Wealthy people must embrace 'logic of giving,' Pope tells Sunday audience

[Carlan]

Why do those on the Left assume that the well off do not do so?

LD, my politics are not left wing, I am a centrist,and I certainly do believe most Americans are very generous in their charitable giving ,I also understand many resent very much their taxes going to social programs and consider it forced charity and stealing, but taking dollars for corporations, nuclear weapons, capital punishment and war is not forced immorality and murder?

Peace, Carlan

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

LD, my politics are not left wing, I am a centrist,and I certainly do believe most Americans are very generous in their charitable giving ,I also understand many resent very much their taxes going to social programs and consider it forced charity and stealing, but taking dollars for corporations, nuclear weapons, capital punishment and war is not forced immorality and murder?

Peace, Carlan

Excellent points Carlan.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Why is it some of us would divide us on this issue? I discuss what I believe to be a teaching of Christ and you call it the ‘left’? I got news for you, not everything is a partisan discussion for some of us. There is the ‘right’…thing to do, according to His commandments.

Wasn’t aimed at you, my friend.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Why is it some of us would divide us on this issue? I discuss what I believe to be a teaching of Christ and you call it the ‘left’? I got news for you, not everything is a partisan discussion for some of us. There is the ‘right’…thing to do, according to His commandments.

On here, the discussion is more about what works.

Government does not help the poor, whether it’s domestic welfare programs or foreign aid.All government is pick losers and winners and makes a few arm-chair Catholics of the corporal works of mercy feel better inside about re-electing it.

The “war on poverty” has cost us over 6 trillion dollars since LBJ and poverty overall has gone up.

Foreign aid to places like Haiti and Africa have made their conditions worse, because the mighty and powerful take the money once its there and they know we aren’t coming.

Do you have any idea, ProdigalSon, the amount of damage the quest for good feelings and positive nervous system impluses have done?

To quote Limbaugh, a lot of people who see a homeless guy sitting on the dumpster will just feel bad, and that’s it! They’ve done their duty to king and country and now its time to get government to take from someone else they judge to be “well-off” and give to that sap, even if he blows it all on drugs and booze!

If you are interested in results, which may indeed conflict with someone’s feelings, then you will do what you can with what you have ownership over and leave the rest to God.

Jesus did not go to Rome and demand that Caeser redistribute wealth.

 

[SuperLuigi]

So, until the strong economy is established what do you propose we do for those that need assistance now?

Establish the strong economy:

1. Repeal ObamaCare
2. Repeal Sarbannes-Oxley
3. Cut out subsidies for multi-million dollar revenue PBS shows and millionare farmers
4. Approve the Keystone Pipeline
5. Repeal Dodd-Frank

 

[SuperLuigi]

The Democrats are still hung up on the idea that tax is the same thing as charity and do they ever love “charity”.

Tax is anti-charity and anti-business, especially when you tax capital and labour.

Whether the left and self-proclaimed “moderates” and “centrists” admit it, we’ve already got data that shows when you get the federal government off the backs of the people, lower the tax rates and stay out of the way of the private sector, you have a good economy that people are confident in and then are more willing to give.

Government and private charity are direct competitors and if things keep going as they are, private charity will be no more and all we will have is government.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Wasn’t aimed at you, my friend.

I apologize if I misread it. There are those that go to any discussion for what seems to be the purpose of arguing. Not everything is political. Christ and the Church are not partisan. There maybe partisan issues that correlate, but not all issues are supported by a single party.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I apologize if I misread it. There are those that go to any discussion for what seems to be the purpose of arguing. Not everything is political. Christ and the Church are not partisan. There maybe partisan issues that correlate, but not all issues are supported by a single party.

If you are talking about government, it’s always political.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

On here, the discussion is more about what works.

Government does not help the poor, whether it’s domestic welfare programs or foreign aid.All government is pick losers and winners and makes a few arm-chair Catholics of the corporal works of mercy feel better inside about re-electing it.

The “war on poverty” has cost us over 6 trillion dollars since LBJ and poverty overall has gone up.

Foreign aid to places like Haiti and Africa have made their conditions worse, because the mighty and powerful take the money once its there and they know we aren’t coming.

Do you have any idea, ProdigalSon, the amount of damage the quest for good feelings and positive nervous system impluses have done?

To quote Limbaugh, a lot of people who see a homeless guy sitting on the dumpster will just feel bad, and that’s it! They’ve done their duty to king and country and now its time to get government to take from someone else they judge to be “well-off” and give to that sap, even if he blows it all on drugs and booze!

If you are interested in results, which may indeed conflict with someone’s feelings, then you will do what you can with what you have ownership over and leave the rest to God.

Jesus did not go to Rome and demand that Caeser redistribute wealth.

I can’t imagine myself trying to explain to the Lord that I couldn’t see how government could help those in poverty, even though the authoritative men of the Church said it was necessary. Hang on a minute Lord, gonna quote some Limbaugh for you.

But you know Lord, I didn’t complain when they took my taxes to build nuclear weapons, impose the death penalty, etc.

While those trillions of dollars went to poverty, how many trillions of dollars in profit did some make in the very same country? Oh wait, we can’t force morality on them, but we can force morality on other issues? There’s a bit of hypocrisy in that argument…

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

If you are talking about government, it’s always political.

Oh, I thought ‘we the people’ were the government in the US. My mistake, I thought that most of ‘we the people’ were Christians.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Establish the strong economy:

1. Repeal ObamaCare
2. Repeal Sarbannes-Oxley
3. Cut out subsidies for multi-million dollar revenue PBS shows and millionare farmers
4. Approve the Keystone Pipeline
5. Repeal Dodd-Frank

Stop the millionaire farmers, and social programs, and take care of the millionaire oil companies. Did I get that right?

 

[SuperLuigi]

=Prodigal Son1;9928477]I can’t imagine myself trying to explain to the Lord that I couldn’t see how government could help those in poverty, even though the authoritative men of the Church said it was necessary.

Government is the easy way out for a lot of people who beat the drum of helping the “poor”.

They think if they vote a certain way and pay a few taxes, they’ve done their part!

That’s what irks me, and the evasion of answering my questions on here by other users suggests to me that they have a foot or more behind that door.

What’s funny is that a lot folks try and wrap their brain around it because they themselves get subsidies or like something fun (football, anyone?) that does.

That’s what you’ll never hear about on here or anywhere else. It’s the elephant in the room, why we are 16*10^12 in debt and most people know it.

That’s why they get defensive and start calling names, run to moderators or even get violent.

My impression from Scripture is God would ask what one did with his/her OWN possessions before worrying about what his/her neighbor did. The power of God is still kinda scary for me because I’ve screwed up, but I really wonder sometimes what people are going to say when and if they get called out on it.

Hang on a minute Lord, gonna quote some Limbaugh for you.

I would! Stuff like that might just save you some time in purgatory! But if you’d rather carry the water for the left even to the last of days, well, that’s what they call pride, my friend.

But you know Lord, I didn’t complain when they took my taxes to build nuclear weapons, impose the death penalty, etc.

Actually, I oppose the death penalty and it’s a good thing we nukes or some of us might’ve already had our molecules blown away by now.

You should see some of the comments I’ve gotten over the years for trying to keep child rapists, murderers of families and cop-killers off death row.

While those trillions of dollars went to poverty, how many trillions of dollars in profit did some make in the very same country?

Hard to say, but I’m glad they did because it provided jobs for people who gave a lot to others.

A lot of companies are very socially conscience, even to a fault.

There’s always room for improvement here but it should always be done by the individual, not government.

Oh wait, we can’t force morality on them,

That’s correct! Welcome to the Constitutional Republic!

but we can force morality on other issues? There’s a bit of hypocrisy in that argument…

Very good! And the ultimate remedy is to let the states decide those issues!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Very good! And the ultimate remedy is to let the states decide those issues!

You narrowed down the discussion, against those agreeing with the bishops that government needs to be involved with helping the poverty stricken. That’s the type tactic often seen on these forums to try and frustrate the opposing view.

No one has excluded the personal giving outside of government. As noted by the bishops, the problem is much larger than the Church alone can handle. If the Church sees government assistance as necessary, then evidently the personal giving outside the Church is not having an effect on the problem.

Christ’s teachings and messages are clear enough we don’t need to look to people like Limbaugh for moral instruction. If we need more than what Christ taught, the bishops have spoken on the issue.

Your spin of those arguing in favor of social programs are receivers themselves is false in my case. I don’t receive any subsidies.

No one has called names, or ran to the moderators, as far I know. Where did that comment even come from?

Now, let the states decide? I’d rather make decisions based on what He taught and commanded. The states are the United States, or supposed to be, but it seems to be another litigious approach on how to deliver on what Christ asked of us. It’s not that hard. Christ did not mean it to be that hard. We can make litigious decisions, or we can decide with our hearts what is right. My heart tells me it’s more right to have our government share my taxes with the poor than to buy more nuclear weapons, finance more wars, impose the death penalty, pay politicians and give them outrageous benefits for life.

The justice Christ preached was not for the wealthy.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

These discussions remind me of the ‘is this a sin’ threads. God’s law is written on our hearts. It’s supported by more than just a feeling. It’s supported by gifts of the Holy Spirit, through intellect, knowledge, understanding, and counsel. We can look within ourselves and know what is right and what is wrong.

One should give of themselves, in time, energy and materially. That is not limited in anyway, including the ability to give through our government. Just as we try and influence politicians for other moral reasons, we most certainly can try to influence them in all moral reasons, including feeding the hungry, giving shelter to the poor, caring for the sick, etc.

Please show me where Christ said, 'judge them worthy and feed them, clothe them, give them shelter, care for them when they’re sick, and visit those imprisoned. We accept them at their word. If they’re doing wrong, Christ is our judge.

 

[pismopal]

Then where does that place the bishops stating, ‘In addition to this important work, government “must continue to play its part as well?’

We’re supposed to set aside personal position to elect the candidate that will provide the most moral support, according to His teachings/principles, unless it comes to taking our taxes?

Now, we both differ on how to achieve help for the poverty stricken and I asked what do we do until a strong economy has been established? Instead of answering that you immediately went off about ‘handouts’, ‘people on the dole’, ‘how efficient our tax money is being used’, and ‘robbery’. It’s language like that that makes one question the ‘other way to help the poverty stricken’?

Christ did not teach, ‘everyone for themselves’. He never insinuated anything like that.

This is an old trick. You are trying to take the moral high ground by suggesting that there is something wrong with my language. Most reasonable people admit that they know or strongly suspect that there are people who are permenant wards of the state by virtue of their refusal to engage in activity which will help support themselves. These are people “on the dole”…and taking “handouts”. This situation has been revealed over and over by the press and authorities whose job it is to prosecute fraud. They only touch the tip of the iceberg and most people are aware of it…perhaps not you or perhaps you approve. It does not seem to concern you that some take resources that are meant for the truly needy. It is this attitude that makes one question your way of helping the truly needy. Nothing I have said contradicts or disagrees with anything said by Church officials regarding the governments involvement in helping the truly needy…operative words “truly needy”. The weak part of the liberal approach to any problem seems to be the a tendency to discount human nature and the idea that citizens can always tighten their belts and do with less and less…but never the GOVENMENT.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

This is an old trick. You are trying to take the moral high ground by suggesting that there is something wrong with my language. Most reasonable people admit that they know or strongly suspect that there are people who are permenant wards of the state by virtue of their refusal to engage in activity which will help support themselves. These are people “on the dole”…and taking “handouts”. This situation has been revealed over and over by the press and authorities whose job it is to prosecute fraud. They only touch the tip of the iceberg and most people are aware of it…perhaps not you or perhaps you approve. It does not seem to concern you that some take resources that are meant for the truly needy. It is this attitude that makes one question your way of helping the truly needy. Nothing I have said contradicts or disagrees with anything said by Church officials regarding the governments involvement in helping the truly needy…operative words “truly needy”. The weak part of the liberal approach to any problem seems to be the a tendency to discount human nature and the idea that citizens can always tighten their belts and do with less and less…but never the GOVENMENT.

There are people who abuse any system. What is lacking in your language is any acknowledgment of people who are not abusing the system and truly in need.

It’s not a liberal, or conservative, issue for me. It is the commands of Christ, and the call of our bishops today.

 

[pismopal]

There are people who abuse any system. What is lacking in your language is any acknowledgment of people who are not abusing the system and truly in need.

It’s not a liberal, or conservative, issue for me. It is the commands of Christ, and the call of our bishops today.

Implicit in my posts is the acknowledgement that there are people truly in need…explicit in my posts is the same acknowlegement. You are either being stubborn or you need to read my posts again. .Christ commanded charity…not government management of available wealth.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Implicit in my posts is the acknowledgement that there are people truly in need…explicit in my posts is the same acknowlegement. You are either being stubborn or you need to read my posts again. .Christ commanded charity…not government management of available wealth.

But we can seek other moral justices with government? There’s a certain hypocrisy to that.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

But we can seek other moral justices with government? There’s a certain hypocrisy to that.

Just because government powers can be exercised for good does not eliminate the limitation of those powers.

For example, we can use them to create laws against murder but we certainly cannot use them to legislate mandatory conversion into of our religion. That is flying smack in the face of what Constantine did for us.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Just because government powers can be exercised for good does not eliminate the limitation of those powers.

For example, we can use to create laws against murder but we certainly cannot use it to legislate mandatory conversion into of our religion. That is flying smack in the face of what Constantine did for us.

We’re not trying to convert through legislation.

Flying smack in our faces today is the call from the bishops, our prelates, that governments must continue to assist in the problem. I agree with them.