"Well, I'm Catholic and I'm pro-choice..."

[Bob_Byrnes]

That’s intellectually dishonest. “Pro-choice” is “pro-abortion” no matter how you try to spin it.

You are fooling yourself. Ask yourself this, if a man should choose to murder his wife, would you be “pro-choice” in that case?

You cannot be a Catholic and accept the decision to kill a living human being, without due process of law lies solely in the descretion of another human being.

You miss my point. Clearly the man has the choice to murder his wife. I never said I accept the decision to kill a human being. I do not understand where you got that from my posting. God created your “man who chose to murder his wife” and he created him with the free will to choose to commit that murder. That says to me that God is pro choice but not pro evil. Passing laws is not going to stop people from choosing abortion. We must pray and convince people to choose life. They always have the choice.

 

[Jerome42]

Here’s something that I haven’t seen addressed… I was speaking with some good friends who are both relatively orthodox in their Catholicism. Both felt abortion was a bad thing, but that before so many women died from black market abortions. If we were to make it illegal, this situation would occur again. Thus, keeping it legal helps save the lives of women who would have an abortion one way or another.

I replied that the situation pre-Roe was not anywhere near as bad as they said it was. But my reply fell short.

Any help would be appreciated.

The big difference here is:

1: The black market or back alley abortion was performed by an evil person who had disregard for human life. People like that lived in the shadows but could be easily identified for what they were. There was no necessity to get Medical Proffessionsl involved in the procedure.
2. The woman getting the abortion, too had serious issues with regards to the unwanted child as well as herself, since her promiscuity and/or improper planning caused the situation to began with.

The government has absolutley no reason to get involved with this issue by creating some imaginary right of women to terminate the life of the unborn. The government does have the duty to get after those evil shadowy figures who kill the unborn and sometimes the mother.

 

[vern_humphrey]

You miss my point. Clearly the man has the choice to murder his wife. I never said I accept the decision to kill a human being.

Then what do you mean?

“Pro-choice” in ordinary speech means one is at least willing to stand by and do nothing while the innocent are put to death. “Pro-choice” means we have no obligation to protect the most helpless and innocent amongst us.

Is that what you believe?

I do not understand where you got that from my posting. God created your “man who chose to murder his wife” and he created him with the free will to choose to commit that murder. That says to me that God is pro choice but not pro evil. Passing laws is not going to stop people from choosing abortion. We must pray and convince people to choose life. They always have the choice.

Ah, the old “Passing laws is not going to stop people from choosing abortion” ploy.

Passing laws is not going to stop people from choosing to rob banks.

Passing laws is not going to stop people from choosing to commit rape.

Passing laws is not going to stop people from choosing to murder their wives, husbands, nieghbors or drug-dealing rivals.

So let’s abolish all laws and disband all police forces.

Does that make sense to you?

 

[Bob_Byrnes]

Then what do you mean?

“Pro-choice” in ordinary speech means one is at least willing to stand by and do nothing while the innocent are put to death. “Pro-choice” means we have no obligation to protect the most helpless and innocent amongst us.

Is that what you believe?

Ah, the old “Passing laws is not going to stop people from choosing abortion” ploy.

Passing laws is not going to stop people from choosing to rob banks.

Passing laws is not going to stop people from choosing to commit rape.

Passing laws is not going to stop people from choosing to murder their wives, husbands, nieghbors or drug-dealing rivals.

So let’s abolish all laws and disband all police forces.

Does that make sense to you?

People do rob banks…people do commit rape…people do choose to murder their wives, husbands, neighbors and drug-dealing rivals.
In all of these cases there is a societal consensus that they should be punished. That consensus clearly does not exist in our current society concerning abortion and, until it does, I’ll continue to try to convince women to choose life rather than waste my time trying to change a law that will have little effect on the number of abortions.
Laws are only effective if there is a societal consensus.

 

[francesco920]

There is an inference here that “pro-choice” is “pro-abortion”. That’s not very good logic. I am pro-choice but ant -abortion. I believe women should have the right to choose but they should not choose abortion. We were all born with the gift of a free will. One of God’s greatest gifts. God says you are free to choose good or evil but that does not make Him pro evil. Come to think of it, being pro free will is certainly pro-choice. It seems to me that God was the quintessential pro choicer when He decided to create us with a free will. Clearly you can be a Catholic and be a free choicer…you cannot be a Catholic and be pro-abortion.

Your logic is incredibly distorted. Does that mean we should give people the right to choose to commit murder in general? After all, they have free will. And what about the right to choose to commit a rape? After all they have free will. And how about the right to choose to commit theft? After all they have free will. Oh, and how about the right to choose to kidnap? After all they have free will, right?

NO. Just because all have free will doesn’t mean that the rest of us can’t pass legislation to restrict certain actions.

Oh, and keep in mind that free will means that you have the ability, NOT the right, to choose whether or not to do good or evil.

 

[Holly3278]

You cannot be both Catholic and pro-abortion. It simply is not possible.

 

[Sheeniac]

God Bless you for talking to these people & trying to reason with them. I don’t know if I could as that senario is so revolting and repugnant. Do they realize that they bear some responsibility for millions of dead innocent babies? If all the “Christians” refused to support abortion politicians & voted with the morals & ethics of the Churchs teaching, instead of wanting to be identified with a certain party, abortion would be history. I pray for their souls.

They are two very dear friends of mine. Rather than my usual ‘Rambo’ approach, I am approaching this carefully since my hope is to plant the seed of change in their minds. I think a softer approach will have more impact, especially since I’ve got years to work on them, not just 30 seconds.

Interestingly enough, while I was an atheist, I started to become pro-life. When they were both pregnant, it was the first time I realized that mothers-to-be think of the ‘clump of cells’ (in pro-abort-speak) as a baby from Minute One. No one waited until the 12th week before dreaming about their child, instead it was instant. Since the reality of the situation is not dependent on who is doing the thinking, or their state of mind, it really hit home to me that a human life begins at conception.

It took a long time with a lot of thinking to become a pro-life atheist, so I have a patient outlook with regard to my 2 girlfriends.

 

[TheApologist]

They are two very dear friends of mine. Rather than my usual ‘Rambo’ approach, I am approaching this carefully since my hope is to plant the seed of change in their minds. I think a softer approach will have more impact, especially since I’ve got years to work on them, not just 30 seconds.

Interestingly enough, while I was an atheist, I started to become pro-life. When they were both pregnant, it was the first time I realized that mothers-to-be think of the ‘clump of cells’ (in pro-abort-speak) as a baby from Minute One. No one waited until the 12th week before dreaming about their child, instead it was instant. Since the reality of the situation is not dependent on who is doing the thinking, or their state of mind, it really hit home to me that a human life begins at conception.

It took a long time with a lot of thinking to become a pro-life atheist, so I have a patient outlook with regard to my 2 girlfriends.

Was Godi talking about me or you?

 

[vern_humphrey]

People do rob banks…people do commit rape…people do choose to murder their wives, husbands, neighbors and drug-dealing rivals.
In all of these cases there is a societal consensus that they should be punished. That consensus clearly does not exist in our current society concerning abortion and, until it does, I’ll continue to try to convince women to choose life rather than waste my time trying to change a law that will have little effect on the number of abortions.
Laws are only effective if there is a societal consensus.

There was a time in this country when wife-beating was not considered a serious crime. But then laws were passed against it and enforced.

There was a time in this country when racial discrimination was not considered a serious crime. But then laws were passed against it and enforced.

As Catholics, we have a duty to defend and protect the helpless and innocent. Sitting on our thumbs and moaning, “Laws are only effective if there is a societal consensus” doesn’t cut it.

 

[Bob_Byrnes]

There was a time in this country when wife-beating was not considered a serious crime. But then laws were passed against it and enforced.

There was a time in this country when racial discrimination was not considered a serious crime. But then laws were passed against it and enforced.

As Catholics, we have a duty to defend and protect the helpless and innocent. Sitting on our thumbs and moaning, “Laws are only effective if there is a societal consensus” doesn’t cut it.

How dare you say I’m sitting on my thumbs. You have no idea what I’m doing in regard to preventing abortions. Unfortunately, “Jumping to conclusions” is the only exercise some people get.

 

[vern_humphrey]

How dare you say I’m sitting on my thumbs. You have no idea what I’m doing in regard to preventing abortions. Unfortunately, “Jumping to conclusions” is the only exercise some people get.

I didn’t say you were sitting on your thumbs. But unfortunately, “Jumping to conclusions” is the only exercise some people get.

And you are certainly free to post what you are doing in regard to abortion.

 

[Bob_Byrnes]

I didn’t say you were sitting on your thumbs. But unfortunately, “Jumping to conclusions” is the only exercise some people get.

And you are certainly free to post what you are doing in regard to abortion.

I guess you were talking about someone else who said exactly the same thing I said. You and I will probably never agree on this subject so let’s just go our separate ways and maybe between the two of us we will have some positive effect on the reduction of abortions.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I guess you were talking about someone else who said exactly the same thing I said.

I just fired a shot into the woods at random, and you fell out of a tree.

You and I will probably never agree on this subject so let’s just go our separate ways and maybe between the two of us we will have some positive effect on the reduction of abortions.

Don’t go away mad – tell us what you’re doing to reduce abortions. Maybe we can use that approach in our own programs

 

[Bob_Byrnes]

I just fired a shot into the woods at random, and you fell out of a tree.

Don’t go away mad – tell us what you’re doing to reduce abortions. Maybe we can use that approach in our own programs

Believe me, I’m not mad. I’m too old to get mad at good people.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Believe me, I’m not mad. I’m too old to get mad at good people.

Then tell us what your approach is. Let’s share ideas and increase our effectiveness.

 

[AP4Him]

I am SHOCKED that anyone here can assume that they are still Catholic if they are pro-choice. You are not. Pray. Pray for yourself. These two things just do not coexist. AT ALL.

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

That consensus clearly does not exist in our current society concerning abortion and, until it does, I’ll continue to try to convince women to choose life rather than waste my time trying to change a law that will have little effect on the number of abortions.

first off, the legalization of abortion was not brought about by a democratic process, or by consensus, but by judges overstepping their authority and litigating from the bench. second, the fact that you make something legal legitimizes it for many people. the legalization of abortion has only created more apathy and support for it. if it were brought to a popular state vote, we’d see abortion on demand nearly abolished, at least in the south and midwest.

you are being duplicitous when you say to change hearts vs. changing the law. we must change both. the law of the state should reflect the natural law, which all men must recognize.

 

[Godi]

I am SHOCKED that anyone here can assume that they are still Catholic if they are pro-choice. You are not. Pray. Pray for yourself. These two things just do not coexist. AT ALL.

AP4Him, there is a word for that, let me see what was that word? Jesus called the Pharisees this word? It was a particularly harsh word. Jesus really dispised them. That word is on the tip of my tongue. I can’t seem to remember. Anybody know that word?

 

[TheApologist]

If you look at the national statistics and we had a nation-wide vote on abortion with these options on the ballot:

1. Abortion should always be legal…even after the baby is outta the womb…not after the umbilical cord is cut.

2)Abortion should always be legal in the womb.

3)Abortion should be legal until the baby starts moving, getting ready to leave the womb.

4)Abortion should be legal up until the third trimester

5)Abortion should only be legal up until the earliest known viable baby was born.

6)Abortion should be legal until the baby’s heart beat starts.

7)Abortion should be legal the first month of pregnancy.

8)Abortion should be legal only the first week of pregnancy.

9)Abortion should be legal only in case of rape and health issues which would kill the mother if she had her child.

10)Abortion should be legal only in case of the big possibility of death to the mother if she continues to carry her baby.

…If this were the ballot, you’d be surprised how many people would vote 9.

 

[AP4Him]

Great point about murder statutes…ITA! The crux of the problem is that pro-abortionists just do not respect life or do not really believe that the baby in the womb is a person. Cause, really, if you support an abortion for ‘justifiable’ reasons related to a mother’s mental health or situation, etc., you should also support a mother’s right to kill her 1 month old, 3 year old, or 10 year old for the same reasons and thus argue that murder statutes should disappear, making it her choice, praying that she chooses not to kill her kids. How is it any different? Really, how? A baby nestled in a woman’s womb is a person, just like the person resting in a crib, so how can we argue it is okay to protect one and not the other?