Well I guess the Rumors are True(Traditional Mass Back)

[St_Isidore]

Since the Latin, Byzantine, and every other rite submits to the authority of the Roman Pontiff, we have the same readings since there is only one authority to interpret Sacred Scripture.

I agree.

I hope the universal indult comes out soon and I hope it means the Tridentine Mass will spread as much as those who want the Mass eliminated fear it will.

As do I. It shall spread and their fear shall be realized.

The only reason some people oppose the Tridentine Mass is because they want to make the Church in their own image and likeness rather than make themselves into the image and likeness of Christ through His Church.

Well elucidated. This is another dilemma in which most of the modernist sect fail to admit.

 

[St_Isidore]

I did read through this article and I thought it totally demeaning and absurd - to even suggest that the Holy Spirit does not have anything to do with Liturgical changes. Its no wonder we have sacriligeous and blasphemous “messes” in most of the parishes. The discarding of the Latin Mass which offers the true sacrifice in all its purity and the introduction of the Norvus Odo service which is devoid of sacrifice in the true sense - the very fact that the words uttered by our Lord has been falsified in the Consecration "…which shall be shed for you and for ALL??? Did Jesus not say : "…which shall be shed for you and MANY???. This is sacriligeous as far as every true Catholic is concerned.

Excellent point. But know this, you will receive many explanations, even within the confines of this forum, as to how it may be ALL. Christ said MANY not ALL. I am confident that Jesus being divine, did not mistake his words. In continuance, if the words of consecration are altered, is the Eucharist effected? I think not.

 

[BobP123]

As I mentioned in the past, our parish priest is teaching us all the basic prayers in Latin and prays the consecration in Latin. I wouldn’t be surprised if he added a Tridentine Mass to our schedule. Like my wife and I, he grew up post-Vatican II. I’m not sure how that makes us free of “excess baggage,” but I know I yearn for more reverence in the Mass. I haven’t been to a Tridentine Mass (they haven’t been offered at any of the parishes, I’ve attended) or an Eastern Rite Liturgy, but both interest me. Our parish is quite different than the California, Colorado and Oregon parishes I attended in vestments, quiet prayer before Mass, etc. It makes a difference, IMHO.

The pre-Vatican II West people only knew one Mass. There was little difference between different churches. There was very little leeway in rubrics. WE TOOK ALL THAT FOR GRANTED. 80-90% of Catholics attended every Sunday and HolyDay.

The post Vatican II generation either like their Mass or stay away from it. Most stay away from it but that’s not the point. They haven’t really lost anything. They seem to have no difficulty accepting their bishop’s decisions on liturgical matters. That’s the way it’s always been for them.

And as far as morals go, cohabitation has always been ok, birth control is a matter of conscience, etc. Their consciences have been formed differently, without that scrupuolous “baggage-filled” pre-Vatican II conscience, at least that’s the way I see it.

That said, I believe the problems with the Paul VI Mass are in the abuses, not in the Mass itself. Perhaps, that is the “baggage,” we are missing out on.

Seems like the abuses, especially in the Canon of the Mass, were prevalent just before the Paul VI Novus Ordo. From what I remember, the Novus Ordo was supposed to correct all those abuses. You mean it didn’t?

 

[KathleenElsie]

I pray that the Mass will be available to all who desire it. In the case of those that want a reverent NO, Latin, Byzantine etc. we should all be able to go freely to the Mass that makes our Soul Sing to the Glory of God. As long as we all remain within the Holy Mother Church and continue to do so things will be good.

I also pray that everyone will go to a Full High Mass at least once in their lifetime. It makes my Soul glad and I come out with the fullness of the Holy Spirit. And in my opinion everyone should experience this Total Joy at the Mass they atend.

 

[BobP123]

Excellent point. But know this, you will receive many explanations, even within the confines of this forum, as to how it may be ALL. Christ said MANY not ALL. I am confident that Jesus being divine, did not mistake his words.

Not to mention poor rhetoric. (Why the “for you” when “for ALL” already covers “for you”?)

In continuance, if the words of consecration are altered, is the Eucharist effected? I think not.

I agree. Christ chose His words carefully. The ICEL did not know better than Christ.

And if we’re to extend that logic, much of Catholic theology changes if we were to change other pronouns Christ used. “Many are called, few are chosen,” for example.

ALL are not called and ALL are not chosen, regardless of your sample group.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The pre-Vatican II West people only knew one Mass. There was little difference between different churches. There was very little leeway in rubrics. WE TOOK ALL THAT FOR GRANTED. 80-90% of Catholics attended every Sunday and HolyDay.

This statement is not 100% accurate. As there were many rites, many religious orders had their own (which while resembling the TLM in many ways they were different), within the Latin Church. Also in some places there were indults in place for the TLM to be celebrated in the vernacualr.

 

[BobP123]

This statement is not 100% accurate. As there were many rites, many religious orders had their own (which while resembling the TLM in many ways they were different), within the Latin Church. Also in some places there were indults in place for the TLM to be celebrated in the vernacualr.

You got me.

 

[Aramis]

The use of the Dominican Rite at Holy Family Cathedral, Anchorage, both in Latin and in English continued throughout the 1970’s.

No longer a separate rite, it’ is now just a couple of differences from the normal NO. Little details like the facing of the processional cross, and the wearing of the amice. You’d miss it unless paying attention.

The DR in Latin was a pre-trent mass. Similar, yet different. Beautiful. Even/especially in the “private” form… (From one such mass came the Homily “John tells us that God loves us all. Go Therefore and do likewise!” -Rev. Fr. John Fearon, OP, of blessed memory)

And remember also: No pope is all-powerful; even the pope is subject to the grand synod’s decisions…

 

[St_Isidore]

Well, the translation is being brought back to a closer fidelity to the Latin, but this poor, deluded, and (I suppose) “false” Catholic apparently feels that it did not effect the consecration of the Most Precious Blood:

adoremus.org/Arinze_ProMultis.html

“2. There is no doubt whatsoever regarding the validity of Masses celebrated with the use of a duly approved formula containing a formula equivalent to “for all”, as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has already declared (cf. Sacra Congregatio pro Doctrina Fidei, Declaratio de sensu tribuendo adprobationi versionum formularum sacramentalium, 25 Ianuarii 1974, AAS 66 [1974], 661). Indeed, the formula “for all” would undoubtedly correspond to a correct interpretation of the Lord’s intention expressed in the text. It is a dogma of faith that Christ died on the Cross for all men and women (cf. John 11:52; 2 Corinthians 5,14-15; Titus 2,11; 1 John 2,2).”

His name is Francis Arinze. Head of some committee, works for a guy named Ratzinger. You should drop him a line (address it to “Frank,” I’ve heard he likes that), ask him where he gets off.

w.r.t your supplied link does point 4. suggest we return back to ‘many’ in those countries using ‘all’?

 

[BobP123]

w.r.t your supplied link does point 4. suggest we return back to ‘many’ in those countries using ‘all’?

Precisely. In this case validity may not be sufficient.

 

[TNT]

w.r.t your supplied link does point 4. suggest we return back to ‘many’ in those countries using ‘all’?

Actually, here’s the WHOLE point…[edited by Moderator]
When you QUOTE someone do you poke in what you think they might have meant & excise what they actually said, in the middle of the QUOTE, or do you use word-for-word?
To say nothing of MIS-QUOTING God Himself as if He needed a little human help on this august occasion.
That’s all… err many.

 

[St_Isidore]

Precisely. In this case validity may not be sufficient.

That is what I thought. But I got the impression that this JKIRKLVNV was implying the opposite to what is written, in the very quote/link he/she supplied . Thanks

 

[BobP123]

That is what I thought. But I got the impression that this JKIRKLVNV was implying the opposite to what is written, in the very quote/link he/she supplied . Thanks

I don’t distrust his sources. But do you really expect anyone in Rome saying their Masses aren’t valid in public? Yeh, right.

What we need is another Pope like Pope Leo XIII. When he saw invalid Masses, he declared them not only invalid going forward, but invalid RETROACTIVELY. And why not? God may indeed judge us by what we should have known.

 

[ACHAIA]

Yes, St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII both issued revisions of the Tridentine Rite. I know the Pope Pius XII revisions had to do with Holy Week; I’m not sure what revisions St. Pius X made. I’ll try to find out.

In his encyclical Mediator Dei, Pope Pius XII says: “It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification.” (no. 58)

It is clear that the “in perpetuity” says that the Tridentine can never be modified or replaced until/unless the pope decides otherwise. The promulgation of a rite is a disciplinary act, but no pope can bind another pope in disciplinary matters because each pope is Supreme Legislator and shares fully in the powers promised to Peter: “And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.” (Matt. 16:19) Thus St. Pius V did not bind future popes when he promulgated the Tridentine Rite in perpetuity.

Maria

 

[ACHAIA]

Thank you Maria. Whilst No. 58 of the Pope’s encyclical Mediator Dei does make it clear, Nos 187 and 188 and 190 emphasies the need for all to strive in obedience and to adhere to the laws. In perpetuity means forever
Throughout the centuries the earlier Popes have deemed to safeguard and uphold the Deposits of Faith. What amazes me is that come Vatican II Council we have Pope John 23 and his predecessors condemning and trashing all that was regarded as reverent and holy… Did the saints and martyrs, Doctors of the Church - our forefathers die in vain defending the Faith? How was it ever possible that Vatican II invited Protestant Ministers (remember they are descendants of Martin Luther who hated our Holy Sacrifice of the Mass - the reason why Luther was excommunicated). to be involved in the reforms of our Liturgical worship?

I was told quite plainly or should I say bluntly, that the New Mass to this present day is just a meal or a supper or a gathering of the People of God around a banquet. The Priest is no priest at all since Vatican II have removed all the prayers necessary to grant our newly ordained priests the POWERS to offer the Holy Sacrifice. Instead, they are blessed and given orders to preside . How is it that in the New Liturgy, we no longer have an altar (to offer a Sacrifice) but a table where “all are called to sup” so to speak. How is it that our Holy Tabernacles have been pushed to a “convenient” place in the churches and instead we have (like in our Cathedral) a humongous cement chair that has taken central position. There is no mention of a Sacrifice in the New Mass at all. Have we been duped? ?

Is Interfaith Catholic? Is Ecumenism Catholic? Is Religious Liberty Catholic? Or are they doctrines of the Masons? Are we Catholic? Have we become so brainwashed, that we see no error?

In my parish, we have all sorts of weird happenings since the changes took effect and it is getting worse. For Chinese New Year, the Archbishop allows the pagan Chinese celebrations in the Cathedral - they enter the church performing their Lion Dance and all the rest of it. When it comes to Interfaith Worship - all non-christian denominations are up at the altar reciting their own sacred books - the Hindus, the Muslims, Bahais , you name it. The Archbishop here shamefully encourages Catholic teachers to seek dialogue with Hindus and Muslims - go into their temples and learn about who they are!!! Is this the gospel of Christ? The directives they say come from the Vatican…

Are we suppose to sit back and wonder and just let things be as they are or are we supposed to seek the truth and PRAY for God’s mercy that we are not being MISLED into thinking that we are still the same Church.

I am totally convinced that the Traditional Latin Masses are still in existence today for the sole reason that Jesus Christ willed it to be. He proclaimed in scripture that “The gates of hell shall not prevail against her” - His church. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is to be found ONLY in the Traditional Latin Masses alone - NOTHING HAS CHANGED. Please be notified that The Indult Masses that are said in Latin are merely the New Mass translation into Latin word for word. There is no sacrifice taking place there. The Sacred Deposits of Faith and all the doctrines handed down from generation unto generation through the Popes have been forever safeguarded and kept alongside the TLM. Nothing that is found in TLM is profane. The traditional and scriptural teachings remain intact.

“You shall know them by their fruits”. The New Order of the Mass has brought about nothing but chaos, irreverence, division, the loss of thousands of souls leaving for false religions and more importantly the loss of the true Faith - Apostasy as foretold in Scripture.

Do we realise that Vatican II teachings indicate that salvation is now gained through any other religions be it false christian religions or non-Christian relgions, pagan or what-have-yous as long as there is some good in that religion? Is this what Jesus taught us? Do we realise that it is no longer necessary to win souls over to the true Catholic faith? The jews today no longer need to convert - they are being told by the new teachings that they can remain where they are and so be it with everyone else.

Its as if we mock the Spirit of God who at one time teaches certain truths and in another instance, changes His mind and teaches something new altogether. It is a blasphemous teaching.

Therefore, be wary, it is the very people we persecute and excommunicate (the traditionalists) who have “returned to the catacombs” in order to hide from their arch enemies and celebrate the Holy Sacrifice that is most pleasing to God .

 

[JKirkLVNV]

w.r.t your supplied link does point 4. suggest we return back to ‘many’ in those countries using ‘all’?

I’m sorry, I don’t understand your question.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Actually, here’s the WHOLE point…[edited by Moderator]
When you QUOTE someone do you poke in what you think they might have meant & excise what they actually said, in the middle of the QUOTE, or do you use word-for-word?
To say nothing of MIS-QUOTING God Himself as if He needed a little human help on this august occasion.
That’s all… err many.

**I thought that was clear from my intro. English speaking countries would be returning to “for many,” by order of the Holy See, but that that did not render invalid those masses that had been confected using “for all” (according to that same competent authority). I only wrote the bit covering validity because I’d already stipulated that we were going back to “for many.” **

 

[Uxor]

In perpetuity means forever

Throughout the centuries the earlier Popes have deemed to safeguard and uphold the Deposits of Faith.

This is where I think people misinterrupt…when they say, no Pope can bind a future Pope from introducing a New Mass…The Pope is suppose to protect the Mass IMO.

The Priest is no priest at all since Vatican II have removed all the prayers necessary to grant our newly ordained priests the POWERS to offer the Holy Sacrifice.

Are you saying the Sacrifice doesn’t take place then in NO Mass?

When it comes to Interfaith Worship - all non-christian denominations are up at the altar reciting their own sacred books - the Hindus, the Muslims, Bahais , you name it. The Archbishop here shamefully encourages Catholic teachers to seek dialogue with Hindus and Muslims - go into their temples and learn about who they are!!! Is this the gospel of Christ?

Did they forget Christ only established One Church?

.

Therefore, be wary, it is the very people we persecute and excommunicate (the traditionalists) who have “returned to the catacombs” in order to hide from their arch enemies and celebrate the Holy Sacrifice that is most pleasing to God .

Christ’s own persecuted Him…why do we think those in the Catholic Church wouldn’t do the same?

 

[St_Isidore]

Thank you Maria. Whilst No. 58 of the Pope’s encyclical Mediator Dei does make it clear, Nos 187 and 188 and 190 emphasies the need for all to strive in obedience and to adhere to the laws. In perpetuity means forever
Throughout the centuries the earlier Popes have deemed to safeguard and uphold the Deposits of Faith. What amazes me is that come Vatican II Council we have Pope John 23 and his predecessors condemning and trashing all that was regarded as reverent and holy… Did the saints and martyrs, Doctors of the Church - our forefathers die in vain defending the Faith? **How was it ever possible that Vatican II invited Protestant Ministers (remember they are descendants of Martin Luther who hated our Holy Sacrifice of the Mass - the reason why Luther was excommunicated). to be involved in the reforms of our Liturgical worship? **

Modernists seem to ignore this. Good Point.

I was told quite plainly or should I say bluntly, that the New Mass to this present day is just a meal or a supper or a gathering of the People of God around a banquet. The Priest is no priest at all since Vatican II have removed all the prayers necessary to grant our newly ordained priests the POWERS to offer the Holy Sacrifice. Instead, they are blessed and given orders to preside . How is it that in the New Liturgy, we no longer have an altar (to offer a Sacrifice) but a table where “all are called to sup” so to speak. **How is it that our Holy Tabernacles have been pushed to a “convenient” place in the churches and instead we have (like in our Cathedral) a humongous cement chair that has taken central position. There is no mention of a Sacrifice in the New Mass at all. Have we been duped? ? **

Once again, I agree, and the Modernists of the Novus Ordo Sect ignore this as well.

Is Interfaith Catholic? Is Ecumenism Catholic? Is Religious Liberty Catholic? Or are they doctrines of the Masons? Are we Catholic? Have we become so brainwashed, that we see no error?

These are totally legitimate questions. Modernists will again disagree. (St. Mt 15:14 …blind lead the blind…)

In my parish, we have all sorts of weird happenings since the changes took effect and it is getting worse. For Chinese New Year, the Archbishop allows the pagan Chinese celebrations in the Cathedral - they enter the church performing their Lion Dance and all the rest of it. When it comes to Interfaith Worship - all non-christian denominations are up at the altar reciting their own sacred books - the Hindus, the Muslims, Bahais , you name it. The Archbishop here shamefully encourages Catholic teachers to seek dialogue with Hindus and Muslims - go into their temples and learn about who they are!!! Is this the gospel of Christ? The directives they say come from the Vatican.

.

The Novus Ordo sect encourages this pagan accompaniment and it is not the Gospel of our Lord and Saviour Christ. The modernist sect sees nothing wrong with paganism.

Are we suppose to sit back and wonder and just let things be as they are or are we supposed to seek the truth and PRAY for God’s mercy that we are not being MISLED into thinking that we are still the same Church.

They are mislead, it is not the same Church.

I am totally convinced that the Traditional Latin Masses are still in existence today for the sole reason that Jesus Christ willed it to be.

Though they pray for it, the Modernist sect and their allies shall never prevail. That is why the TLM is still extant, and continues to grow. Whilst the Modernists numbers drop consistently.
The only thing consistent about the Modernist Novus Ordo Sect is that they are Inconsistent. (i.e. consistently inconsistent).

 

[St_Isidore]

He proclaimed in scripture that “The gates of hell shall not prevail against her” - His church. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is to be found ONLY in the Traditional Latin Masses alone - NOTHING HAS CHANGED. Please be notified that The Indult Masses that are said in Latin are merely the New Mass translation into Latin word for word. There is no sacrifice taking place there. The Sacred Deposits of Faith and all the doctrines handed down from generation unto generation through the Popes have been forever safeguarded and kept alongside the TLM. Nothing that is found in TLM is profane. The traditional and scriptural teachings remain intact.

I agree since the words of the consecration are altered the sacrifice is null and void. But even the Modernist Novus Ordo sect knows that the consecration occors in the TLM. It is the NO that is invalidated.

“You shall know them by their fruits”. The New Order of the Mass has brought about nothing but chaos, irreverence, division, the loss of thousands of souls leaving for false religions and more importantly the loss of the true Faith - Apostasy as foretold in Scripture.

Yes, the Modernists will ignore this at all angles.
Unfortunately they do not know their fruits nor do they realize the Apostasy of them.

Do we realise that Vatican II teachings indicate that salvation is now gained through any other religions be it false christian religions or non-Christian relgions, pagan or what-have-yous as long as there is some good in that religion? Is this what Jesus taught us? Do we realise that it is no longer necessary to win souls over to the true Catholic faith? The jews today no longer need to convert - they are being told by the new teachings that they can remain where they are and so be it with everyone else.

The Novus Ordo Sect has indicated without fear that YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE CATHOLIC to be saved. WHAT UP WITH THAT? Completely ludicrous.

Its as if we mock the Spirit of God who at one time teaches certain truths and in another instance, changes His mind and teaches something new altogether. It is a blasphemous teaching.

The Modernist movement do not see the Blaspheme.

Therefore, be wary, it is the very people we persecute and excommunicate (the traditionalists) who have “returned to the catacombs” in order to hide from their arch enemies and celebrate the Holy Sacrifice that is most pleasing to God .

It is as it was said by Christ.(St. Mt 5:11)

Excellent ACHAIA