WH:No Constitutional Rights Issue in Forcing Catholics to Act Against Their Faith

[Dirt]

From the Didache, circa 90-110 AD:
“Chapter 2. The Second Commandment: Grave Sin Forbidden. And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born.”
link>earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html

And concerning Catholic response to Government, from His Holiness Pope Leo XIII:
“15. The one only reason which men have for not obeying is when anything is demanded of them which is openly repugnant to the natural or the divine law, for it is equally unlawful to command to do anything in which the law of nature or the will of God is violated. If, therefore, it should happen to any one to be compelled to prefer one or the other, viz., to disregard either the commands of God or those of rulers, he must obey Jesus Christ, who commands us to “give to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s,”[18] and must reply courageously after the example of the Apostles: “We ought to obey God rather than men.”[19] And yet there is no reason why those who so behave themselves should be accused of refusing obedience; for, if the will of rulers is opposed to the will and the laws of God, they themselves exceed the bounds of their own power and pervert justice; nor can their authority then be valid, which, when there is no justice, is null.”
link>papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13civ.htm

 

[Linda_Marie]

No “Constitutional Rights Issues” in Violating Religious Liberties? White House Doesn’t Get It

Carney’s line about there being no constitutional rights at stake is an affront to religious liberty and conscience.

Thomas Jefferson wrote that “no provision in our Constitution ought to be dearer to man than that which protects the rights of conscience against the enterprise of civil authority.” James Madison held that conscience is “the most sacred of all property.” George Washington stated that “the establishment of Civil and Religious Liberty was the Motive that induced me to the field of battle.”

Our Founders understood the vital importance of protecting conscience and religious liberty. Why doesn’t Jay Carney?

Why doesn’t the President?

**Originally Posted by CMatt25 **

I’m on this lifelong faith journey working on what I believe. All I really know right now is while He specifically did not mention the words abortion or abortifacients in the Gospel, He did talk about caring for people’s health. As we journey along our walks, may God bless you and all who walk in faith. Peace.

Is pregnancy a disease that needs preventing or curing?

How is it health care to dose a healthy functioning body with synthetic hormones to render it infertile? especially when said hormones have been classified by WHO as class 1 carcinogens alongside asbestos? How is the pill health care when it causes so much damage to women?

Imagine a substance has been proven to cause blood clots, liver damage and many types of cancer. The world cancer authority lists it as a Class 1 carcinogen, but the substance is willingly consumed by more and more people. The authorities do nothing to warn the public, and instead, they actively promote its consumption.<…>
The IARC listing was made after a review of all studies available in 2005. Since then, the Mayo clinic has published another meta-analysis linking the Pill to cancer. The researchers looked at 39 studies published since 1980, and concluded that the pill increases the chance of breast cancer in young women by 150%. (5)

Breast cancer is not the only cancer risk. The Pill also increases the risk of liver and cervical cancer. Women are also more likely to have an abnormal PAP smear while taking the Pill.
<…>
The Pill increases the risk for life-threatening blood clots, particularly deep vein thrombosis (DVT), but also for heart attack and stroke.
<…>
The Pill causes insulin resistance. This contributes to the cardiovascular risk, but it also increases the risk for diabetes and Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome (PCOS). <…>
The Pill increases the likelihood of depression. <…>
Certain types of Pill cause bone loss. <…>
The Pill lowers libido (13), which is a tragic side effect when the Pill is taken for sole purpose of being able to enjoy sex. <…>
Finally, the Pill has been linked with Autoimmune disease.[Lupus]

There is sufficient evidence that far from being health care, the Pill causes disease and illnesses in healthy people.
Why should anyone be forced to provide this, free of charge, much less those who object on religious grounds?

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

 

[L_piperatus]

Is pregnancy a disease that needs preventing or curing?

How is it health care to dose a healthy functioning body with synthetic hormones to render it infertile? especially when said hormones have been classified by WHO as class 1 carcinogens alongside asbestos? How is the pill health care when it causes so much damage to women?

There is sufficient evidence that far from being health care, the Pill causes disease and illnesses in healthy people.
Why should anyone be forced to provide this, free of charge, much less those who object on religious grounds?

Exactly. Contraception is not healthcare. Sterilization is not healthcare. Abortion is not healthcare. I find it annoying that so many activists in the mass media call these things “women’s health” and “healthcare”. I’m a healthcare professional and I find these statements untrue from a professional standpoint.

 

[KCT]

It’s time for the American Catholics to take a stand. Our leadership in the church needs to stand firm and just say, “No. We will not comply” This would set the tone for any further discussions. As a Knight I find it entirely plausible that if we, as a united front, stand on our God given rights as described in the Declaration of Independence, can win the day. Catholics as a whole need to “grow a pair”, and stop capitulating on these defining pieces of legislation.

Most Catholics do not understand, because they have not been taught, the whole contraception issue. To me, that’s a huge part of the problem here. They can’t back what they don’t understand.

I also believe that many people have not been taught to think and reason, therefore they may not see the larger threat - the gov’t dictating what private business must do.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Most Catholics do not understand, because they have not been taught, the whole contraception issue. To me, that’s a huge part of the problem here. They can’t back what they don’t understand.

I also believe that many people have not been taught to think and reason, therefore they may not see the larger threat - the gov’t dictating what private business must do.

Which is ironic, because the historical tenets of the Catholic religion are “Faith + Reason”. We believe that both faith AND reason and faculties given to us by God to help us understand Him and the world He gave us.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I find it annoying also, along with all the other misconceptions presented. However, when there is no debate and only quick vague response’s and released statements, all unchallenged, then this is the temporary situation we reside in. What I find in particular disturbing is that its all simply dismissed as a Republican ploy.

And to even mention Seperation of Church and State? Wow, that is simply amazing.

 

[irishpatrick]

Exactly. Contraception is not healthcare. Sterilization is not healthcare. Abortion is not healthcare. I find it annoying that so many activists in the mass media call these things “women’s health” and “healthcare”. I’m a healthcare professional and I find these statements untrue from a professional standpoint.

It is obviously not healthcare, but that fight will not be won by Catholics because so many Catholics contracept and have no intention on stopping.

The Catholic Church’s position has been weakened for many reasons.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

It is obviously not healthcare, but that fight will not be won by Catholics because so many Catholics contracept and have no intention on stopping.

The Catholic Church’s position has been weakened for many reasons.

The Church’s position can never be weakened, for it is protected by the Holy Spirit. People have chosen to submit themselves to the ways of the world rather than to the will of God. They have used their free will to become in the Church, but of the world, rather than be in the world, but of God.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Exactly. Contraception is not healthcare. Sterilization is not healthcare. Abortion is not healthcare. I find it annoying that so many activists in the mass media call these things “women’s health” and “healthcare”. I’m a healthcare professional and I find these statements untrue from a professional standpoint.

Women’s lib advocates then go and deliberately fuzz and obfuscate by chanting about a woman’s “right to choose”.

But when we ask: “choose what?”, then they get nasty enough that WE back off.

I propose that from now on, we change the debate: whenever anyone says “right to choose”, we come right back with, "you mean: right to kill!".

[It’s got to be single syllables.]

Texas has successfully passed a court challenge that before a woman undergoes an abortion, she must first have a sonogram.

Every state should pass a law like that.

AND every state should also rename “right to choose” … and state that women do NOT have a “right to kill”.

 

[irishpatrick]

The Church’s position can never be weakened, for it is protected by the Holy Spirit. People have chosen to submit themselves to the ways of the world rather than to the will of God. They have used their free will to become in the Church, but of the world, rather than be in the world, but of God.

We are witnessing the Church being weak in the world. Jesus promised the gates of hades will not prevail, yet that obviously means the gates of hades will try to prevail. The Catholic Church is in a very weak position “in the USA” for the simple fact that so many Catholics ignore the faith. None of this would be happening (none) if Catholics had stayed obedient to the faith.

Catholics are at fault for this mess because so many Catholics place their faith somewhere around 100 on a list of 100 priorities.

As the Church goes, so goes the country, and to a great extent the world at large.

 

[JimG]

It is obviously not healthcare, but that fight will not be won by Catholics because so many Catholics contracept and have no intention on stopping.

The Catholic Church’s position has been weakened for many reasons.

That is what the administration is counting on–a weak Church, contracepting Catholics.

But contracepting Catholics should not be complacent. Once religious liberty is taken, it doesn’t stop there.

Catholic institutions may be forced out of business. Catholic hospitals, Catholic charities who serve the poor and most needy, Catholic free medical clinics, Catholic nuns who serve the inner city poor, Catholic schools who serve the inner city poor. (There is a Catholic school in my area which serves mostly inner-city non-Catholic minorities. It remains open as a service to that constituency. It could be forced to close.) A host of examples could be cited.

The HHS mandate says okay, keep doing your good works, but you have to forfeit your Catholic moral principles or shut down or be fined out of existence.

 

[irishpatrick]

That is what the administration is counting on–a weak Church, contracepting Catholics.

But contracepting Catholics should not be complacent. Once religious liberty is taken, it doesn’t stop there.

Catholic institutions may be forced out of business. Catholic hospitals, Catholic charities who serve the poor and most needy, Catholic free medical clinics, Catholic nuns who serve the inner city poor, Catholic schools who serve the inner city poor. (There is a Catholic school in my area which serves mostly inner-city non-Catholic minorities. It remains open as a service to that constituency. It could be forced to close.) A host of examples could be cited.

The HHS mandate says okay, keep doing your good works, but you have to forfeit your Catholic moral principles or shut down or be fined out of existence.

Most Catholics, it would seem, do not have well formed consciences. We are in a mess across the board because such smaller percentages of all USA Catholics do not follow the faith. Consider:

Contraception.
Divorce.
Abortion.
Fornication.
Low rates of Marriage.
Low numbers of children born to Catholic couples.
Living together.
Materialism.
So-called same sex marriage.

Had Catholics remained true to the faith, none of those things on that list would be a major problem. We are inviting politicians to take away our religious freedoms because we do not care about those freedoms–in a general sense.

And, considering human nature, it seems unlikely that a majority of Catholics will say anything about this situation, because that would mean they have to think about their own lives.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

We are witnessing the Church being weak in the world. Jesus promised the gates of hades will not prevail, yet that obviously means the gates of hades will try to prevail. The Catholic Church is in a very weak position “in the USA” for the simple fact that so many Catholics ignore the faith. None of this would be happening (none) if Catholics had stayed obedient to the faith.

Catholics are at fault for this mess because so many Catholics place their faith somewhere around 100 on a list of 100 priorities.

As the Church goes, so goes the country, and to a great extent the world at large.

Yes. I agree that the Church’s standing has been significantly weakened. For about 100 years, it was the Republicans that either directly or indirectly attacked the Church, now it appears to be the Democrat Party’s turn. It seems that Catholicism is an anathema to American sensibilities. Maybe its because they can’t vote for the Pope? and there is a subconscious feeling that if you can’t vote for someone, their authority is nullified? That was generally the founders’ feelings on the matter, they constantly railed against the evils of “popery” and of the slave like “papists” in early documents.

 

[Tigg]

Exactly. Contraception is not healthcare. Sterilization is not healthcare. Abortion is not healthcare. I find it annoying that so many activists in the mass media call these things “women’s health” and “healthcare”. I’m a healthcare professional and I find these statements untrue from a professional standpoint.

Thank you…I’ve been wondering how confused those in the medical field must be now or anyone having had basic biology, since the health industry has re-defined itself. I guess pregnancy is now a disease which needs to be treated. Interestingly enough, a link was recently posted in which Abby Johnson (whom I find to be a credible source) said that Planned Parenthood is now putting pressure on to terminate maternity benefits. Soooo, do I have it straight now?? Abortion is a health issue and a right, but having a baby isn’t!

 

[LisaA]

The truely baffeling thing is how could a Catholic support the most pro abortion president ever. His stance on this matter should be enough for Catholics to reject him as a potential president.

Apologies for being a bit off topic but this is something I’ve wondered about since day one. Not only is he miltantly pro abortion but he even voted NOT to assist babies that had survived the horror of an abortion! He said “We can’t get between a woman and her doctor.” YIKES

Then when interviewed he mentioned that were one of his daughter to become sexually active that he wouldn’t want them “Punished with a baby.”

This man’s attitude was CLEAR and EVIDENT. Anyone who was awake in 2008 could have learned about his attitude toward life issues. Yet Catholics are voted for him in the majority! When people asked me if I would even consider Obama I said his stance on life was a non starter. Had his opponent not been pro-life I simply would not have voted.

Can someone tell me what millions of Catholics were thinking when they pulled the lever for this militantly anti-life candidate? They had to know that some day it would come to this kind of a face off.

Lisa

 

[KCT]

Which is ironic, because the historical tenets of the Catholic religion are “Faith + Reason”. We believe that both faith AND reason and faculties given to us by God to help us understand Him and the world He gave us.

Since the watering down of catechesis, we have lost this. Now, when we need it, there are few (comparatively) who are prepared to do anything.

I know lots of people here are, but considering how many ‘Catholics’ there are in the US, we’re a small minority.

Priests, bishops and lay people used to be willing to be jailed or die for their faith. Not anymore. If the bishops capitulate, I think they will lose credibility. (esp w/ people who already think contraception is OK)

If the administration doesn’t back down, I would love to see bishops willing to be jailed or fined for what they believe.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well, from some of what I heard on Chris Matthews tonight, it was Sebelious who pushed the issue. I think it was newadvent.org which had an article with the head line stating the same thing.

I think she and the administration thought that because most Catholics use ABC, it wouldn’t be a political issue.

However, although Catholics may use ABC, they consider that their choice and despite their not following the teachings of the Church, reject the government telling their Church to go against their moral teachings.

This is backfiring for the administration and I wouldn’t be surprised to see Obama reverse the regulation followed by Sebelious announcing her resignation so she can spend more time with her family.

Jim

 

[LisaA]

Well, from some of what I heard on Chris Matthews tonight, it was Sebelious who pushed the issue. I think it was newadvent.org which had an article with the head line stating the same thing.

I think she and the administration thought that because most Catholics use ABC, it wouldn’t be a political issue.

However, although Catholics may use ABC, they consider that their choice and despite their not following the teachings of the Church, reject the government telling their Church to go against their moral teachings.

This is backfiring for the administration and I wouldn’t be surprised to see Obama reverse the regulation followed by Sebelious announcing her resignation so she can spend more time with her family.

Jim

Interesting! Does Sebelius have a family? I have visions of a very militant anti-child feminist. She was a huge supporter of Tiller the Killer and I was HORRIFIED when she was named HHS Secretary. Her totally secular outlook on health issues was very apparent. I heard she was elected Governor on a bit of a fluke when the more appealing candidate dropped out. There was a scandal about PP in that state where records of underage abortions and not reporting potential incest/rape ‘disappeared’ and so far she skated on being charged with anything but the word is she was knee deep in that as well. She’s a good candidate to be thrown under the bus.

The irony is the narrow minded position of the Left that somehow they missed the real issue is not contraception, abortion or healthcare. It is so clearly a violation of the Constitution. But then that silly document means nothing to Obama (or Ruth Bader Ginsburg)

Perhaps a silver lining in decreasing Obama’s re-election prospects. We can hope!

Lisa

 

[Linda_Marie]

This is backfiring for the administration and I wouldn’t be surprised to see Obama reverse the regulation followed by Sebelious announcing her resignation so she can spend more time with her family.

Jim

I don’t think so. Looks like he’s not backing off one inch.

Obama doubles down on new contraception rule at Democratic retreat
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=643481