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thomasf
Guest
So this will take the matter out of the Bishop’s hands and into the local priests if those priests want to do the traditional mass?
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Andreas_Hofer
Guest
The idea is not to take control entirely out of the bishop’s hands, but the move the balance of initiative more from the power to permit tot he power to prohibit - instead of being able to restrict the rite just because he doesn’t like it the bishop would have to point to a reason a particular priest or community should not be allowed it (for instance, being prone to dissent or disobedience).
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Uxor
Guest
I think you are opening a can of worms there…
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
In reality we do not know what this rumored document will do if it is ever released. All that we have is speculation.
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bear06
Guest
Know Your Mass is a good book to start with.
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Aramis
Guest
What it means (and if you check the Vatican II Post Concialiar documents for yourself, you can see it), that many of the changes in the liturgy are based in 300+ years of accumulated theological change in the Church that had yet to be reflected in the TLM.
Turning the priest around, for example, is a postural change based upon a different understanding of the role of the priest-as-symbol and priest-as-Christ’s Embodiment.
Allowing the use of Lay Ministers (Eucharistic and Lector), abolition of the subdeaconal ordination, common receipt under both species, and use of the vernacular are ALL theological change induced.
The symbolism is tied to theology; the vast differences in symbolism between the time of the council of Trent and the Vatican Councils are subtle and profound.
Theology (unlike dogma) is neither fixed nor absolute, but a living body of knowledge. It must change to adapt to both new understandings of the world (ie, science) and new instruction from the Magisterium (dogma, doctrine, and ritual).
Each pope, in his turn, has reshaped our Catholic theology.
Interesting to note this quote:
eurekastreet.com.au/article.aspx?aeid=2248
Theological change, aguably bad theological change, has driven the change to the NO liturgy. Not all accept the changes in the liturgy, not all accept that theology is a living and changing element of the church. It differs from Eastern Church to Western, within the Union.
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Swiss_Guard
Guest
The readings at the Dominican Mass didn’t match the readings of the St. Pius V Missal and both were approved rites in the Latin Church.
The Tridentine and Pauline rites can’t use the same lectionary because there is no lectionary in the Tridentine rite. There is only the missal. St. Pius V didn’t break up the Missal into lectionary and sacramentary.
According to Cardinal Bertone, the universal indult would grant permission to use the 1962 Missal published by Bl. John XXIII,
Since the Latin, Byzantine, and every other rite submits to the authority of the Roman Pontiff, we have the same readings since there is only one authority to interpret Sacred Scripture.
I hope the universal indult comes out soon and I hope it means the Tridentine Mass will spread as much as those who want the Mass eliminated fear it will. The only reason some people oppose the Tridentine Mass is because they want to make the Church in their own image and likeness rather than make themselves into the image and likeness of Christ through His Church.
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KathleenElsie
Guest
Our Bishop has refused all requests to have a Latin Traditional Mass. As it stands right now it is up to the Bishop only. Begging, praying and pleading has not worked for those of us that desire a licit Latin Mass.
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KathleenElsie
Guest
Praying hard it is true. But unfortunately I am not going to hold my breath. We have been disappointed tooooo many times.Happy days indeed!
Happy days are here again,
The skies above are clear again
Let us sing a song of cheer again –
Happy days are here again
All together, shout it now –
There’s no one who can doubt it now
So let’s tell the world about it now
Happy days are here again
Your cares and troubles are gone –
There’ll be no more from now on!
Happy days are here again,
The skies above are clear again
Let us sing a song of cheer again –
Happy days are here again
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Dee_Dee_King
Guest
excellent post aramis.
i think that we catholics can learn much from the east. i think this is one of the problems of western christianity, that it is prone to looking at the pope as the mouthpiece of God. he’s not an apostle. he doesn’t have the right to change things the way he sees fit, as if the pope defines everything about our faith from pontificate to pontificate. in reality, he’s subservient to the sacred deposit of tradition, and the liturgy. his role, as is every bishops, is to protect and discern the sacred deposit of faith which never changes. he’s a servant and center of unity in the church, not the creater and mc of the liturgy.
the east sees that the liturgy as more part of immutable tradition which can’t be made subject to a liturgical experts or the pope, and redefined every 20 years.
a good example of how much catholic theology changes is to look at the devotion to the sacred heart of Jesus which has been nearly abandoned after vii yet it has been the subject of papal encyclicals about its importance. now, we have the divine mecry chaplet in its place because of JPII the great.
compare pius xii encyclical on the liturgy to sacrosanctum concilium or john xxiii statement on the importance of latin. neoconservative catholics appear to think that the church only goes back to vii, and that all writings before that are abrogated. this is what i believe B16 identifies as the hermenuetic of discontinuity. in reality, the only way to interpret vii is in light of tradition.
i hope we soon have the traditional latin mass in anchorage.
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CatQuilt
Guest
A marvelous attitude! You’re right, it’s not a zero sum game, i.e. those who like the NO lose. The TLM will now hopefully be an option for those who desire it.
I’m 52. I haven’t attended a TLM in over 40+ years. Will I begin to attend on a regular basis now? I don’t know but it’s wonderful to have that option…
:grouphug:
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Aramis
Guest
Agreed, it should not be a Zero-Sum situation.
The strength of Catholicism is the diversity of 22 united churches, sharing the dogma and doctrine, but with separate theology, ritual, and practice.
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BobP123
Guest
72% Catholics don’t go to Church, much more in Europe, and you’re worried about zero sum games? Relax, the liturgical dancers won’t be on the unemployment lines April 9th, I’ll assure you.
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chrisb
Guest
Congradz Traditionalist! I hope it revives Roman Catholics to a renewed pursuit of the virtues.
Peace and God Bless.
Peace and God Bless.
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ACHAIA
Guest
The rumours are definitely true. There is a Vatican website that releases regular newsletters entitled “Zenit” where you can be updated with the latest from Rome and you may find this in detail from one of its recent publications.
I was told that it is simply a translation of the New Mass into the Latin. I was wondering whether it would mean that the Traditional Masses by SSPX and other traditional groups be in unison with Rome once again and that we could be free to go to these Masses? There was no mention of this in their newsletter though.
I was told that it is simply a translation of the New Mass into the Latin. I was wondering whether it would mean that the Traditional Masses by SSPX and other traditional groups be in unison with Rome once again and that we could be free to go to these Masses? There was no mention of this in their newsletter though.
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kleary
Guest
Because:
- The Papal Bull “Quo Primum Tempore” is believed to grant the universal permission for any priest to celebrate Mass according to the Traditional Roman Rite “in perpetuity” (forever). This is a sticky issue for reconciliation with the SSPX, whose bishops are excommunicated for being ordained without papal mandate (No Virginia, they are not schismatic for not following Vatican II). They insist that all priests have the right to celebrate Mass according to the Traditional Rite and all of the faithful have a right to attend it.
- Many bishops still forbid the use of the 1962 Missal in their Diocese, defying the late Pope John Paul II’s decree on its use.
- The Novus Ordo Mass - even when done reverently - according to Pope Benedict XVI - when he was a Cardinal - is “seriously deficient” in the expression of the Catholic faith.
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kleary
Guest
No… actually the “New Mass” you have is an English translation of the Roman Missal published in Rome. The language of the Mass is Latin and all translations come from that.
On a side note, you will also begin to see changes to the English version of the New Mass. The current ICEL English translation is horrible and very unfaithful to the Latin text published in the current Roman Missal. You can see this by looking at a hand missal of 1962 and comparing many of the prayers translated back then into English to the translation of today.
A few examples of the changes are below-
“And also with you” changed to the accurate translation of the Latin text
" et cum spiritu tuo" And with your spirit".
“We believe in one God” changed to the accurate translation of the Latin text - “Credo en unum Deum” - “I believe in one God”.
The Pope is hoping that this gesture on his behalf will help in reconciling the SSPX back to Rome. The SSPX bishops were excommunicated when the late archbishop Marcel Lefebvre ordained them without papal mandate. (Note they were not excummunicated for not accepting “Vatican II” - Lefebvre himself signed the documents of the Second Vatican Council).
Ken
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TNT
Guest
Umm, The SSPX is not in heresy nor has the Vatican & minions ever said so. It is seen as in an act of schism, but even that is because of its refusal to stay in communion with non-SSPX catholics & refusing submission on ordinations. The other definition of schism is what you said: Denial of any Papal authority over the whole Church.
Being disobedient to a pope but otherwise admitting he holds the Primacy of Peter as any other Catholic isn’t heresy. Actually it’s more a contradiction. In any case:
They do NOT deny Papal Authority.
****If any SSPX member or attendee publicly held such a position, they’d be summarily dismissed.
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ACHAIA
Guest
Are you aware that St Pius V in 1571 decreed in the solemn Bull, Quo Primum, which he promulgated to the Catholic world, that the Latin “pristine” form of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the Roman Missal be observed by all everywhere “in perpetuity” - FOR ALL TIME. Never at any time was anything to be added, subtracted, or changed, nor was anyone to attempt to go contrary to his decree lest HE INCUR THE WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD AND OF HIS APOSTLES, SAINTS PETER AND PAUL.
Despite the great Anathema, the liturgy indeed was changed and doctrinal changes followed. All that was previously condemned by five Popes and called heretical are now now the new teachings which we are called to adhere - Ecumenism, Religious Liberty/Freedom, A good example would be this - According to the New Code of Canon Law, non-Catholics can under certain circumstances petition the “sacraments” from a Catholic priest (without the non-Catholic abjuring his heretical beliefs) and the priests are required to administer them. It was previously very strictly forbidden. These changes in both liturgical worship and teachings have allowed many parishes throughout the world through the actions of our beloved past Pope John Paul II (his participation in ecumencial religious services with non_Catholic and non-Christian religions) to follow likewise. These are new doctrines and we must be obedient to them. And there are many like examples. It is shocking to know that Protestant theologians helped bring about the changes for Vatican II.
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TNT
Guest
Ah, yes we are all, each and every one who regularly posts in this Forum, “perpetually” aware of all of that and perpetually told that…ESPECIALLY UXOR.
I did a search on Threads that have “Quo Primum” in the subject matter and got 86 Threads.
You are welcome to crank up yet another Thread on the matter, but understand it has been thrashed ad -u-no-what.
Sincerely,
Rad Rad Trad (RRT)
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