Were there others present at the time of Adam?

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The Adam and Eve stories are the first primordial stories that were passed down through Jewish generations. The creation accounts of Genesis are not history books; but rather literary forms employed to describe primordial creation, and to present universal religious themes: that of the fatherhood of God, the free will of man, the disobedience of man, and the chance for salvation. The reader is not supposed to ask questions like, “who were Cain and Abel’s wives?” None of the biblical writers in fact know precisely how many people there were, or how things started out. Again, the earliest stories known concerned Adam and Eve and their family. No stories invovled other people, although of course a reasonable person reading seeking out historical facts would have to assume there were other people around at the time.

None of the Vatican statements on Adam and Eve are conclusive, but are somewhat vaguely worded, so as to verify the Adam and Eve story–that real primordial events are described–but without accounting for all associated historical details. We have to use our brains a little when reading this stuff, or we can begin to sink into the type of so-called thinking that avers there were no dinosaurs because they are not mentioned in the bible, there was no rain before the flood, etc.
…or this?

CCC 402-403
402 All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290
403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul”.291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292

Human Generis- Given at Rome, at St. Peter’s, 12 August 1950, the twelfth year of Our Pontificate.
37. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.[12]
38. Just as in the biological and anthropological sciences, so also in the historical sciences there are those who boldly transgress the limits and safeguards established by the Church. In a particular way must be deplored a certain too free interpretation of the historical books of the Old Testament. Those who favor this system, in order to defend their cause, wrongly refer to the Letter which was sent not long ago to the Archbishop of Paris by the Pontifical Commission on Biblical Studies.[13] This letter, in fact, clearly points out that the first eleven chapters of Genesis, although properly speaking not conforming to the historical method used by the best Greek and Latin writers or by competent authors of our time, do nevertheless pertain to history in a true sense, which however must be further studied and determined by exegetes; the same chapters, (the Letter points out), in simple and metaphorical language adapted to the mentality of a people but little cultured, both state the principal truths which are fundamental for our salvation, and also give a popular description of the origin of the human race and the chosen people. If, however, the ancient sacred writers have taken anything from popular narrations (and this may be conceded), it must never be forgotten that they did so with the help of divine inspiration, through which they were rendered immune from any error in selecting and evaluating those documents.
39. Therefore, whatever of the popular narrations have been inserted into the Sacred Scriptures must in no way be considered on a par with myths or other such things, which are more the product of an extravagant imagination than of that striving for truth and simplicity which in the Sacred Books, also of the Old Testament, is so apparent that our ancient sacred writers must be admitted to be clearly superior to the ancient profane writers.
 
The Adam and Eve stories are the first primordial stories that were passed down through Jewish generations. The creation accounts of Genesis are not history books; but rather literary forms employed to describe primordial creation, and to present universal religious themes: that of the fatherhood of God, the free will of man, the disobedience of man, and the chance for salvation. The reader is not supposed to ask questions like, “who were Cain and Abel’s wives?” None of the biblical writers in fact know precisely how many people there were, or how things started out. Again, the earliest stories known concerned Adam and Eve and their family. No stories invovled other people, although of course a reasonable person reading seeking out historical facts would have to assume there were other people around at the time.

None of the Vatican statements on Adam and Eve are conclusive, but are somewhat vaguely worded, so as to verify the Adam and Eve story–that real primordial events are described–but without accounting for all associated historical details. We have to use our brains a little when reading this stuff, or we can begin to sink into the type of so-called thinking that avers there were no dinosaurs because they are not mentioned in the bible, there was no rain before the flood, etc.
Is this vague, too?

Catechism of the Catholic Church

paragraph 360

360 Because of its common origin the human race forms a unity, for “from one ancestor [God] made all nations to inhabit the whole earth”:226

see footnote 226 below

226 Acts 17:26; cf. Tob 8:6.

Acts 17:16
He made from one 8 the whole human race to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he fixed the ordered seasons and the boundaries of their regions,

Tobit 8:6
You made Adam and you gave him his wife Eve to be his help and support; and from these two the human race descended. You said, ‘It is not good for the man to be alone; let us make him a partner like himself.’
 
What about this? Is this vague?

1- The first man was created by God. (De fide.)
2- The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)
3- Man consists of two essential parts–a material body and a spiritual soul. (De fide.)
4- The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.)
5- Every human being possesses an individual soul. (De fide.)
6- Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God. (Sent. Certa.)
7- A creature has the capacity to receive supernatural gifts. (Sent. communis.)
8- The Supernatural presupposes Nature. (Sent communis.)
9- God has conferred on man a supernatural Destiny. (De fide.)
10- Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
11- The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
12- The donum immortalitatis, i.e.,bodily immortality. (De fide.)
13- The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
14- The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)
15- Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)
16- Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
17- Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)
18- Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) D788.
19- Adam’s sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. (De fide.)
20- Original Sin consists in the deprivation of grace caused by the free act of sin committed by the head of the race. (Sent. communis.)
21- Original sin is transmitted by natural generation. (De fide.)
22- In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity. (De fide in regard to Sanctifying Grace and the Donum Immortalitatus. D788 et seq.)
23- Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. (De fide.)
  1. Dogmas - This is De Fide - This is infallible
  2. Doctrines - This is Sent. Certa - This is infallible but has not been formally elevated yet to the level of De Fide
  3. Teachings - Includes Sent. Communis, Sent. pia et probabilis, Sent. communior, and Sent. probabilior - These have varying degrees of certainty and are widely believed. However, they do not rise to the same level as Sent. Certa or De Fide and are therefore not infallible.
 
…and finally this.

Concerning the Historical Character of the First Three Chapters of Genesis
June 30, 1909 (AAS 1 [1909] 567ff; EB 332ff; Dz 2121ff)

I: Do the various exegetical systems excogitated and defended under the guise of science to exclude the literal historical sense of the first three chapters of Genesis rest on a solid foundation?
Answer: In the negative.

II: Notwithstanding the historical character and form of Genesis, the special connection of the first three chapters with one another and with the following chapters, the manifold testimonies of the Scriptures both of the Old and of the New Testaments, the almost unanimous opinion of the holy Fathers and the traditional view which the people of Israel also has handed on and the Church has always held, may it be taught that: the aforesaid three chapters of Genesis Contain not accounts of actual events, accounts, that is, which correspond to objective reality and historical truth, but, either fables derived from the mythologies and cosmogonies of ancient peoples and accommodated by the sacred writer to monotheistic doctrine after the expurgation of any polytheistic error; or allegories and symbols without any foundation in objective reality proposed under the form of history to inculcate religious and philosophical truths; or finally legends in part historical and in part fictitious freely composed with a view to instruction and edification?
Answer: In the negative to both parts.

III: In particular may the literal historical sense be called in doubt in the case of facts narrated in the same chapters which touch the foundations of the Christian religion: as are, among others, the creation of all things by God in the beginning of time; the special creation of man; the formation of the first woman from the first man; the unity of the human race; the original felicity of our first parents in the state of justice, integrity, and immortality; the command given by God to man to test his obedience; the transgression of the divine command at the instigation of the devil under the form of a serpent; the degradation of our first parents from that primeval state of innocence; and the promise of a future Redeemer?
Answer: In the negative.


IV: In the interpretation of those passages in these chapters which the Fathers and Doctors understood in different manners without proposing anything certain and definite, is it lawful, without prejudice to the judgement of the Church and with attention to the analogy of faith, to follow and defend the opinion that commends itself to each one?
Answer: In the affirmative.

V: Must each and every word and phrase occurring in the aforesaid chapters always and necessarily be understood in its literal sense, so that it is never lawful to deviate from it, even when it appears obvious that the diction is employed in an applied sense, either metaphorical or anthropomorphical, and either reason forbids the retention or necessity imposes the abandonment of the literal sense?
Answer: In the negative.

**VI: Provided that the literal and historical sense is presupposed, may certain passages in the same chapters, in the light of the example of the holy Fathers and of the Church itself, be wisely and profitably interpreted in an allegorical and prophetic sense?
Answer: In the affirmative. **

VII: As it was not the mind of the sacred author in the composition of the first chapter of Genesis to give scientific teaching about the internal Constitution of visible things and the entire order of creation, but rather to communicate to his people a popular notion in accord with the current speech of the time and suited to the understanding and capacity of men, must the exactness of scientific language be always meticulously sought for in the interpretation of these matters?
Answer: In the negative.

VIII : In the designation and distinction of the six days mentioned in the first chapter of Genesis may the word Yom (day) be taken either in the literal sense for the natural day or in an applied sense for a certain space of time, and may this question be the subject of free discussion among exegetes?
Answer: In the affirmative.
 
shocktrooper, your cutting and pasting ability is prodigious. Give me a minute and I will address all your points. 🙂
 
shocktrooper;8608256Human Generis- Given at Rome said:
For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents.

The same document also says this:

Pope Pius XII declared that “the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God” (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36).

It seems on the one hand to be accepting that evolution from common ancestory is perfectly acceptable, us evolving from ‘‘pre existing and living matter’’ while at the same time insisting you have to believe that single person that kicked off the human species, which we know is not how human evolution works. In fact, from dna mapping, we know mitochrondrial Eve lived tens of thousands of years before Y chromosone Adam came along. Ironically, Eve came before Adam.

Sarah x 🙂
 
What is vague about this?

HUMANI GENERIS

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII CONCERNING SOME FALSE OPINIONS THREATENING TO UNDERMINE THE FOUNDATIONS OF CATHOLIC DOCTRINE AUGUST 12, 1950
  1. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which through generation is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.
Good afternoon, thistle,

Thank you.

God loves you,
Don
 
…and finally this.

Concerning the Historical Character of the First Three Chapters of Genesis
June 30, 1909 (AAS 1 [1909] 567ff; EB 332ff; Dz 2121ff)

I: Do the various exegetical systems excogitated and defended under the guise of science to exclude the literal historical sense of the first three chapters of Genesis rest on a solid foundation?
Answer: In the negative.

II: Notwithstanding the historical character and form of Genesis, the special connection of the first three chapters with one another and with the following chapters, the manifold testimonies of the Scriptures both of the Old and of the New Testaments, the almost unanimous opinion of the holy Fathers and the traditional view which the people of Israel also has handed on and the Church has always held, may it be taught that: the aforesaid three chapters of Genesis Contain not accounts of actual events, accounts, that is, which correspond to objective reality and historical truth, but, either fables derived from the mythologies and cosmogonies of ancient peoples and accommodated by the sacred writer to monotheistic doctrine after the expurgation of any polytheistic error; or allegories and symbols without any foundation in objective reality proposed under the form of history to inculcate religious and philosophical truths; or finally legends in part historical and in part fictitious freely composed with a view to instruction and edification?
Answer: In the negative to both parts.

III: In particular may the literal historical sense be called in doubt in the case of facts narrated in the same chapters which touch the foundations of the Christian religion: as are, among others, the creation of all things by God in the beginning of time; the special creation of man; the formation of the first woman from the first man; the unity of the human race; the original felicity of our first parents in the state of justice, integrity, and immortality; the command given by God to man to test his obedience; the transgression of the divine command at the instigation of the devil under the form of a serpent; the degradation of our first parents from that primeval state of innocence
; and the promise of a future Redeemer?
Answer: In the negative.

IV: In the interpretation of those passages in these chapters which the Fathers and Doctors understood in different manners without proposing anything certain and definite, is it lawful, without prejudice to the judgement of the Church and with attention to the analogy of faith, to follow and defend the opinion that commends itself to each one?
Answer: In the affirmative.

V: Must each and every word and phrase occurring in the aforesaid chapters always and necessarily be understood in its literal sense, so that it is never lawful to deviate from it, even when it appears obvious that the diction is employed in an applied sense, either metaphorical or anthropomorphical, and either reason forbids the retention or necessity imposes the abandonment of the literal sense?
Answer: In the negative.

VI: Provided that the literal and historical sense is presupposed, may certain passages in the same chapters, in the light of the example of the holy Fathers and of the Church itself, be wisely and profitably interpreted in an allegorical and prophetic sense?
Answer: In the affirmative.

VII: As it was not the mind of the sacred author in the composition of the first chapter of Genesis to give scientific teaching about the internal Constitution of visible things and the entire order of creation, but rather to communicate to his people a popular notion in accord with the current speech of the time and suited to the understanding and capacity of men, must the exactness of scientific language be always meticulously sought for in the interpretation of these matters?
Answer: In the negative.

VIII : In the designation and distinction of the six days mentioned in the first chapter of Genesis may the word Yom (day) be taken either in the literal sense for the natural day or in an applied sense for a certain space of time, and may this question be the subject of free discussion among exegetes?
Answer: In the affirmative.
Good afternoon, shocktrooper,

Ummm, I’m posting this after five long consecutive posts of yours. The rules say we should not make even one long post. I’m writing this note to you instead of reporting you.

These posts make for a lot of unnecessary reading. Could you make a succinct reply in the future?

God loves you,
Don
 
Good afternoon, shocktrooper,

Ummm, I’m posting this after five long consecutive posts of yours. The rules say we should not make even one long post. I’m writing this note to you instead of reporting you.

These posts make for a lot of unnecessary reading. Could you make a succinct reply in the future?

God loves you,
Don
Don,

I am sorry that you feel this is “unnecessary reading”. I am of the opinion that the Church’s REAL teachings are necessary and should not be marginalized or reduced.

Pax Christi.
 
Don,

I am sorry that you feel this is “unnecessary reading”. I am of the opinion that the Church’s REAL teachings are necessary and should not be marginalized or reduced.

Pax Christi.
Good morning, shocktrooper,

I have the same opinion.

But overdoing validation of one tenet, imho, brings in over kill, for which I used the phrase “unnecessary reading”.

And, that doesn’t change the forum rules to keeping posts succinct and avoiding long posts. I did you a favor by posting to you, instead of anonymously reporting the infraction to a moderator.

God loves you,
Don
 
Apologies for my ignorance.

Adam and Eve had two sons etc who then had their own children etc and on and on the geneology goes.
But where did the other women come from for Cain and Abel and others to have their children.
Were there other people at Eden at this time, or was it a bit incestual in those days?

Or does the Bible leave room for various interpretations?

.
Obviously Adam was alone when he was first created but then God made Eve. The only children of Adam and Eve which the Bible mentions are Cain, Abel and Seth but that does not mean that there were not others, including daughters.

In the encyclical Humani generis Pope Pius XII taught that Catholics must believe that all human beings must be the descendants of Adam and Eve. If this were not true it would negate the doctrine of original sin.
 
Shalom

The bible is a prayer book and also a story book of faith and of salvation. The first five books were written in the promise land. The book of Genesis is a book of praising God who is the creator of heaven and earth the God who have save them from the Egyptians. What you read of the 1-2 chapter is way to express their love for God in his love for them.

Is there really Adam and Eve?
Don’t read it literary. But regarding the genealogy of people that is another matter.

God bless.
What is there in the text that leads you to the conclusion that the early chapters of Genesis are to be read as anything other than literal history. Do you believe the patriarchs were historical individuals? If so, how can you accept them and not accept Adam and Eve as historical persons?
 
I did you a favor by posting to you, instead of anonymously reporting the infraction to a moderator.
Another option might be to simply ignore the post or not read it if you found it ‘unnecessary reading’’. Or alternatively, you could have pm’d the poster insteading of bringing this into the public forum where it’s not relevant to the thread discussion - whereas what was posted was relevant to the discussion 🤷
 
In the encyclical Humani generis Pope Pius XII taught that Catholics must believe that all human beings must be the descendants of Adam and Eve. If this were not true it would negate the doctrine of original sin.
Does the church consider Neanderthal Man fully human and therefor had a soul? The reason I ask is we know Neanderthals and H. Sapiens interbred and modern non african populations exhibit something in the area of 4% Neanderthal DNA. mbe.oxfordjournals.org/search?submit=yes&fulltext=neanderthal&x=11&y=14

The dna evidence is clear that there wasnt just one man and one woman from whom all humans descended.

From everything Ive read on these forums I understand than the church embraces science and scientific discovery, much to it’s credit.

But where does that leave the concept of original sin, if we know african and non african populations have a different genetic lineage?

Does the church have a view as to whether H. neanderthal, erectus, habilis etc had souls?

Sarah x 🙂
 
Their is a certain number of members of a population that must exist to continue without extinction due to biological defects. If Adam and Eve were the only ones then we wouldn’t have made it.
 
50 for immediate viability is needed in population size, and 500 for long term succes. There would be too much inbreeding otherwise.
 
Another option might be to simply ignore the post or not read it if you found it ‘unnecessary reading’’. Or alternatively, you could have pm’d the poster insteading of bringing this into the public forum where it’s not relevant to the thread discussion - whereas what was posted was relevant to the discussion 🤷
Good evening, atheistgirl,

Point well taken.

God loves you,
Don
 
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