Wealthy people must embrace 'logic of giving,' Pope tells Sunday audience

[Prodigal_Son1]

Just because government powers can be exercised for good does not eliminate the limitation of those powers.

For example, we can use to create laws against murder but we certainly cannot use it to legislate mandatory conversion into of our religion. That is flying smack in the face of what Constantine did for us.

We’re not trying to convert through legislation.

Flying smack in our faces today is the call from the bishops, our prelates, that governments must continue to assist in the problem. I agree with them.

Here’s an older article from 2010.

Pope, church leaders call for guaranteed health care for all people

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – Pope Benedict XVI and other church leaders said it was the moral responsibility of nations to guarantee access to health care for all of their citizens, regardless of social and economic status or their ability to pay.

The pope’s message was read by Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, Vatican secretary of state, to participants at the 25th International Conference of the Pontifical Council for Health Care Ministry at the Vatican Nov. 18-19.

…

In his own written statement, Cardinal Bertone had strong words in support of the need for governments to take care of all citizens, especially children, the elderly, the poor and immigrants.

Governments are obligated, therefore, to adopt the proper legislative, administrative and financial measures to provide such care along with other basic conditions that promote good health, such as food security, water and housing, the cardinal said.

 

[Carlan]

We’re not trying to convert through legislation.

Flying smack in our faces today is the call from the bishops, our prelates, that governments must continue to assist in the problem. I agree with them.

Here’s an older article from 2010.

Pope, church leaders call for guaranteed health care for all people

The pope’s message was read by Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, Vatican secretary of state, to participants at the 25th International Conference of the Pontifical Council for Health Care Ministry at the Vatican Nov. 18-19.

…

In his own written statement, Cardinal Bertone had strong words in support of the need for governments to take care of all citizens, especially children, the elderly, the poor and immigrants.

You are correct concerning your posts, I am simply not understanding some Christian brothers here .
The Catholic church’s mission comes from the words and actions of Jesus Christ.
He reached out to those living on the edge of society because they have as much value in God’s eyes as those living in the center with their power and comfort.
Pope Benedict proclaimed in Caritas in Veitate," If we love others with Charity the first of all we are just toward them…Justice is the primary way of charity."
Government by the people should always strive toward balance to serve all the people and how we treat the least amongst us become a measure of how well we honor our relationship with God.
If our government’s actions makes it difficult for all those in need, unemployed, returning war warriors, the elderly, the handicapped the citizen unable afford proper health care to simply live,then we are not loving our neighbors as much as we love ourselves.

uscatholic.org/church/2010/07/social-justice-same-socialism

None of us have all the answers, but I do know that what I have heard on these political threads this election year is deeply troubling. The current political systems to me are not good and the increasing ugliness and gridlock in government but mostly it is Christians who are allowing their fears to cloud their ability to lovee as Christ taught us to love.
Peace, Carlan

 

[pismopal]

But we can seek other moral justices with government? There’s a certain hypocrisy to that.

You are absolutely correct…considering the many immoral acts of government agencies and agents, including sometimes…too often… the POTUS, it is hypocrisy for the govenment to be the seeker and arbiter of moral justice. Don’t bother telling me that this wasn’t what you meant…I know by now that you would fully approve of the government being the arbiter of all justice…and succor…and food and health care and…

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You are absolutely correct…considering the many immoral acts of government agencies and agents, including sometimes…too often… the POTUS, it is hypocrisy for the govenment to be the seeker and arbiter of moral justice. Don’t bother telling me that this wasn’t what you meant…I know by now that you would fully approve of the government being the arbiter of all justice…and succor…and food and health care and…

I am really not interested in attacks towards each other, or ad hominem statements.

Christ commanded Charity, and His authoritative Church is teaching that governments are obligated…

 

[Swiss_Guy]

You are absolutely correct…considering the many immoral acts of government agencies and agents, including sometimes…too often… the POTUS, it is hypocrisy for the govenment to be the seeker and arbiter of moral justice. Don’t bother telling me that this wasn’t what you meant…I know by now that you would fully approve of the government being the arbiter of all justice…and succor…and food and health care and…

1. Rights must be religiously respected wherever they exist, and it is the duty of the public authority to prevent and to punish injury, and to protect every one in the possession of his own. Still, when there is question of defending the rights of individuals, the poor and badly off have a claim to especial consideration. The richer class have many ways of shielding themselves, and stand less in need of help from the State; whereas the mass of the poor have no resources of their own to fall back upon, and must chiefly depend upon the assistance of the State. And it is for this reason that wage-earners, since they mostly belong in the mass of the needy, should be specially cared for and protected by the government.

Rerum Novarum

Nobody is advocating for a welfare state. But even His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI called for the institution of public welfare systems to help out the poor in Caritas in Veritate, the same pope who mentions subsidiarity a billion times in the same Encyclical. There is a difference between government helping and government intruding.

 

[simple_soul]

This is an old trick. You are trying to take the moral high ground by suggesting that there is something wrong with my language. **Most reasonable people admit that they know or strongly suspect that there are people who are permenant wards of the state by virtue of their refusal to engage in activity which will help support themselves. These are people “on the dole”…and taking “handouts”. **This situation has been revealed over and over by the press and authorities whose job it is to prosecute fraud. They only touch the tip of the iceberg and most people are aware of it…perhaps not you or perhaps you approve. It does not seem to concern you that some take resources that are meant for the truly needy. It is this attitude that makes one question your way of helping the truly needy. Nothing I have said contradicts or disagrees with anything said by Church officials regarding the governments involvement in helping the truly needy…operative words “truly needy”. The weak part of the liberal approach to any problem seems to be the a tendency to discount human nature and the idea that citizens can always tighten their belts and do with less and less…but never the GOVENMENT.

From what I have seen and come to know about these people who, as you have stated here is something I would like to share an inside view on.

A lot of these people are what I would say products of their environment. What I mean by that is we are talking about a few generations of people who have lived dependent on the state. From what I have learned in getting to know these people, they would like a better life for themselves and their children. It is not so much that they refuse to engage in activias that would help them but more like they do not know or understand any other way of life. They would rather have a job verses having to find ways to earn extra income by doing something illegal. They just do not know or understand how to go about doing this and what it entails. They are literally like lost children who are just trying to find their way through a very corrupt world. So they try to do what they can on their own. The thing is there are not enough people, jobs or support systems in place to help them. There is just no one seemingly out there who genuinely cares about them besides those who just push through the paperwork for assistance for them. It is like the social workers themselves do not know how to help these people in any other capacity other than to push through paperwork. I really can not blame these people for being so dependent on system hand outs because the system we have is not working and I believe it is mostly because we are all so worried about ourselves and our rights. We keep complaining about the situation, and we look for things to complain about and blame, and never once look in the mirror and ask ourselves how am I to blame for this mess we are in. In stead of complaining and blaming I believe the whole problem would start rectifying it’s self if we would stop blaming and start asking how can I help.

 

[TrueLight]

ProdigalSon, good job on the thread.

I’m not going to say there aren’t problems with the welfare system, but I cannot for the life of me understand when people say, “the government is not supposed to provide charity, people are.” Then they go on to say that Catholic charities are the largest providers of health.

How many of those people are actually contributing to charities?

How does one disconnect so much that there is no compassion at all for those who are
suffering no matter the reason. We are not all perfect and we don’t all make perfect decisions.

Sometimes I pass by some Protestant churches that are giving out cans of food, rice and other non-perishable items. The lines sometimes go around the block. In a lot of cases, the money comes from government programs. The Church may be too small to be able to adequately provide, but with the help of these programs they are able to provide in that neighborhood.

Another program I think about is the WIC program, a program that provides healthy foods for pregnant women and then for the children from infancy to early childhood. The participants are restricted in the types of foods they are allowed to buy. How many parents would be able to buy milk, cereal, beans and cheese and kids for their kids without it?

Who would step up to help these mothers if their families don’t have the money to provide the support either?

Maybe some of you are a lot more optimistic about human nature. I tend to be cynical. If there weren’t these types of government programs, how many people would be really generous in their giving. Enough to make a difference?

 

[zab]

ProdigalSon, good job on the thread.

I’m not going to say there aren’t problems with the welfare system, but I cannot for the life of me understand when people say, “the government is not supposed to provide charity, people are.” Then they go on to say that Catholic charities are the largest providers of health.

How many of those people are actually contributing to charities?

How does one disconnect so much that there is no compassion at all for those who are
suffering no matter the reason. We are not all perfect and we don’t all make perfect decisions.

Sometimes I pass by some Protestant churches that are giving out cans of food, rice and other non-perishable items. The lines sometimes go around the block. In a lot of cases, the money comes from government programs. The Church may be too small to be able to adequately provide, but with the help of these programs they are able to provide in that neighborhood.

Another program I think about is the WIC program, a program that provides healthy foods for pregnant women and then for the children from infancy to early childhood. The participants are restricted in the types of foods they are allowed to buy. How many parents would be able to buy milk, cereal, beans and cheese and kids for their kids without it?

Who would step up to help these mothers if their families don’t have the money to provide the support either?

Maybe some of you are a lot more optimistic about human nature. I tend to be cynical. If there weren’t these types of government programs, how many people would be really generous in their giving. Enough to make a difference?

Well that is a loaded post but I will try to answer some of your questions. First of all, did anyone actually condemn all government assistance programs on this thread? You ask how many of those people who criticise the problems associated with these government programs actually give to charities. Let’s not go there…
Another thing that I want to add is that some of the most critical people against the abuse of government programs are hard working people who are struggling to get by and see people abusing the food stamps program. My daughter who works in a grocery store sees it all of the time. I agree with you about the WIC program. I have heard good things about it.
Our local St. Vincent de Paul thrift store and food bank and assistance is a very successful organization, providing affordable clothing and items, jobs, and assisting many people locally whether it be with providing a monthly food package, assisting with paying utilities and rent, women’s shelter, putting someone up in a motel and so on. At one time, there was even a program teaching people including women how to make some furniture like chests of drawers. They couldn’t do this without the support of many people who contribute monitarily and volunteer their time and talents. And there are many people who give canned food and non-perishable items every week for the food bank. St. Vincent volunteers collect it every week. There are also other food banks in town and a men’s shelter that is run by Catholic Community Services. We also have several groups at our church including the Mother’s Group and Martha Ministries who assist with various charitable things such as providing gifts and meals when needed. There is a lot that people can do to provide charity for those in need. I am not saying that the government should not contribute to the poor of this country. But like Swiss Guy put it, "There is a difference between government helping and government intruding. "

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Well that is a loaded post but I will try to answer some of your questions. First of all, did anyone actually condemn all government assistance programs on this thread? You ask how many of those people who criticise the problems associated with these government programs actually give to charities. Let’s not go there…
Another thing that I want to add is that some of the most critical people against the abuse of government programs are hard working people who are struggling to get by and see people abusing the food stamps program. My daughter who works in a grocery store sees it all of the time. I agree with you about the WIC program. I have heard good things about it.
Our local St. Vincent de Paul thrift store and food bank and assistance is a very successful organization, providing affordable clothing and items, jobs, and assisting many people locally whether it be with providing a monthly food package, assisting with paying utilities and rent, women’s shelter, putting someone up in a motel and so on. At one time, there was even a program teaching people including women how to make some furniture like chests of drawers. They couldn’t do this without the support of many people who contribute monitarily and volunteer their time and talents. And there are many people who give canned food and non-perishable items every week for the food bank. St. Vincent volunteers collect it every week. There are also other food banks in town and a men’s shelter that is run by Catholic Community Services. We also have several groups at our church including the Mother’s Group and Martha Ministries who assist with various charitable things such as providing gifts and meals when needed. There is a lot that people can do to provide charity for those in need. I am not saying that the government should not contribute to the poor of this country. But like Swiss Guy put it, "There is a difference between government helping and government intruding. "

How can someone working in a grocery store see food stamp abuse? They are supposed to be used to buy food only; and if I’m not mistaken, aren’t stores held accountable for exactly what they are used for?

Just as anyone would be foolish to say, ‘there is no abuse to the ‘systems’’, one also has to realize that not everyone eligible takes advantages of ‘systems’ in place. I work on an ambulance and often see poverty first hand. Some of those work, barely getting by and without assistance. I also see people who cannot work, for various reasons like age, or disabilities. Then there are those who seem to be abusing certain systems. We cannot look at an individual, or group of individuals, and generalize. From what I can tell, those in need out number those that abuse. Again, we cannot generalize because demographics could be different in different areas.

What I think would be a travesty would be to one needy fall between the cracks because of those who abuse. I live in Florida and while I disagree with our governor on some things, I agree with his requirement of drug testing to qualify for certain programs. Even with my agreement, I don’t think you could just cut someone for an abuse you discover through the testing. They may need a hand up from that situation, and then help until they could be more self reliant. I believe that’s how Christ would want us to deal with all people.

 

[zab]

Unlike Warren Buffet who challenged Bill Gates to fight poverty by urging him to donate millions of his dollars toward programs that focused on population control, and that supplied contraception and abortion services, Our Holy Father makes his appeal to the very wealthy in a way that is more pleasing to God, the creator of us all. I believe that many of the poor and those not so wealthy have come to understand the “logic of giving” perhaps even more so than some of the very wealthy whom Our Holy Father is now addressing. We all need to “take a step” in examining our giving or tithing every year at our church. For the very wealthy, that 5% to the parish and 5% to other charities can amount to a very large sum of money to part with. Our own consciences should determine whether or not we are able or should increase our amount of charitable giving.
I just want to say that we have a very wealthy member of our parish who has contributed so much to our parish and our community. She is now a widow and still continues with her generocity of supporting our parish and school and she is always happy and willing to assist whenever called upon. It would be a shame for us not-so-wealthy to not contribute our fair share to any of our fund raising endeavors, such as building a new school or renovating the church, and the continuing support of the church and school because so-and-so can afford it more than me. I believe that the success of our parish is largely due to the sacrifices of us all. And the same is true for our society as well. We all need to do our fair share.

 

[pismopal]

From what I have seen and come to know about these people who, as you have stated here is something I would like to share an inside view on.

A lot of these people are what I would say products of their environment. What I mean by that is we are talking about a few generations of people who have lived dependent on the state. From what I have learned in getting to know these people, they would like a better life for themselves and their children. It is not so much that they refuse to engage in activias that would help them but more like they do not know or understand any other way of life. They would rather have a job verses having to find ways to earn extra income by doing something illegal. They just do not know or understand how to go about doing this and what it entails. They are literally like lost children who are just trying to find their way through a very corrupt world. So they try to do what they can on their own. The thing is there are not enough people, jobs or support systems in place to help them. There is just no one seemingly out there who genuinely cares about them besides those who just push through the paperwork for assistance for them. It is like the social workers themselves do not know how to help these people in any other capacity other than to push through paperwork. I really can not blame these people for being so dependent on system hand outs because the system we have is not working and I believe it is mostly because we are all so worried about ourselves and our rights. We keep complaining about the situation, and we look for things to complain about and blame, and never once look in the mirror and ask ourselves how am I to blame for this mess we are in. In stead of complaining and blaming I believe the whole problem would start rectifying it’s self if we would stop blaming and start asking how can I help.

I left home when I was 17 years old and have been financially and morally responsible for myself since then. I was a high school drop out and as such needed to make myself more marketable with education and a good working reputation. I married a young woman when I was 20 years old and we had 5 wonderful children in pretty close order. We worked as hard as a 24 hour day would permit…both of us. I will not list the things that we elected to do without because we could not afford it but the things we did do were essentials and I cannot say we were deprived…we had and have a happy life. I did not come from a classic happy family background…we had things to overcome, many people do but one thing I have never asked for and did not want is my neighbors chipping in their hard earned money so that I could raise my families income level. We have and do believe that we are responsible for charity to help those less fortunate but we also cringe at the idea that the government has taxed us so heavilly all these years so that IT could decide who were the needy who would take the money earned by others. But I think the thing that hurts the most is when someone who is holier than thou decides that because we have these ideas that we are greedy and selfish people who do not care for others…that we are conservative because we don’t follow Christ’s admonitions to care for others. Parents who do not buy their children everything they want but expect them to learn how to earn and work are not bad parents…they are generally good parents whose children…usually grow up to be great citizens who are able care for themselves…baring misfortune…like every one of my children…thank God. Now I have that out of my craw, I am through reading the judgements of someone who does not know me insinuate that I don’t care about others or that I am not a good Catholic because of my values which were acquired during a lifetime of experience.Have a nice day!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I left home when I was 17 years old and have been financially and morally responsible for myself since then. I was a high school drop out and as such needed to make myself more marketable with education and a good working reputation. I married a young woman when I was 20 years old and we had 5 wonderful children in pretty close order. We worked as hard as a 24 hour day would permit…both of us. I will not list the things that we elected to do without because we could not afford it but the things we did do were essentials and I cannot say we were deprived…we had and have a happy life. I did not come from a classic happy family background…we had things to overcome, many people do but one thing I have never asked for and did not want is my neighbors chipping in their hard earned money so that I could raise my families income level. We have and do believe that we are responsible for charity to help those less fortunate but we also cringe at the idea that the government has taxed us so heavilly all these years so that IT could decide who were the needy who would take the money earned by others. But I think the thing that hurts the most is when someone who is holier than thou decides that because we have these ideas that we are greedy and selfish people who do not care for others…that we are conservative because we don’t follow Christ’s admonitions to care for others. Parents who do not buy their children everything they want but expect them to learn how to earn and work are not bad parents…they are generally good parents whose children…usually grow up to be great citizens who are able care for themselves…baring misfortune…like every one of my children…thank God. Now I have that out of my craw, I am through reading the judgements of someone who does not know me insinuate that I don’t care about others or that I am not a good Catholic because of my values which were acquired during a lifetime of experience.Have a nice day!

Our backgrounds are very, very similar; dropout, married at 20, self sufficient, work 24 and 48 hour shifts, values acquired during a lifetime of experience, etc. We were blessed. Not everyone was, or is, blessed the same.

Through the giving you’ve done, you are admitting others that are in need. I was trying to show you that the men of the Church do not exclude government assistance. Government does get money from our taxes. I am more than happy that part of those taxes goes towards the well being of others, especially in light of the fact that part of them go towards armament, wars, death penalty, high salaried politicians, etc.

No one said you were not a good Catholic, or insinuated anything directed personally towards you. I, and others, questioned your language when describing those that needed, or received, assistance. You would have to admit there were some very cynical descriptions used.

Through reading judgements? Like, ‘I know by now that you would fully approve of the government being the arbiter of all justice…and succor…and food and health care and…’? I apologize if I posted anything similar that you interpreted as ‘judgmental’, it was not my intent. Through the written communication it can be difficult to express one’ self clearly, without body language, voice inflections, etc.

 

[starshiptrooper]

LD, my politics are not left wing, I am a centrist,and I certainly do believe most Americans are very generous in their charitable giving ,I also understand many resent very much their taxes going to social programs and consider it forced charity and stealing, but taking dollars for corporations, nuclear weapons, capital punishment and war is not forced immorality and murder?

Peace, Carlan

Taking money for corporations is wrong. But those nukes are one of the few things standing between you, me, and the savages who hate us and our freedom.

Capital punishment is necessary to society, and it cannot be murder because murder is illegal homicide with malicious intent.

As for the War in Iraq, do you really have problems with freeing people from a dictator?

 

[stinkcat_14]

Self interest?

Is that what you would call the guy clocking in 9-5 just so he could send his kids to school?

Is that what you call the girl working overtime so she could pay the bills?

Is that what you would call working parents having to struggle with horrible taxes?

If that is being self-interested then count me in among those greedy and ambitious job seekers.

Where did I suggest self interest was bad? All I said was that it is not the same as charity.

From my experience, there is nothing you can give when you don’t give it to yourself first. Ever heard of a free lunch? It doesn’t exist.

However true charity means we give outside of our self interest. If all we need is self interest then the market will take care of everything.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

We’re not trying to convert through legislation.

Irrelevant. My point was government powers have their limits. We cannot just use them to legislate laws on behalf of our beliefs.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Irrelevant. My point was government powers have their limits. We cannot just use them to legislate laws on behalf of our beliefs.

And when we have the authoritative men of the Church calling on governments being obligated to help the poor, what should we do?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

And when we have the authoritative men of the Church calling on governments being obligated to help the poor, what should we do?

Inform the authoritative a little more on the limitations on government power.

What? You didn’t think bishops were infallible now were you? Last time I checked, even the College of Cardinals is capable of its own collective errors. coughsBorgiacoughs

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Taking money for corporations is wrong. But those nukes are one of the few things standing between you, me, and the savages who hate us and our freedom.

How many nukes does a country need to protect themselves?

Those nukes are protecting those corporations, thus allowing them to make profits, but we shouldn’t look to them to pay?

Capital punishment is necessary to society, and it cannot be murder because murder is illegal homicide with malicious intent.

The Catholic support is not for blanket approval of capital punishment. It is something to be used ONLY when there is no other option to protect society. What are we supposed to think of the authoritative men of the Church calling for an end to capital punishment? Do we follow our spiritual leaders, or our secular leaders?

As for the War in Iraq, do you really have problems with freeing people from a dictator?

What about North Korea? You do realize there are many countries under the rule of cruel dictators?

Also, can we address the topic of the thread before starting up several other subjects of discussion?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Inform the authoritative a little more on the limitations on government power.

What? You didn’t think bishops were infallible now were you? Last time I checked, even the College of Cardinals is capable of its own collective errors. coughsBorgiacoughs

Did you miss the link and post from the Pope? Also, do we ignore all teachings that are not infallibly defined?

See this post.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Did you miss the link and post from the Pope? Also, do we ignore all teachings that are not infallibly defined?

See this post.

All I’m saying is that we need to inform those decisions beyond just simply saying “because the Pope” says so.

Look, it took my entire Theology class WEEKS to cover the whole of Catholic Social Teaching. What makes you think “leave it up” to government is the final conclusion of such studies?