Wealthy people must embrace 'logic of giving,' Pope tells Sunday audience

[simple_soul]

And mine also Simple Soul, How can we Catholics treat the poor, the widow, the old , the immagrant…as"expendable people" who have little or no dignity?
When did money become more important than human dignity?
All human life, regardless of stage of development, socioeconomic status, nationality,religious, race, political leaning,sex or sexsual orientation, is sacred , has dignity and is loved by God. We are all children of God…all flawed…all special…all possessing dignity…all loved by God.
God’ Kingdom has NO boundries.God’s love has no boundries.
God’s mercy on all the just and the right, God’s mercy has NO boundries.
We are all called to treat others as Christ would treat them. We are called to be merciful.

Social justice is not Socialism!!!
Peace, Carlan

You would probably love the sermon I caught on EWTN this morning. If you are interested it usually airs later tonight. The father made that very same point.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Including government in charity is largely a mistake if you want actual results.

It’s pretty clear to me that people who bleat the “help the poor” phrase on here and elsewhere don’t have it so bad themselves and think that checking the D box fulfills a good chunk if not all of what they need to do, even if it means destroying the country and killing the old and unborn.

It’s a lot more fun when you can play around with other people’s earnings, but Jesus was talking about giving of oneself, NOT taking from your neighbor to give to others. If the very poor (and in this country, I take the word “poor” with a big time grain of salt) see fit, they can under certain circumstances take without permission because in Catholic theology they have (dare I say it) a right to it.

It makes me wonder when Jesus said “the Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak” was also in reference to fighting those feelings of being popular in front of people who are different instead of committing grave evil to appease them.

As far as being rich goes:

If you make over $34,000 a year, you’re in the global 1%.

So the men of the Church were mistaken?

Do we want a Christian country or not? We seem to think it’s righteous to legislate some moral good, but not others through government?

I don’t think the Pope’s message, or that of the bishops, is that hard to understand and doesn’t need the dissecting being applied to deny them.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I’m with you on how American’s define their ‘poor’. Seriously guys, you want poor? Head over here (or worse yet, India or Africa). I know you guys are panicking about your economy but it’s not like you’re Mexico just yet.

At least gasoline doesn’t eat up a majority of your average countryman’s salary.

The same goes for the ‘religious persecution’. We’re not suffering the persecution some of the Church is suffering in other parts of the world. It’s all based on partisanship, and not spirituality, it seems.

Believe it or not, America does have poor, just as you’d find in India or Africa. Not in as big of numbers, but it’s a good point. If we won’t take care of the few America has, good luck to getting some to help other parts of the world.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The Democrats are still hung up on the idea that tax is the same thing as charity and do they ever love “charity”.

Ironic that no one mentioned partisanship until those that oppose helping the poor through government brought it up.

 

[Brendan]

So the men of the Church were mistaken?

Of course not, which is why I quote St. John Chrysostom. He articulaes the position of the Church best of all (hence his title of 'Doctor of the Church)

Do we want a Christian country or not? We seem to think it’s righteous to legislate some moral good, but not others through government?

Actually, we, as a Church, DO think that it righteous for the State to legislate on some moral issues but not others. It is a moral good for everyone to be Catholic and to attend daily Mass, but no one in the Church is advocating that such be legislated by the State. Forced Mass attendance gives no Grace to the attendee nor to the world. Neither does forced Charity.

I don’t think the Pope’s message, or that of the bishops, is that hard to understand and doesn’t need the dissecting being applied to deny them.

Who is denying it? I have seen no one here denying such

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Of course not, which is why I quote St. John Chrysostom. He articulaes the position of the Church best of all (hence his title of 'Doctor of the Church)

So, St. John Chrysostom trumps the bishops in today’s times, as they say the problem is so large we need government involvement on the problem?

Actually, we, as a Church, DO think that it righteous for the State to legislate on some moral issues but not others. It is a moral good for everyone to be Catholic and to attend daily Mass, but no one in the Church is advocating that such be legislated by the State. Forced Mass attendance gives no Grace to the attendee nor to the world. Neither does forced Charity.

Here’s where we run into problems. Below is an excerpt from ‘the Doctor of the Church’.

The only way to achieve true justice is to change people’s hearts first — and then they will joyfully share their wealth.

Now with a minor change:

The only way to achieve true justice is to change people’s hearts first — and then they will joyfully refuse abortions.

Morality cannot be forced on any issue. Murder is against the law, has it stopped murders from happening? Robberies? Rape? Drugs?

As Christians we should seek justice, according to His principles/teachings, at every opportunity. As a Christian nation, of we the people, we are the government. So we should be joyful that we have been blessed to be in a country that has legislation in place to help those less fortunate. Who are we protecting from having their money ‘taken and distributed’ through taxes? Don’t all Christians agree we should share what we have?

Even what you provided from the ‘doctor of the Church’ does not exclude material justice, but teaches that we seek a conversion of the heart so that all joyfully share their wealth.

The only way to achieve true justice is to change people’s hearts first — and then they will joyfully share their wealth

Who is denying it? I have seen no one here denying such

We can read back through the thread and see a couple of insinuations of underlying problems of not motivated, handouts, lazy, etc. Just as a conversion of hearts is needed for sharing wealth, a conversion of heart is needed in all aspects of a person’s short comings, for those that they might exist with. There should also be a recognition of those who need help because they have no other resources to turn too. Not everyone is equal, and all life situations the same. No one grows up to strive to be medically/age challenged, or even drug dependent, or an alcoholic. The latter are problems also. When support is provided it gives an opportunity to ‘evangelize’ and hope/pray for a conversion of the heart.

Christ gave simple and explicit instructions, that apparently did not need qualifying. He didn’t say, ‘feed the hungry, unless they’re able bodied.’ He didn’t say, ‘give shelter to the poor, unless you believe they be otherwise on their own.’ These instructions come under teachings of ‘love one another’ or ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you.’ That means imagine yourself in that position and then decide how you would want to be treated. It’s really that simple. It doesn’t take reading through stacks of documents in order to find another way. If another and better way is offered, by all means change, but do not stop in between.

This is not a partisan problem. It’s not about who one votes for. It’s about accountability where it counts. Lord you blessed us with wealth through a democratic and free country. We did all we good to share the blessing among all.

No one is looking to bankrupt another. I would gladly pay a higher tax rate if I knew it would benefit others. I don’t feel my taxes should go towards more armaments. Where’s the outrage?

 

[Brendan]

Prodigal

What objection did you have for including the FULL quote from the Golden Mouthed Saint?

Material justice cannot be accomplished by compulsion, a change of heart will not follow. The only way to achieve true justice is to change people’s hearts first — and then they will joyfully share their wealth

In his statement, he specificall referred to material justice and the joy of sharing wealth, yet you redacted those parts out.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Prodigal

What objection did you have for including the FULL quote from the Golden Mouthed Saint?

In his statement, he specificall referred to material justice and the joy of sharing wealth, yet you redacted those parts out.

I didn’t take anything out, but tried to provide the entire gist of what I saw. The end result of a conversion of the heart was a joyful sharing of wealth. I apologize if I did not make it clear, but the same could be applied to those who take for granted the receiving. Even with that said, I believe we both can agree that there are truly people who need assistance to enjoy a dignity of life; e.g. elderly, disabled, and some strictly poverty stricken. Not everyone receiving assistance has other options.

 

[pismopal]

Ironic that no one mentioned partisanship until those that oppose helping the poor through government brought it up.

If the government is so helpful to the poor why is it that we have increasing numbers on public assistance after so many years of throwing money at the problem? Answer: Because having the government throw money at the less fortunate is not a solution. A strong economy and safety net programs , as opposed to government hammocks…seems to work best. Statists will never understand that.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

If the government is so helpful to the poor why is it that we have increasing numbers on public assistance after so many years of throwing money at the problem? Answer: Because having the government throw money at the less fortunate is not a solution. A strong economy and safety net programs , as opposed to government hammocks…seems to work best. Statists will never understand that.

So, until the strong economy is established what do you propose we do for those that need assistance now?

 

[pismopal]

So, until the strong economy is established what do you propose we do for those that need assistance now?

Do you actually think that the people of the USA…the Church and other Christian charities…people of conscience from all persuasions would allow the needy to go without assistance?? People who are permenently on the dole NEVER want to get off. If you think that the handouts from government does not come at a price…you are wrong. Check out how efficient our tax money is being used…this is simply robbery…not charity. The bottom line is…we both want to help the helpless…we just differ on how it is best done for all concerned. Leave it at that:shrug:

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Do you actually think that the people of the USA…the Church and other Christian charities…people of conscience from all persuasions would allow the needy to go without assistance?? People who are permenently on the dole NEVER want to get off. If you think that the handouts from government does not come at a price…you are wrong. Check out how efficient our tax money is being used…this is simply robbery…not charity. The bottom line is…we both want to help the helpless…we just differ on how it is best done for all concerned. Leave it at that:shrug:

Then where does that place the bishops stating, ‘In addition to this important work, government “must continue to play its part as well?’

We’re supposed to set aside personal position to elect the candidate that will provide the most moral support, according to His teachings/principles, unless it comes to taking our taxes?

Now, we both differ on how to achieve help for the poverty stricken and I asked what do we do until a strong economy has been established? Instead of answering that you immediately went off about ‘handouts’, ‘people on the dole’, ‘how efficient our tax money is being used’, and ‘robbery’. It’s language like that that makes one question the ‘other way to help the poverty stricken’?

Christ did not teach, ‘everyone for themselves’. He never insinuated anything like that.

 

[Brendan]

Then where does that place the bishops stating, ‘In addition to this important work, government “must continue to play its part as well?’ .

A great example would be in recognizing that income donated to charity is not really true income at all, but returning to God what is God’s; and provide the appropriate tax deduction.

And perhaps go further and recognizing that personal time donated has value, and thus providing for a tax deduction for that as well. In would be a fulfillment fo giving to God what is God’s not to Caesar.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

A great example would be in recognizing that income donated to charity is not really true income at all, but returning to God what is God’s; and provide the appropriate tax deduction.

And perhaps go further and recognizing that personal time donated has value, and thus providing for a tax deduction for that as well. In would be a fulfillment fo giving to God what is God’s not to Caesar.

You get tax deduction from the bishops stating government need help with poverty?

I know personal time has value, so does donations, and because we are blessed in a democracy, so can our taxes. We the people are Caesar in this instance. We can help by voicing our support for social programs, as we do other issues important to the dignity of life, from conception to natural death.

 

[zab]

It is not only the very wealthy people who need to embrace the “logic of giving” but all of us as well. Some of the most charitable people are those who share what little they have with those who have even less. They, too, can experience the joy of giving as well as gratitude for what they have been given. I am not suggesting that we should not have any government programs to help the poor. But I am saying that it should be the moral duty of all of us, not just the wealthy or the government. When the government demands an unjust increase of taxes on the wealthy to fund their programs something is lost. In some cases, what would have been charity turns into a duty of paying taxes. And then there are those who may not have much but they still miss out on the benefits of charitable giving when they leave it up to the government and the wealthy to take care of the poor while they wait to “win the lottery” or come into some wealth of their own. God truly blesses those who love Him.

 

[Carlan]

It is not only the very wealthy people who need to embrace the “logic of giving” but all of us as well. Some of the most charitable people are those who share what little they have with those who have even less. They, too, can experience the joy of giving as well as gratitude for what they have been given. I am not suggesting that we should not have any government programs to help the poor.

But I am saying that it should be the moral duty of all of us,

You are right, however, why do you assume all who are hard up and are in poor circumstances do not do their best to love and support their neighbor in what ever way they are able?
Peace, Carlan

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

You are right, however, why do you assume all who are hard up and are in poor circumstances do not do their best to love and support their neighbor in what ever way they are able?
Peace, Carlan

Why do those on the Left assume that the well off do not do so?

 

[zab]

You are right, however, why do you assume all who are hard up and are in poor circumstances do not do their best to love and support their neighbor in what ever way they are able?
Peace, Carlan

Why do you assume that of me? Did I not say that some of the most charitable people are those who share what little they have with those who have even less?

 

[Carlan]

Why do you assume that of me? Did I not say that some of the most charitable people are those who share what little they have with those who have even less?

Opps! forgive me Zab, I do tend to jump ahead, not good. Peace, Carlan

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Why do those on the Left assume that the well off do not do so?

Why is it some of us would divide us on this issue? I discuss what I believe to be a teaching of Christ and you call it the ‘left’? I got news for you, not everything is a partisan discussion for some of us. There is the ‘right’…thing to do, according to His commandments.