We Changed the Church and Regret It

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I can deny it. I do not doubt that the Church has problems, and always has. However, I do not see today as even making the top ten crisis times. Twenty years ago when the pedophile problem was at the top of the news, it might have squeezed into the top ten.

Go outside of traditionalism to the Church at large and poll how many see the Church in a theological crisis. I think you will find it very possible to deny this crisis mentality.
Well said! I’m sure the TLM is something…because many of the people here say it is…although I do wish more could explain why without putting down the NO.

That being said…the NO is what brought me back to Catholicism and is what is bringing my husband to conversion. It will always have a special place. It drew us to God like a moth to a flame.

Isn’t is wonderful that we have two different valid forms to choose from? I sure wish more people could embrace that. That being said…if Holy Mother Church said there was only one, then that’s the one I would go to. I trust her wisdom.
 
I can deny it. I do not doubt that the Church has problems, and always has. However, I do not see today as even making the top ten crisis times. Twenty years ago when the pedophile problem was at the top of the news, it might have squeezed into the top ten.

Go outside of traditionalism to the Church at large and poll how many see the Church in a theological crisis. I think you will find it very possible to deny this crisis mentality.
And we would, for the most part, be polling people who don’t even understand the basics of Our Faith, or are in general, apathetic. How could they possibly see any crisis?

The only crisis most Catholics are aware of is the abuse scandal. Lack of understanding what the Eucharist is all about, doesn’t generally make Fox News.
 
Well said! I’m sure the TLM is something…because many of the people here say it is…although I do wish more could explain why without putting down the NO.

That being said…the NO is what brought me back to Catholicism and is what is bringing my husband to conversion. It will always have a special place. It drew us to God like a moth to a flame.

Isn’t is wonderful that we have two different valid forms to choose from? I sure wish more people could embrace that. That being said…if Holy Mother Church said there was only one, then that’s the one I would go to. I trust her wisdom.
Amen! And well said. In like manner with the Eastern and Latin rites, we also have two forms of mass which are both equally valid.
 
The way I see it, is the powers that be at VII did what they did with good intentions. The world was a big place by the early 60’s and by '69 it was nothing at all like it was in the days of the previous Council.

By then, and I think it can be argued in fairness, society had changed so much and so fast, that what I like to call The Tridentine Catholicism was by then so far removed from what society had come to accept and embrace, an effort was made to deal with it.

Enter “The Spirit of VII”. Obviously the documents were taken to allow innovative ideas to be applied to this changing society.
  • New Mass culminating into
    • vernacular
    • priest faces people
    • altar girls
    • other laity of both sexes in the Sanctuary
      - lectors
      - EMHC
      - no vestments required
    • Communion under both Species
    • CITH standing and COTT standing
  • Holy Days moved to Sunday
  • Interfaith services
  • Traditional vestments and habits replaced by others

    Point is, any of the above was never pondered for centuries. It was an about face when compared to the pre VII practice of Catholicism. So here we sit today bickering, because The Tridentine Catholicism world view never died. 50 years of the post VII norms didn’t wipe it out. Society couldn’t wipe it out. Double whammy.

    I’m tired of arguing about it though. I hold the Tridentine view and accept VII happened. I know things will get better, slowly. I see enough good happening in the Church today. And hey, the OF parish I go to for weekday Mass prays the Rosary before Mass. It’s not like I’m mingling with apostates 🤷

    I just pray the day comes when every Mass is prayed as it was, and should be. That part of my love for Catholicism will never die. And I don’t think it’s wrong.
 
The way I see it, is the powers that be at VII did what they did with good intentions.
Most did, yes, but there are some very interesting books with compelling cases, not crazy conspiracies, about the back room wheeling and dealing that went on during Vatican II.

You also have to take into account the Post-War European mindset that was at work at the time. I discussed it, in brief in another post:

There is a great documentary out right now, you can see it on Netflix, called Helvetica. It is about the creation of the type-font “Helvetica.” It doesn’t speak about liturgy specifically, but it discusses the mindset in post-WW II Europe that believed if we brought everything down to a base level, made all things (street signs, products, clothing, type-face, religions, ect…) look the same there would be no more conflict. Everything would have clarity and there would be no more divisions.

This idea was very popular in places like Switzerland, Belgium, certainly in France and somewhat in Italy. Vatican II fathers, like, Hans Kung, certainly came out of this ethos. It didn’t only happen in the Catholic Church, it was also happening in Protestant churches. Leaders in most major denominations were getting together through various World Church Council gatherings to create within their denominations a church of sameness. That is, if all churches ‘looked alike’ we could overcome all our differences.

What is the next step of this philosophy? “The Global Ethic,” that is what these same people who wanted all churches the same in the 60s are calling for now. Hans Kung, key figure of Vatican II, is at the forefront of this movement now. Check it out on Youtube. The idea of no religion, just global standards of ethics that all must adhere to.
 
Most did, yes, but there are some very interesting books with compelling cases, not crazy conspiracies, about the back room wheeling and dealing that went on during Vatican II.

You also have to take into account the Post-War European mindset that was at work at the time. I discussed it, in brief in another post:

There is a great documentary out right now, you can see it on Netflix, called Helvetica. It is about the creation of the type-font “Helvetica.” It doesn’t speak about liturgy specifically, but it discusses the mindset in post-WW II Europe that believed if we brought everything down to a base level, made all things (street signs, products, clothing, type-face, religions, ect…) look the same there would be no more conflict. Everything would have clarity and there would be no more divisions.

This idea was very popular in places like Switzerland, Belgium, certainly in France and somewhat in Italy. Vatican II fathers, like, Hans Kung, certainly came out of this ethos. It didn’t only happen in the Catholic Church, it was also happening in Protestant churches. Leaders in most major denominations were getting together through various World Church Council gatherings to create within their denominations a church of sameness. That is, if all churches ‘looked alike’ we could overcome all our differences.

What is the next step of this philosophy? “The Global Ethic,” that is what these same people who wanted all churches the same in the 60s are calling for now. Hans Kung, key figure of Vatican II, is at the forefront of this movement now. Check it out on Youtube. The idea of no religion, just global standards of ethics that all must adhere to.
Yes, I know the wheels are turning, but we do have Christ’s promise and I have faith in that promise.

The stories of masons and their influence etc. shouldn’t be taken lightly, but judging by the younger priests I’ve encountered, it’s not getting worse, it’s getting better. There are still parishes here in town that I tend to avoid, but there are a few that are abuse free as well.

I’m certainly not denying there are evil forces at work today, but I’m just at a point where I believe one prayer is worth a hundred circular arguments. We get on here and post and say things in ways we would never do if we were sitting across a table from one another. It’s crazy, because we have more in common that we ever realize.
 
I’m certainly not denying there are evil forces at work today, but I’m just at a point where I believe one prayer is worth a hundred circular arguments. We get on here and post and say things in ways we would never do if we were sitting across a table from one another. It’s crazy, because we have more in common that we ever realize.
:amen:
 
Yes, I know the wheels are turning, but we do have Christ’s promise and I have faith in that promise.

The stories of masons and their influence etc. shouldn’t be taken lightly, but judging by the younger priests I’ve encountered, it’s not getting worse, it’s getting better. There are still parishes here in town that I tend to avoid, but there are a few that are abuse free as well.

I’m certainly not denying there are evil forces at work today, but I’m just at a point where I believe one prayer is worth a hundred circular arguments. We get on here and post and say things in ways we would never do if we were sitting across a table from one another. It’s crazy, because we have more in common that we ever realize.
Not arguing, passing along a point of view and a different way of looking at things. How much of Hans Kung’s dissent got into the documents of VII, I don’t know. I have faith that the Holy Ghost was at work in VII–AT the Second Vatican Council, not necessarily what followed. Therefore, I trust the mind of the Church at work within the Council documents.

Nothing I said above or on this forum would be any different than what I would say in person. I have sat down with an entire community of monks and said just about everything I’ve ever said on these forums. Most, sadly, didn’t know their faith. Some, big defenders of Vatican II, didn’t know there were “documents.” I said nothing in my statement above that isn’t available to research, particularly my comments of Hans Kung. You can watch him give whole speeches and hear his heresies for yourself online.

As for prayer, nothing is more powerful than prayer. I absolutely agree, if we as a Church, spent more time praying, making sacrifices and avoiding sin–we would be that Light Unto the Nations we need to be. Which is why I think many orthodox and traditionalist Catholics spend so much time writing, organizing and expounding on the need for the Church to get back to essentials. Not because we’re this hateful lot that loves to bring everyone down. But, rather, because we love so much, we want all souls saved.

As for things getting better, I have posted many times on other threads that I have seen miraculous changes happen in the last 15 years, I never thought I would see in my lifetime. I was looking over a spiritual journal I kept in college in the 90s and saw that I had written in 1994, something like, “No matter how dark things look, we are one day closer to the Church being glorified.” That sums up my Hope.

More in common with whom?
 
Most did, yes, but there are some very interesting books with compelling cases, not crazy conspiracies, about the back room wheeling and dealing that went on during Vatican II.

You also have to take into account the Post-War European mindset that was at work at the time. I discussed it, in brief in another post:

There is a great documentary out right now, you can see it on Netflix, called Helvetica. It is about the creation of the type-font “Helvetica.” It doesn’t speak about liturgy specifically, but it discusses the mindset in post-WW II Europe that believed if we brought everything down to a base level, made all things (street signs, products, clothing, type-face, religions, ect…) look the same there would be no more conflict. Everything would have clarity and there would be no more divisions.

This idea was very popular in places like Switzerland, Belgium, certainly in France and somewhat in Italy. Vatican II fathers, like, Hans Kung, certainly came out of this ethos. It didn’t only happen in the Catholic Church, it was also happening in Protestant churches. Leaders in most major denominations were getting together through various World Church Council gatherings to create within their denominations a church of sameness. That is, if all churches ‘looked alike’ we could overcome all our differences.

What is the next step of this philosophy? “The Global Ethic,” that is what these same people who wanted all churches the same in the 60s are calling for now. Hans Kung, key figure of Vatican II, is at the forefront of this movement now. Check it out on Youtube. The idea of no religion, just global standards of ethics that all must adhere to.
Hans Kung was stripped of his teaching authority by Pope John Paul II. Everything is turning around from what the “reformers” wanted in the 1960s.

God bless,
Ed
 
New popes intervened and called a halt just as we were about to tackle the exclusion of women from the leading sacrament, intolerance of the gay and lesbian lifestyles, outdated notions of birth control and other matters of life and death.
“Outdated notions of birth control…” Tells me all I need to know. I assume she believes the Bible is a living document, and should be updated to reflect the new morality?

I feel sorry for her, and pray she finds her way out of the darkness…
 
Not arguing,…

More in common with whom?
I know you aren’t arguing 🙂

I meant the EF and OF crowd having more in common with each other. For example, we pray the same Creed.
 
And we would, for the most part, be polling people who don’t even understand the basics of Our Faith, or are in general, apathetic. How could they possibly see any crisis?
See, I would also disagree with this statement. I know hundreds of Catholics in my parish who are very enthusiastic about their faith, have a good understanding of the Catholic faith, yet have never heard of many of the issues that get us all worked up here. I know there are many fallen away Catholics that do not attend Mass and therefore have lost there faith. I know there are also those in the the pews who have been swept aside by sin that so permeates our age. Thus, they are no longer open to the grace of God. However, most of those that are faithful and have never heard of the TLM or the SSPX or the rank and file Catholic. It is this cadre who will keep the Church strong. This is the largest part of the body of Christ. Thus, I remain an optimist and see no crisis.
 
Not arguing, passing along a point of view and a different way of looking at things. How much of Hans Kung’s dissent got into the documents of VII, I don’t know. I have faith that the Holy Ghost was at work in VII–AT the Second Vatican Council, not necessarily what followed. Therefore, I trust the mind of the Church at work within the Council documents.

Nothing I said above or on this forum would be any different than what I would say in person. I have sat down with an entire community of monks and said just about everything I’ve ever said on these forums. Most, sadly, didn’t know their faith. Some, big defenders of Vatican II, didn’t know there were “documents.” I said nothing in my statement above that isn’t available to research, particularly my comments of Hans Kung. You can watch him give whole speeches and hear his heresies for yourself online.

As for prayer, nothing is more powerful than prayer. I absolutely agree, if we as a Church, spent more time praying, making sacrifices and avoiding sin–we would be that Light Unto the Nations we need to be. Which is why I think many orthodox and traditionalist Catholics spend so much time writing, organizing and expounding on the need for the Church to get back to essentials. Not because we’re this hateful lot that loves to bring everyone down. But, rather, because we love so much, we want all souls saved.

As for things getting better, I have posted many times on other threads that I have seen miraculous changes happen in the last 15 years, I never thought I would see in my lifetime. I was looking over a spiritual journal I kept in college in the 90s and saw that I had written in 1994, something like, “No matter how dark things look, we are one day closer to the Church being glorified.” That sums up my Hope.

More in common with whom?
We all know that the Holy Spirit was given to us to guide the Church and us. And, yes, He was at work in the middle of V II. The only trouble is that, from the results of V II, I don’t think that many of the participants had paid any attention to Him.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
I wonder where these reverent NO masses are actually located. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I hear this all the time. But what do I actually see?!
I belong to a parish that has a very reverent NO mass. But this past weekend while traveling out of state, I attended an unfamiliar Catholic parish. I was not pleased with what I saw there. I am a new Catholic, but I still knew something was amiss.
Stadium seating with slanted floors tipped me off to the possibility that this church was not designed with a reverent Mass in mind.
The choir area, which was empty, was not a loft at the back, but right up front, mere feet from the altar.
There was no crucifix, only a ‘risen Christ’ lifting himself off of the cross.
There was no stained glass illumination of gospel scenes, nor stations of the cross.
In place of the choir were four men with microphone stands, a guitar, and an electronic keyboard. These were arranged IN FRONT OF a gorgeous pipe organ that had pipes that graced one wall of the church. Yet this beautiful instrument sat unused.
The ‘minister of music’ directed the worship service from a seated position at the keyboard. That’s right NO CANTOR!
At first I thought there were no holy water fonts, but then I saw what appeared to be brass ash trays mounted to the wall on either side of the doors. Sure enough, they contained holy water, but they still looked like ash trays. I am used to more ornate or free-standing fonts that have inscriptions and artwork on them.
The priests chair was exactly the same size as the chairs for the altar servers. The altar servers were seated on his right and his left. I have never witnessed such an arrangement.
Thankfully, although the music was extremely contemporary electronica in style, none of the words of the liturgy were actually changed. We were able to follow along, but both my husband and myself intend to go to the downtown cathedral next time we are in town. We were both very unsettled. I was merely grateful that I was able to fulfill my obligation to attend Sunday mass and that we were able to receive Jesus in communion. I also appreciated actually having kneelers, because our own parish has so outgrown our small-town historic church that we have to have Mass in the parish hall/gymnasium, which of course has no kneelers. Ironically however, our parish hall is far more Catholic in design and appearance than the church we visited. When we first entered, I seriously thought we had accidentally walked into a Protestant church! :o I really didn’t like having to work so hard to find things that were positive about a Mass.
 
Not arguing, passing along a point of view and a different way of looking at things. How much of Hans Kung’s dissent got into the documents of VII, I don’t know. I have faith that the Holy Ghost was at work in VII–AT the Second Vatican Council, not necessarily what followed. Therefore, I trust the mind of the Church at work within the Council documents.

Nothing I said above or on this forum would be any different than what I would say in person. I have sat down with an entire community of monks and said just about everything I’ve ever said on these forums. Most, sadly, didn’t know their faith. Some, big defenders of Vatican II, didn’t know there were “documents.” I said nothing in my statement above that isn’t available to research, particularly my comments of Hans Kung. You can watch him give whole speeches and hear his heresies for yourself online.

As for prayer, nothing is more powerful than prayer. I absolutely agree, if we as a Church, spent more time praying, making sacrifices and avoiding sin–we would be that Light Unto the Nations we need to be. Which is why I think many orthodox and traditionalist Catholics spend so much time writing, organizing and expounding on the need for the Church to get back to essentials. Not because we’re this hateful lot that loves to bring everyone down. But, rather, because we love so much, we want all souls saved.

As for things getting better, I have posted many times on other threads that I have seen miraculous changes happen in the last 15 years, I never thought I would see in my lifetime. I was looking over a spiritual journal I kept in college in the 90s and saw that I had written in 1994, something like, “No matter how dark things look, we are one day closer to the Church being glorified.” That sums up my Hope.

More in common with whom?
There is so much to be done , however. My Daughter is an RN and has one year of School left. She is attending a Catholic College of Nursing and has to take a required theology class. So far , the first day of School - she believes that her instructor who is a Catholic Nun - is a feminist. The sister made the Statement that Scripture is the Word of GOD - BUT it was written by men. My Daughter is probably going to have to “unlearn” much of what she is being “taught”. Unfortunately - at once Catholic Universities throughout our country , there is a lot of misinformation being diseminated.
 
But that is true. The only part God wrote directly, or dictated, was the Mosaic Law. Perhaps I miss your point?
The Word of GOD isnt diminished by the writer - because the Holy Spirit is the Author. So - for all intents and purposes , she is attempting to forward an opinion that “Man” is the author. Thats erroneous. St Paul - took pen in hand - but The Holy Ghost inspired the thoughts put to paper. And why should we be surprised by this - the POPE when teaching Ex Cathedra does the same thing today. Scripture is indeed the Word of GOD. Just as the Immaculate Conception in Divine Tradition is the Word of GOD.

That revealed by GOD to men - as in Scripture or in DOGMA is of GOD , not men.

Its the same as saying that Pope Pius the IX , a man , was teaching the Immaculate Conception
 
The Word of GOD isnt diminished by the writer - because the Holy Spirit is the Author. So - for all intents and purposes , she is attempting to forward an opinion that “Man” is the author. Thats erroneous. St Paul - took pen in hand - but The Holy Ghost inspired the thoughts put to paper.
The thoughts, but not the words. The Catholic Church does not hold the verbal plenary theory of inspiration (dictation). The authors did much more than “hold the pen”. Anyone who has translated the different books can see a real difference in authorship.
The Catholic Church holds the Bible as inspired by God, but does not view God as the direct author of the Bible, in the sense that He does not put a ‘ready-made’ book in the mind of the inspired person.[5]
As summarized by Karl Keating,[6] the Roman Catholic apologetic for the inspiration of scripture first considers the scriptures as a merely historical source, and then it attempts to derive the divinity of Jesus from the information contained therein, illuminated by the tradition of the Catholic Church and by what they consider to be common knowledge about human nature. After offering evidence that Jesus is indeed God, they argue that his Biblical promise to establish a church that will never perish cannot be empty, and that promise, they believe, implies an infallible teaching authority vested in the church. They conclude that this authoritative Church teaches that the Bible’s own doctrine of inspiration is in fact the correct one.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inspiration

I do not mean to defend this woman if she meant something other than what the Church taught, but what has been posted so far on this subject is dead on.
 
Hans Kung was stripped of his teaching authority by Pope John Paul II. Everything is turning around from what the “reformers” wanted in the 1960s.

God bless,
Ed
I think that things are beginning to turn around, but the American hierarchy, as a whole, is not happy about that. And yes, Kung was stripped of his teaching authority, but it didn’t stop his writing, his interviews, etc., etc. In fact, HCC. is correct about the cadre of northern European “intellectuals & theologians”. They pretty much hijacked the council.

When plans for the Second Vatican Council (1962-65) were announced, Edward Schillebeeckx responded as coauthor of a statement, signed by the seven Dutch bishops, that anticipated virtually all the progressive changes that would come out of Vatican II on issues like liturgy, ecumenism and openness to other faiths and the encouragement of lay initiative. Although Schillebeeckx was not a peritus (expert) at the council, he worked closely with** Utrecht Cardinal ****Bernard Alfrink **and others to emphasize the collegial nature of the episcopacy, as a balance to papal infallibility pronounced at Vatican I (1869-70). The Dogmatic Constitution of the Church reflected his views on the subject. Also during the Second Vatican Council, **Schillebeeckx joined with fellow theologians **Hans Küng, Karl Rahner and Yves Congar in launching the theological journal Concilium.

One of our posters, Layman is his screen name, has a link in his signature line that takes one to the following page:

latin-mass-society.org/leomass.htm

For two years before the Council a group of 871 scholars of international repute had been busy preparing all the draft documents of the Council on the instructions of Pope John. **These documents were totally orthodox and in complete accord with the traditions of the Church. In July 1962, some four months before the opening of the Council, these preparatory documents were sent to all the bishops of the world for their consideration. **

At that time there was a growing liberal influence among the clergy in the Rhine countries of northern Europe, particularly Germany and Holland, and many of these clerics were appalled by the orthodoxy of these documents. They wished to move towards a much more liberal outlook and greater collaboration with the Protestant religions, and particularly the Lutheran Church . These liberally minded clerics formed themselves into groups, held secret meetings throughout Europe and arrived in Rome in October 1962 with a plan of action. The Dutch hierarchy issued a commentary on these preparatory documents, attacked them for their content, suggested they be completely re-written and that their own documents be considered first. The great majority of the Council Fathers, the world’s bishops, had arrived in Rome with no pre-conceived ideas and were lulled into accepting these well-argued policies by people who were clever and persuasive. (Our own Bishops have always been overimpressed by the European hierarchy & took in every word they said.) They voted to accept the Dutch demands. Well, to cut a long story very short,** the original preparatory documents on which the 871 international scholars had worked for two years were thrown out by the Council, the first General Congregation was suspended after only 15 minutes, and only two weeks after the opening of the Council **not one of these carefully prepared documents remained. Not a single sentence was retained. All were consigned to the wastepaper basket.

Father Ralph Wiltgen, wrote a book called “The Rhine flows into the Tiber.” Father John O’Malley wrote one called:
“What Happened at Vatican II.”

Both of these books should be “must-reads” for every Catholic.
 
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