Wealthy people must embrace 'logic of giving,' Pope tells Sunday audience

[Mar044]

it is easier for a poor man to get into heaven the a rich man, the sad part is the rich will claim to love god but strive to make more money then they can ever use or need.

romney makes how much and yet wants more and says he loved god, but other then giving 10 percent to his chuch that is required, what has he done…

if elected you will see him for what he truly is…a liar, that being said obama is no saint, and in the end it doesn’t matter who you vote for because i would think even jesus gave up on the futility of politics.

the danger lies when you think mans weath and human laws and leaders come before god or jesus.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

<<…going to work is not charity, it is something we do out of our own self interest. Going to work is good, but if that is all we do there is something wrong.>>

I believe going to work is a central part of charitable living, especially for parents. This activity provides the resources needed to sustain life and maintain a comfortable living. The right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are inalienable rights endowed to us by our Creator. So is the right to self-determination.

Those who work hard and succeed in business multiply the fruits of their labors by providing others with a variety of goods and services, and they also employ lots of people in the process. That gives others the benefit of good jobs that provide resources for their families as well.

This in not in opposition to the ‘logic of giving’ - it is the very essence of giving - manifested in real opportunities for people to grow and flourish.

Living a life of service through business is a very noble calling. Most wealthy people I know get it, and they are very charitable outside of their businesses as well.

 

[markomalley]

This is basically a restatement of the idea of gratuitousness that he introduced in his encyclical letter, Caritas in Veritate, a few years ago. From that document:

When both the logic of the market and the logic of the State come to an agreement that each will continue to exercise a monopoly over its respective area of influence, in the long term much is lost: solidarity in relations between citizens, participation and adherence, actions of gratuitousness, all of which stand in contrast with* giving in order to acquire* (the logic of exchange) and* giving through duty* (the logic of public obligation, imposed by State law). In order to defeat underdevelopment, action is required not only on improving exchange-based transactions and implanting public welfare structures, but above all on gradually* increasing openness, in a world context, to forms of economic activity marked by quotas of gratuitousness and communion*. The exclusively binary model of market-plus-State is corrosive of society, while economic forms based on solidarity, which find their natural home in civil society without being restricted to it, build up society. The market of gratuitousness does not exist, and attitudes of gratuitousness cannot be established by law. Yet both the market and politics need individuals who are open to reciprocal gift.
This encyclical is a very interesting read if you haven’t done so already. It goes far more in depth into the idea of gratuitousness than he could in a specific homily.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Charity is not something you’ll find an understanding of in stacks and stacks of documents. The Pope gave a homily on wealthy people embracing giving; and we have bishops that have stated the necessity is much larger than the Church and cannot exclude government. I’m sure that the bishops are not inviting the government to show up and assist at a soup kitchen. The ‘soup kitchen’ argument does not give fully as Christ commanded. Once they been fed, they need shelter, clothing, healing, and those things that give a dignity of life for all; or those things that are a genuine love of one another.

Christ’s message was very simple, ‘…love…give…’ His law is written on our hearts and can be applicable through common sense. It is not a commandment to go and be litigious, dissecting everything said and written so that one can ‘feel good about the way they give.’ The rich man, from the homily’ tried that and came away saddened, because he had many things he could not part with.

Based on Christ’s instructions, the Church in Acts tells us everyone sold what they had and each was given according to their need. Were these a guide to a real Christian government?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Once they been fed, they need shelter, clothing, healing, and those things that give a dignity of life for all; or those things that are a genuine love of one another.

Actually, unless you are hopelessly disabled, what everyone actually needs is a means to get those things for themselves. We are created in God’s image and the Bible commands us that we only reap what we have sown. Put those two together and it clearly shows we actually have the power to make something out of our lives. Sure we could use some help but unless we help ourselves too, that help won’t mean anything in the long run.

 

[scipio337]

Charity is not something you’ll find an understanding of in stacks and stacks of documents. The Pope gave a homily on wealthy people embracing giving; and we have bishops that have stated the necessity is much larger than the Church and cannot exclude government…

Source?

 

[Mar044]

Actually, unless you are hopelessly disabled, what everyone actually needs is a means to get those things for themselves. We are created in God’s image and the Bible commands us that we only reap what we have sown. Put those two together and it clearly shows we actually have the power to make something out of our lives. Sure we could use some help but unless we help ourselves too, that help won’t mean anything in the long run.

that is taken out of context, jesus tought giving and helping your fellow man when your down, a poor man who is taxed to death, and works two jobs and can can just pay rent and maybe eat sometimes is lazy?

tell me how 1800 a month for healthcare is affordable, nothing is handed to me in canada, im tired of misinformation of u.s. news saying how we are socialist healthcare and its bad.

i dont pay for 1000 for a mri or treatment in a er, if i have a child my kid wont cost 40k, why because i work and its deducted from my taxes, you pay taxes, everyone does, its not a handout.

jesus did tell a parible unrelated to actually working but about the servants and each given money and told to do something with it. but i dont see how being rich is gods will, the super rich dont work for the money like a worker in an office, they tell someone to do something like trade stock or whatever and then gain at someone expense.

i find it funny that romneys dad was on welfare, yet he attacks the very system that helped his family…

in the end im tired of people taking one point that jesus said and ignore the rest…that is what a hypocrite does, impose a view just to me what they say valid.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Source?

NY bishops say government, private charities should ease poverty

New York City, N.Y., Oct 3, 2012 / 02:03 am (CNA/EWTN News).- Church leaders in New York called for continued efforts by both government and private charities to address high levels of poverty while respecting the human dignity of the poor.

…

In addition to this important work, government “must continue to play its part as well,” they said.

…

“Government programs provide enormous support to poor Americans,” they noted. “In addition generous Americans contribute billions to charities each year.”

However, despite this generosity, “much more needs to be done” by both private charities and the government, they said.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Actually, unless you are hopelessly disabled, what everyone actually needs is a means to get those things for themselves. We are created in God’s image and the Bible commands us that we only reap what we have sown. Put those two together and it clearly shows we actually have the power to make something out of our lives. Sure we could use some help but unless we help ourselves too, that help won’t mean anything in the long run.

While you quoted a part of what I posted, you didn’t post my reflection of the early Church in Acts; where everyone sold all they had and each was given according to their need.

Christ didn’t qualify feeding the hungry, giving shelter, clothing, caring for the sick, or visiting the imprisoned based on anything. He said, ‘love one another as He loved us,’ and ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you.’ People remove themselves from a possible situation others find themselves in, and then attribute other people’s misfortunes to ‘laziness.’

We should be careful not to put ourselves in such a place of judging others. We don’t know individual life situations that places people where they are in life. Such giving might be the helping hand up from a situation.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

that is taken out of context, jesus tought giving and helping your fellow man when your down, a poor man who is taxed to death, and works two jobs and can can just pay rent and maybe eat sometimes is lazy?

tell me how 1800 a month for healthcare is affordable, nothing is handed to me in canada, im tired of misinformation of u.s. news saying how we are socialist healthcare and its bad.

i dont pay for 1000 for a mri or treatment in a er, if i have a child my kid wont cost 40k, why because i work and its deducted from my taxes, you pay taxes, everyone does, its not a handout.

jesus did tell a parible unrelated to actually working but about the servants and each given money and told to do something with it. but i dont see how being rich is gods will, the super rich dont work for the money like a worker in an office, they tell someone to do something like trade stock or whatever and then gain at someone expense.

i find it funny that romneys dad was on welfare, yet he attacks the very system that helped his family…

in the end im tired of people taking one point that jesus said and ignore the rest…that is what a hypocrite does, impose a view just to me what they say valid.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Great comments by the Holy Father!

Yes, no doubt it’s another excuse for you to check the D box.

I haven’t seen a non-question response for my question from you:

Why do you vote dem?

 

[SuperLuigi]

Charity is not something you’ll find an understanding of in stacks and stacks of documents. The Pope gave a homily on wealthy people embracing giving; and we have bishops that have stated the necessity is much larger than the Church and cannot exclude government. I’m sure that the bishops are not inviting the government to show up and assist at a soup kitchen. The ‘soup kitchen’ argument does not give fully as Christ commanded. Once they been fed, they need shelter, clothing, healing, and those things that give a dignity of life for all; or those things that are a genuine love of one another.

Christ’s message was very simple, ‘…love…give…’ His law is written on our hearts and can be applicable through common sense. It is not a commandment to go and be litigious, dissecting everything said and written so that one can ‘feel good about the way they give.’ The rich man, from the homily’ tried that and came away saddened, because he had many things he could not part with.

Based on Christ’s instructions, the Church in Acts tells us everyone sold what they had and each was given according to their need. Were these a guide to a real Christian government?

Including government in charity is largely a mistake if you want actual results.

It’s pretty clear to me that people who bleat the “help the poor” phrase on here and elsewhere don’t have it so bad themselves and think that checking the D box fulfills a good chunk if not all of what they need to do, even if it means destroying the country and killing the old and unborn.

It’s a lot more fun when you can play around with other people’s earnings, but Jesus was talking about giving of oneself, NOT taking from your neighbor to give to others. If the very poor (and in this country, I take the word “poor” with a big time grain of salt) see fit, they can under certain circumstances take without permission because in Catholic theology they have (dare I say it) a right to it.

It makes me wonder when Jesus said “the Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak” was also in reference to fighting those feelings of being popular in front of people who are different instead of committing grave evil to appease them.

As far as being rich goes:

If you make over $34,000 a year, you’re in the global 1%.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Actually, unless you are hopelessly disabled, what everyone actually needs is a means to get those things for themselves. We are created in God’s image and the Bible commands us that we only reap what we have sown. Put those two together and it clearly shows we actually have the power to make something out of our lives. Sure we could use some help but unless we help ourselves too, that help won’t mean anything in the long run.

The problem we have today is that more people are too dependent on hand-outs, not that we have so many poor and can’t do anything about it. Catholic teaching also specifies duties of parents to provide for their families and Jesus commands us to be our own masters.

It’s also the duty for civil government to make conditions ripe for a steady economy, and subsidizing Big Bird, wind farms, rich farmers in the supposedly conservative, “home-grown and nice” Midwest, ethanol and other things that are not fairly in the free market is hardly the means, especially when we have to borrow from China and future generations to do it.

Is that just? Spending someone else’s money via a political system that they have not yet consented to? Or is it only in abortion that the babies have no say?

I have little doubt this speech by the Pope is going to get some on here all excited about voting for certain politicians and that their decision is somehow justified, which of course means they’ll be presenting themselves in living colour for Communion with all of the good feelings of thinking they’ve helped.

Jesus tells us to give what we have, not what our neighbor has.

 

[pismopal]

Yes, no doubt it’s another excuse for you to check the D box.

I haven’t seen a non-question response for my question from you:

Why do you vote dem?

The Democrats are still hung up on the idea that tax is the same thing as charity and do they ever love “charity”.

 

[simple_soul]

Following this thread is making my head and heart ache.
It is my understanding that when there are injustices in society then the government has a moral duty to do what it needs to do to correct these injustices. Is this a correct understanding according to the Catholic Church’s teaching on social justice?

 

[Brendan]

Following this thread is making my head and heart ache.
It is my understanding that when there are injustices in society then the government has a moral duty to do what it needs to do to correct these injustices. Is this a correct understanding according to the Catholic Church’s teaching on social justice?

To a certain extent and in certain areas.

‘Justice’ in terms of the Church, is giving to one what they are entitled. An ‘injustice’ is not giving to one what they are entitled.

In certain situations, like the punishement due to crime, the State is the preferred authority to give to the accused the fair trial that they are due, and the punishment due to the guilty.

On the other hand, it is an injustice in a society if everyone is not giving to God the praise He is due. I think we can all agree that the State is not really the best authority for correcting that particular injustice.

In the case of charity, there is no intrisic injustice with one person having more material possesions than another. In correcting any actual material injustice, the State may be a solution, the Church might be another, and private charity might be a third. The Church recognizes that solutions to material Justice in this space is often a matter of prudential judgement than simply referring the matter to the State.

State solutions, being seperate from the Theological Virtue of Charity, and therefore lacking in Grace, are really to be avoided unless no other solution is possible.

The solution proposed by the Church is best articulated by St. John Chrysostom, Doctor of the Church

Should we look to kings and princes to put right the inequalities between rich and poor? Should we require soldiers to come and seize the rich person’s gold and distribute it among his destitute neighbors? Should we beg the emperor to impose a tax on the rich so great that it reduces them to the level of the poor and then to share the proceeds of that tax among everyone? Equality imposed by force would achieve nothing, and do much harm.

Those who combined both cruel hearts and sharp minds would soon find ways of making themselves rich again. Worse still, the rich whose gold was taken away would feel bitter and resentful; while the poor who received the gold form the hands of soldiers would feel no gratitude, because no generosity would have prompted the gift. Far from bringing moral benefit to society, it would actually do moral harm. Material justice cannot be accomplished by compulsion, a change of heart will not follow. The only way to achieve true justice is to change people’s hearts first — and then they will joyfully share their wealth

Any enforced giving, as St. John noted, brings about resentment on behalf of the giver, and a lack of gratitude on the part of the reciever. As such, it is really not a real solution at all.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

but i dont see how being rich is gods will, the super rich dont work for the money like a worker in an office, they tell someone to do something like trade stock or whatever and then gain at someone expense.

LOL! Sorry but my company targets those types. Your idea of what big cheeses do is no more ridiculous than how so-called Americans view your healthcare.

Being a DK is not an easy job. If their plan flops THEY’RE the ones everyone looks to. That’s the risk about being a leader. You don’t know everything but how to organize and put to use what other people know. (There’s a difference, if you take time to do your homework.)

While you quoted a part of what I posted, you didn’t post my reflection of the early Church in Acts; where everyone sold all they had and each was given according to their need.

Because anyone can take that and twist it into their political agenda, including communism, socialism, and yet these have been condemned by the Church just as much as unrestrained capitalism.

I was actually halfway through my response to that portion but decided to hold back until you yourself came clean with what you are implying.

People have different needs FYI. And as mankind continues to progress, you should realize the reality that our needs are only growing higher from that of an animal’s. You think the Amish are living the life? I find no purpose in their lifestyle and I doubt I am alone. People are called to different lifestyles. No doubt that’s one feature God made for us humans. If you think the Church in Acts is some mode for government, you need to take that into consideration.

Christ didn’t qualify feeding the hungry, giving shelter, clothing, caring for the sick, or visiting the imprisoned based on anything. He said, ‘love one another as He loved us,’ and ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you.’ People remove themselves from a possible situation others find themselves in, and then attribute other people’s misfortunes to ‘laziness.’

And why shouldn’t they? Sloth is a sin as much as greed. You make it sound as if it is impossible tell that a person has made bad decisions. The truth is you can find out if you take the time to look hard enough and maybe even just ask up front.

 

[Carlan]

Following this thread is making my head and heart ache.
It is my understanding that when there are injustices in society then the government has a moral duty to do what it needs to do to correct these injustices. Is this a correct understanding according to the Catholic Church’s teaching on social justice?

And mine also Simple Soul, How can we Catholics treat the poor, the widow, the old , the immagrant…as"expendable people" who have little or no dignity?
When did money become more important than human dignity?
All human life, regardless of stage of development, socioeconomic status, nationality,religious, race, political leaning,man or woman , is sacred , has dignity and is loved by God. We are all children of God…all flawed…all special…all possessing dignity…all loved by God.
God’ Kingdom has NO boundries.God’s love has no boundries.
God’s mercy on all the just and the right, God’s mercy has NO boundries.
We are all called to treat others as Christ would treat them. We are called to be merciful.

Social justice is not Socialism!!!
Peace, Carlan

 

[simple_soul]

To a certain extent and in certain areas.

‘Justice’ in terms of the Church, is giving to one what they are entitled. An ‘injustice’ is not giving to one what they are entitled.

In certain situations, like the punishement due to crime, the State is the preferred authority to give to the accused the fair trial that they are due, and the punishment due to the guilty.

On the other hand, it is an injustice in a society if everyone is not giving to God the praise He is due. I think we can all agree that the State is not really the best authority for correcting that particular injustice.

In the case of charity, there is no intrisic injustice with one person having more material possesions than another. In correcting any actual material injustice, the State may be a solution, the Church might be another, and private charity might be a third. The Church recognizes that solutions to material Justice in this space is often a matter of prudential judgement than simply referring the matter to the State.

State solutions, being seperate from the Theological Virtue of Charity, and therefore lacking in Grace, are really to be avoided unless no other solution is possible.

The solution proposed by the Church is best articulated by St. John Chrysostom, Doctor of the Church

*Unfortunately we are living in a time and age that the hardness of mankind’s heart is as about as hard as it was before Jesus came and I’m really beginning to believe that there is really no other solution. We live in a day and age that we are more of a dog-eat-dog kind of mentality verses a self giving or self sacrificing one. The more we depend on “government,” “catholic charities,” or the “rich” to start taking care of the problems instead of assuming and taking on the responsibility of taking care of these injustices ourselves the more we allow the government, churchs and rich to do it for us. It does no good to tell the government to back of if we are not willing to step up to the plate and open ourselves up to helping others more ourselves. Physically, mentally and spiritually. Not just by putting so much money on the collection plate or paying just the right amount of taxes. You know, I know of a family who is struggling much more than we are and they give more to church than we do. It is humiliating to say the least but I wish we all were more like that. No matter how “bad” we have it we are still willing to give from ourselves. *

Any enforced giving, as St. John noted, brings about resentment on behalf of the giver, and a lack of gratitude on the part of the reciever. As such, it is really not a real solution at all.

*I am also sure St. John had a lot to say about being a cheerful giver and how to not be resentful of others. I personally believe that the more we learn to be cheerful givers and learn how not to resent each other then the less government will have to “enforce the giving.”

You know, a lot of people are going to be bitter and resentful if abortion is made illegal. Does that meen we should stop working to try and enforce a society that does not allow abortion?*

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

It’s a lot more fun when you can play around with other people’s earnings, but Jesus was talking about giving of oneself, NOT taking from your neighbor to give to others. If the very poor (and in this country, I take the word “poor” with a big time grain of salt) see fit, they can under certain circumstances take without permission because in Catholic theology they have (dare I say it) a right to it.

I’m with you on how American’s define their ‘poor’. Seriously guys, you want poor? Head over here (or worse yet, India or Africa). I know you guys are panicking about your economy but it’s not like you’re Mexico just yet.

At least gasoline doesn’t eat up a majority of your average countryman’s salary.