"We're not stupid - this is an idol" - Fr. Mitch Pacwa

[Chistian-ity]

“Pachamama is a goddess revered by the indigenous people of the Andes. She is also known as the earth/time mother. In Inca mythology, Pachamama is a fertility goddess who presides over planting and harvesting, embodies the mountains, and causes earthquakes.”-good old wikepedia

I could be mistaken in some way about your inquiry though.

 

[TheBomb.Com]

I don’t think religious orders are necessarily inspired by the Holy Spirit. Sure, you can believe so, but ultimately these orders were founded to combat heresy. Dominicans the albigenesians. Jesuits the Protestants. And so on and so forth.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

No, my ultra-montanist friend, not even the pope can suppress the papacy.

 

[FiveLinden]

“ Pachamama is a goddess revered by the indigenous people of the Andes. She is also known as the earth/time mother. In Inca mythology, Pachamama is a fertility goddess who presides over planting and harvesting, embodies the mountains, and causes earthquakes.”-good old wikepedia

I could be mistaken in some way about your inquiry though

The question is: is the wooden image in question itself revered as a god. If so, it is an idol. If not it is no more an idol than a sculpture of ‘Justice’ outside a court or an American flag which ‘stands for a republic’ to which people pledge allegiance. There are many, many ‘religions’ with ‘gods’ that are representative of physical forces or cultural experiences shared by humans. Typically these ‘gods’ are not worshipped, praised, ‘given glory’ as is the Christian/Muslim/Jewish God.

 

[AlbMagno]

Why do you call me an ultramontanist?

 

[AlbMagno]

Thank you very much

 

[AlbMagno]

That is debatable. But even then, we can pick other institution like the College of Cardinals and say it’s absurd to supress it because McCarrick was an abuser, so with the Jesuits.

I hope you don’t do the impossible to justify me that Cardinals are divinely instituted. I know you, @MiserereMeiDei, @AlbertDerGrosse and all the gang likes to fight me about every little detail to contradict my non-traditionalist opinions…

 

[Jen7]

There are many, many ‘religions’ with ‘gods’ that are representative of physical forces or cultural experiences shared by humans. Typically these ‘gods’ are not worshipped, praised, ‘given glory’ as is the Christian/Muslim/Jewish God.

But Isn’t that one of the distinguishing factors between The Trinity vs false gods - the former seeks our praise and honor whereas the latter doesn’t seek praise or honor per se - it’s more about offerings (I’m thinking OT & my kids have been studying ancient tribal civilizations in school lately and there seem to be a lot of offerings, dances, and other rituals involved in their worship.) This is why the bowing alone (to P-Mama) disturbs me, along with the smoke and the processions. Maybe it didn’t fully look like Judeo-Christian worship… but I don’t think that’s what those religions are going for. Yet that’s still how they worship.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

Why do you call me an ultramontanist?

Because I thought it was funny and appropriate due to your idea that perhaps the pope could suppress the papacy. The pope isn’t empowered to do any old thing that pops into his mind. The pope isn’t able to suppress his divinely ordained office. It doesn’t make any sense since his office was created by the King, only the king can abolish it. Also, Vatican I (IIRC) reiterated that the office of pope would never be left vacant until the Return of our King.

I know you, @MiserereMeiDei, @AlbertDerGrosse and all the gang likes to fight me about every little detail to contradict my non-traditionalist opinions…

Have I even communicated with you before?

 

[ricmat]

When I was a rookie engineer many years ago, our company lawyers always trained us that at trade shows (or similar events), not to be caught in situations of “The appearance of impropriety” - for example, don’t get in an elevator with only 1 other person that might be a “competitor”. Because it might “appear” that you were having a secret meeting and colluding to set prices or some such things. Not that rookie engineers could get involved in that stuff anyway.

Last Tuesday’s first Mass reading (2 Macabees 6:18-31) describes an Old Testament scene involving “the appearance of impropriety.”

Eleazar, a faithful Jew, is being forced by the authorities to eat pork, which is against the Jewish laws. If he refuses, he will be put to death. He does refuse, so his friends suggest he sneak in his own “lawful” meat to eat, and pretend that it is pork. That would save his life without him violating his faith.

Eleazar refuses that as well on the grounds that the “appearance” of him eating pork would lead others to do the same. So rather than gain a few additional years in this life, he chooses eternal life instead.

With regards to the recent Pachamama incident at the Vatican – there seems to be little courage, no appreciation of “the appearance of impropriety”, and a lot of “Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along.”

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

Are you implying he’s not faaabulous?

 

[esieffe]

I agree, talk is cheap. There are many of us out there that are way beyond that stage. Still more are needed. Praying for the conversion of those in the very heart of the Catholic church, fasting, rosaries and the like. I have been asking local area priests what their thoughts are about all of this and the like. I suggest we all get active in prayer.

The ones I have asked so far say nothing. They wont respond. On the matter of priests getting married one of my priests said that “he is the pope, he can do whatever he wants.”

 

[esieffe]

google.com

Wikipedia

Bing

I imagine though, we could bring in the worlds leading experts and there would be those who deny what is before their very eyes. We often see what we want to see and are blind to what is before our very eyes, and I include myself.

It is a very bitter pill to swallow I know. What good Catholic wants to watch these things brought into St. Peter’s in a canoe filled with pagan trappings carried on the shoulders of people dressed in feathers from a sparsely populated region of the world, dredged up, as a spectacle to advance the political aims of those flouting tradition, unconcerned about avoiding the appearance of scandal, that others before them, even back to the times of St. Paul, went out of their way to avoid.

What are we supposed to think? Seriously. Do you think detractors of this “synod” are enjoying all of this? I am certainly not. Further, no one need search anywhere on the net for evidence. The “Instrumentum laboris” really is enough on it’s own. The only good thing I can say about all of this, and it isn’t much, is that at least the insulting pretense and apostasy is out in the open. I accuse the document, as the authors are not here to defend themselves.

Again, I don’t take even an ounce of joy out of writing this, and I completely understand why people rush to defend all of this. It is a painful truth on top of many other ones. No good Catholic no matter how traditional, or modern wants to face these realities. I feel a deep sense of shame over these realities, these scandals, and I personally believe this is part of a chastisement that our Lady, Popes and church fathers for years have been warning us about.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

It would only be an ‘idol’ if it were worshipped as a god. Can someone point me to some authoritative piece of religious study establishing this as a fact?

First it was an image of Our Lady and St. Elizabeth (a sort of icon of the Visitation), then it was a General pro-life symbol of motherhood, then it was an innocuous symbol of earthly stewardship. Now it seems the goal posts have been moved so far back as to make “idolatry” a completely meaningless term and its object to be completely impossible.

Here are the words of Ednamar de Oliveira Viana who planted the sapling in the Vatican gardens alongside Pope Francis at which the Pachamama idols first made their appearance. Take a look at this doozy:

“It is believing in a growing and fruitful life to satisfy the hunger of Mother Earth’s creation. This brings us to our origin by reconnecting divine energy and teaching us the way back to the Creator Father.”

Do those using this image really think that it, itself, has the powers of a god? If not, it is at best a symbol. But do we have an authoritative source for what it symbolises? If so, what is that source? Does any one actually have some facts?

This distinction between supposed real idols and false idols requires laboring under an unreasonably restrictive definition of idolatry. All idols are false by virtue of the truth of monotheism. An idol need not have actual power or depict a truly existent deity beside the One True God because no such beings exist. Your definition of idolatry renders the word meaningless and the object of its act impossible.

Here is a better definition of idolatry: " The specific note of idolatry is its direct opposition to the primary object of Divine worship; it bestows on a creature the reverence due to God alone."

Let’s see: bestowing on a creature (Mother Earth) the reverence due to God alone (reference to “divine energy”, or satisfaction paid to the demands of Mother Earth, referring to “her creation”, or the scandalous prostrations paid to the planted tree, etc.) Check and check!

The entire tree planting ceremony, and by association every graven image present there including but not limited to the Pachamama figurines, was a practice of idolatry admitted to by the principal individual engaged in it! If this doesn’t satisfy the Catholic understanding of idolatry then absolutely nothing does.

In conclusion:

We’re not stupid, those were clearly idols!

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

I hope you don’t do the impossible to justify me that Cardinals are divinely instituted.

Of course not. The Cardinalate, just like religious orders, are man made. The college can be theoretically dissolved similarly.

I know you, @MiserereMeiDei, @AlbertDerGrosse and all the gang likes to fight me about every little detail to contradict my non-traditionalist opinions…

Not your non-traditionalist opinions, just your incorrect ones.

 

[AlbMagno]

Quite irrelevant considering that I have other correct opinions that prove my point.

 

[bquinnan]

No, I will not stop generalizing, not about the Jesuits. Not until they as an organization publicly correct their errant members.

For what it’s worth, Father Mitch Pacwa is also a Jesuit.

 

[CatholicELATeacher]

He is one of the good ones. Not all of them are pushing the lgbtetc agenda.

 

[blackforest]

One thing I did appreciate about it, was that he did not actually attack the Pope, in fact I don’t think he mentioned him all that much.

I haven’t read all of the replies but wanted to address yours. According to the video linked in the article, Father Pacwa spoke on November 5. Was the video uploaded the same day that he produced the show? I asked because in a statement dated October 25, Pope Francis stated:

Good afternoon. I want to say a word about the statues of the pachamama that were taken from the church of the Transpontina – which were there without idolatrous intentions – and were thrown into the Tiber.

Surely Fr. Pacwa would have seen this statement, correct? Does he not believe it, then?

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Last Tuesday’s first Mass reading (2 Macabees 6:18-31) describes an Old Testament scene involving “the appearance of impropriety.”

Eleazar, a faithful Jew, is being forced by the authorities to eat pork, which is against the Jewish laws. If he refuses, he will be put to death. He does refuse, so his friends suggest he sneak in his own “lawful” meat to eat, and pretend that it is pork. That would save his life without him violating his faith.

Eleazar refuses that as well on the grounds that the “appearance” of him eating pork would lead others to do the same. So rather than gain a few additional years in this life, he chooses eternal life instead.

August 1 is the Feast of St. Eleazar, St. Solomonia and her sons, the Seven Holy Maccabees:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

And that’s one of my favorite stories from Scripture.