “illicit” by the Catholic Church.

At least that’s my understanding of the situation.

Yes, I most certainly did understand that. And when I checked into it myself you are correct.