Well I guess the Rumors are True(Traditional Mass Back)

[MTD]

Are you aware that St Pius V in 1571 decreed in the solemn Bull, Quo Primum, which he promulgated to the Catholic world, that the Latin “pristine” form of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the Roman Missal be observed by all everywhere “in perpetuity” - FOR ALL TIME. Never at any time was anything to be added, subtracted, or changed, nor was anyone to attempt to go contrary to his decree lest HE INCUR THE WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD AND OF HIS APOSTLES, SAINTS PETER AND PAUL.

Yes, TNT is right; we shouldn’t get into it again here. However, I can’t resist reminding you that St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII did just what they were supposedly forbidden to do by Quo Primum: revise the Tridentine Rite!

Maria

 

[ACHAIA]

Yes, TNT is right; we shouldn’t get into it again here. However, I can’t resist reminding you that St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII did just what they were supposedly forbidden to do by Quo Primum: revise the Tridentine Rite!

Maria

Thank you TNT and Maria. Did the 2 popes actually do that -i.e. revise the Tridentine Rite?

 

[kangnamdragon]

Here is confirmation from another source.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0701785.htm

 

[bear06]

1. The Novus Ordo Mass - even when done reverently - according to Pope Benedict XVI - when he was a Cardinal - is “seriously deficient” in the expression of the Catholic faith.

Do you have the context of this quote? Danka.

 

[bear06]

Are you aware that St Pius V in 1571 decreed in the solemn Bull, Quo Primum, which he promulgated to the Catholic world, that the Latin “pristine” form of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the Roman Missal be observed by all everywhere “in perpetuity” - FOR ALL TIME. Never at any time was anything to be added, subtracted, or changed, nor was anyone to attempt to go contrary to his decree lest HE INCUR THE WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD AND OF HIS APOSTLES, SAINTS PETER AND PAUL.

And now that you said this, I will link to this:
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/QUOPIUS.htm

 

[bear06]

You are welcome to crank up yet another Thread on the matter, but understand it has been thrashed ad -u-no-what.
Sincerely,
Rad Rad Trad (RRT)

Sooooooooooooooooo true.

 

[ACHAIA]

Do you have the context of this quote? Danka.

Thank you, yes I do.

 

[rlg94086]

Fantastic news!

 

[ACHAIA]

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I did read through this article and I thought it totally demeaning and absurd - to even suggest that the Holy Spirit does not have anything to do with Liturgical changes. Its no wonder we have sacriligeous and blasphemous “messes” in most of the parishes. The discarding of the Latin Mass which offers the true sacrifice in all its purity and the introduction of the Norvus Odo service which is devoid of sacrifice in the true sense - the very fact that the words uttered by our Lord has been falsified in the Consecration "…which shall be shed for you and for ALL??? Did Jesus not say : "…which shall be shed for you and MANY???. This is sacriligeous as far as every true Catholic is concerned.

Well, the translation is being brought back to a closer fidelity to the Latin, but this poor, deluded, and (I suppose) “false” Catholic apparently feels that it did not effect the consecration of the Most Precious Blood:

adoremus.org/Arinze_ProMultis.html

“2. There is no doubt whatsoever regarding the validity of Masses celebrated with the use of a duly approved formula containing a formula equivalent to “for all”, as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has already declared (cf. Sacra Congregatio pro Doctrina Fidei, Declaratio de sensu tribuendo adprobationi versionum formularum sacramentalium, 25 Ianuarii 1974, AAS 66 [1974], 661). Indeed, the formula “for all” would undoubtedly correspond to a correct interpretation of the Lord’s intention expressed in the text. It is a dogma of faith that Christ died on the Cross for all men and women (cf. John 11:52; 2 Corinthians 5,14-15; Titus 2,11; 1 John 2,2).”

His name is Francis Arinze. Head of some committee, works for a guy named Ratzinger. You should drop him a line (address it to “Frank,” I’ve heard he likes that), ask him where he gets off.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Praying hard it is true. But unfortunately I am not going to hold my breath. We have been disappointed tooooo many times.

Where there is this much smoke, there is generally fire. I think you can at least get ready to celebrate.

 

[ACHAIA]

Well, the translation is being brought back to a closer fidelity to the Latin, but this poor, deluded, and (I suppose) “false” Catholic apparently feels that it did not effect the consecration of the Most Precious Blood:

adoremus.org/Arinze_ProMultis.html

“2. There is no doubt whatsoever regarding the validity of Masses celebrated with the use of a duly approved formula containing a formula equivalent to “for all”, as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has already declared (cf. Sacra Congregatio pro Doctrina Fidei, Declaratio de sensu tribuendo adprobationi versionum formularum sacramentalium, 25 Ianuarii 1974, AAS 66 [1974], 661). Indeed, the formula “for all” would undoubtedly correspond to a correct interpretation of the Lord’s intention expressed in the text. It is a dogma of faith that Christ died on the Cross for all men and women (cf. John 11:52; 2 Corinthians 5,14-15; Titus 2,11; 1 John 2,2).”

His name is Francis Arinze. Head of some committee, works for a guy named Ratzinger. You should drop him a line (address it to “Frank,” I’ve heard he likes that), ask him where he gets off.

 

[MTD]

Thank you TNT and Maria. Did the 2 popes actually do that -i.e. revise the Tridentine Rite?

Yes, St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII both issued revisions of the Tridentine Rite. I know the Pope Pius XII revisions had to do with Holy Week; I’m not sure what revisions St. Pius X made. I’ll try to find out.

In his encyclical Mediator Dei, Pope Pius XII says: “It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification.” (no. 58)

It is clear that the “in perpetuity” says that the Tridentine can never be modified or replaced until/unless the pope decides otherwise. The promulgation of a rite is a disciplinary act, but no pope can bind another pope in disciplinary matters because each pope is Supreme Legislator and shares fully in the powers promised to Peter: “And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.” (Matt. 16:19) Thus St. Pius V did not bind future popes when he promulgated the Tridentine Rite in perpetuity.

Maria

 

[bkovacs]

Hopefully!. No official document yet!. Even if the document comes out, it probably won’t have much of an effect here in the US for years to come. As one poster correctly put it. If the parish priest doesn’t see a demand for it, or he himself doesn’t have the ability or interest to perform the Tridentine Mass or encourage it’s use as the Pope would. You won’t see it in your parish, and you will still have to drive hours to a church that has it for many years to come. I have personally emailed several priests, as to whether they would offer a Tridentine Mass if this document is released. But have got almost no replies to my emails. Except for one in which a Benedictine from the UK, thought the topic of my e-mail was not worth discussing or basically that I cannot answer that type of e-mail . Either they didn’t want to comment before the document was released. Or more likely, they could care less. On a more positive side though I have also read that more younger Roman Catholics show an interest in the Tridentine Mass. Maybe if the youth of the church gather together and begin pleading for the Tridentine Mass. The clergy may heed to the youths demands. I personally feel that not much will come out of this document, apart from showing Roman Catholics that the Tridentine Mass is well and alive. It is now up to the clergy to allow it to grow again. And for them to stop heeding to the demands of liberal Roman Catholic bishops and lay people. It’s could be one of the best gifts the current Pope has given in his tenure to Roman Catholics. But it could also be a gift liberal bishops and those who have power in the Roman Catholic Church, will not distribute. Keep on praying fervently that all I have to say is wrong, apart from the youth of course. Happy Pascha!!

 

[BobP123]

Are you aware that St Pius V in 1571 decreed in the solemn Bull, Quo Primum, which he promulgated to the Catholic world, that the Latin “pristine” form of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the Roman Missal be observed by all everywhere “in perpetuity” - FOR ALL TIME. Never at any time was anything to be added, subtracted, or changed, nor was anyone to attempt to go contrary to his decree lest HE INCUR THE WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD AND OF HIS APOSTLES, SAINTS PETER AND PAUL.

Despite the great Anathema, the liturgy indeed was changed and doctrinal changes followed. All that was previously condemned by five Popes and called heretical are now now the new teachings which we are called to adhere - Ecumenism, Religious Liberty/Freedom, A good example would be this - According to the New Code of Canon Law, non-Catholics can under certain circumstances petition the “sacraments” from a Catholic priest (without the non-Catholic abjuring his heretical beliefs) and the priests are required to administer them. It was previously very strictly forbidden. These changes in both liturgical worship and teachings have allowed many parishes throughout the world through the actions of our beloved past Pope John Paul II (his participation in ecumencial religious services with non_Catholic and non-Christian religions) to follow likewise. These are new doctrines and we must be obedient to them. And there are many like examples. It is shocking to know that Protestant theologians helped bring about the changes for Vatican II.

Quo Primum was in fact a promulgation of the TLM, which really was the then-existing Old Rite.

Quo Primum was also based on the decrees of Trent and therein lies its true force of divine law, liberal pleas to make it “disciplinary” notwithstanding.

 

[BobP123]

Ah, yes we are all, each and every one who regularly posts in this Forum, “perpetually” aware of all of that and perpetually told that…ESPECIALLY UXOR.
I did a search on Threads that have “Quo Primum” in the subject matter and got 86 Threads.

Sincerely,
Rad Rad Trad (RRT)

Which one should we pick?

Hmmm, Let’s try this one:

Was Quo Primum even necessary?

 

[BobP123]

On a more positive side though I have also read that more younger Roman Catholics show an interest in the Tridentine Mass. Maybe if the youth of the church gather together and begin pleading for the Tridentine Mass.

Makes sense. The youth don’t carry the excess baggage all us Vatican II veterans do.

The clergy may heed to the youths demands.

The youths are the new generation of the clergy. I wouldn’t expect the existing clergy to do much more than to continue to deny the TLM.

I personally feel that not much will come out of this document, apart from showing Roman Catholics that the Tridentine Mass is well and alive. It is now up to the clergy to allow it to grow again. And for them to stop heeding to the demands of liberal Roman Catholic bishops and lay people.

It’s not the liberals I worry about. We all know who they are and their agenda. I worry more about the compromises and concessions “our side” will be making.

it could also be a gift liberal bishops and those who have power in the Roman Catholic Church, will not distribute.

Resistance is about the only thing that we can count on.

A blessed Palm Sunday to you too.

 

[scapularkid8]

It doesn’t mean we’ll see much of a return to the liturgical form of the Tridentine Mass in most areas; many of the people I know don’t want it.

I understand though (at least where I live) that there is a huge longing by the youth for the traditional celebration of the Mass (myself included). The reason they don’t want it is probably because they don’t understand it. I’m sure along with this new option, the Pope would reccommend that priests educate their willing parishoners on what exactly the Triditional Mass is all about. (At least I would!?)

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Quo Primum was also based on the decrees of Trent and therein lies its true force of divine law, liberal pleas to make it “disciplinary” notwithstanding.

The popes apparently have disagreed with you, and not just the post-Conciliar popes. St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII…yup, there were a couple of tree-hugging liberals.

What you assert isn’t so and the simple act of repeating yourself will not make it so.

 

[rlg94086]

His name is Francis Arinze. Head of some committee, works for a guy named Ratzinger. You should drop him a line (address it to “Frank,” I’ve heard he likes that), ask him where he gets off.

I called him last week and said, “Yo, Frank, what-up with the TLM?”

Seriously, I think the shift toward more Latin in the Paul VI Mass and freeing up of the St Pius V Mass will be embraced by some and resisted by others (maybe even many).

As I mentioned in the past, our parish priest is teaching us all the basic prayers in Latin and prays the consecration in Latin. I wouldn’t be surprised if he added a Tridentine Mass to our schedule. Like my wife and I, he grew up post-Vatican II. I’m not sure how that makes us free of “excess baggage,” but I know I yearn for more reverence in the Mass. I haven’t been to a Tridentine Mass (they haven’t been offered at any of the parishes, I’ve attended) or an Eastern Rite Liturgy, but both interest me. Our parish is quite different than the California, Colorado and Oregon parishes I attended in vestments, quiet prayer before Mass, etc. It makes a difference, IMHO.

That said, I believe the problems with the Paul VI Mass are in the abuses, not in the Mass itself. Perhaps, that is the “baggage,” we are missing out on.

As a convert, I have experienced quite a few protestant services (Presbyterian, Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal, Episcopal, non-denominational “Bible” churches, etc.). None of them compare to the Catholic Mass, because they are missing the fullness of truth regarding the Eucharist.