What about the wall? (Relevant Issues: Cont'd)

[SeraficLeo]

(Don’t tell my husband I said that. He’s retired Army.)

Your secrets safe with me!
(P.S. - God bless you and your husband.)

 

[Dracarys]

You need to be listening to engineering and environmental experts, not political ideologues

This article acts as if the wall will be operated in a vacumn. We will still have the area patrolled with agents, our own drones etc. They would have to bring a 30 ft ladder to the site and another one to get down. I’d like to see someone doing that without being seen. The article was silly.

I give as much creedence to these people as I do the hopelessly biased global warming crowd. The Homeland Security people have real world experience and they know how the Invaders work.

 

[Dracarys]

guess it depends on your priorities.

Yes it does. I guess you have no concern for American lives, property, jobs, or money.

 

[Ender]

This article acts as if the wall will be operated in a vacumn

Update: At a recent hearing, acting Secretary of Defense Patrick Shanahan said the Pentagon has sufficient funds ($1.5B) to build at least 256 miles of the wall. It will go up at a rate of about a half mile per day.

 

[Dracarys]

Update: At a recent hearing, acting Secretary of Defense Patrick Shanahan said the Pentagon has sufficient funds ($1.5B) to build at least 256 miles of the wall. It will go up at a rate of about a half mile per day.

That is good news.

 

[blackforest]

Their claims are correct regardless of whether or not they provide a solution you like.

I personally can’t see how a wall could possibly fail to provide increased border protection or security.

“Build a 50-foot wall, and someone will bring a 51-foot ladder,” Janet Napolitano.

This article acts as if the wall will be operated in a vacumn. We will still have the area patrolled with agents, our own drones etc.

I think you just came up with the already existing solution . . .

Yes it does. I guess you have no concern for American lives, property, jobs, or money.

That link demonstrates how that money can be spent on infrastructure, education, job creation, and a military presence to monitor increasing drug trafficking in the Caribbean. If you don’t want those things, I guess you just hate America.

Kidding. I won’t stoop to that same level of rhetoric.

 

[Dracarys]

Their claims are correct regardless of whether or not they provide a solution you like.

I have told you before, just because you make a claim does not make it so. They are only correct in theirs and your mind.

“Build a 50-foot wall, and someone will bring a 51-foot ladder,” Janet Napolitano.

So your going to use an Obama appointee as a reference? That point means nothing to me. Why not believe current Homeland Security who clearly states that wall will work and is needed?

That link demonstrates how that money can be spent on infrastructure, education, job creation, and a military presence to monitor increasing drug trafficking in the Caribbean. If you don’t want those things, I guess you just hate America.

You are the one who feels protecting our borders is not a priority. For the record, I do support a large military presence t the border. So please enlighten us as to your plan to protect the United States from foreign invaders to the south.

 

[blackforest]

I have told you before, just because you make a claim does not make it so. They are only correct in theirs and your mind.

Then by all means, please correct these experts by elaborating on why they are wrong.

So your going to use an Obama appointee as a reference? That point means nothing to me. Why not believe current Homeland Security who clearly states that wall will work and is needed?

She makes a valid point.

You are the one who feels protecting our borders is not a priority.

This is a strawman.

So please enlighten us as to your plan to protect the United States from foreign invaders to the south.

I would support our current wall-free enforcement to block out any gangs, drug kingpins, etc. In accordance with the plan laid out by our bishops, I’d stop referring to legal asylees as “invaders” and start giving them a plan to enter, work, and apply for asylum and/or citizenship.

 

[SeraficLeo]

Their claims are correct regardless of whether or not they provide a solution you like.

Please refrain from putting words in other people’s mouths that they never actually said. It is a dishonest argumentative tactic. I never made the claim that the authors claims were incorrect; nor did I say they failed to provide a solution I liked.

“Build a 50-foot wall, and someone will bring a 51-foot ladder,” Janet Napolitano.

Which at least requires you to acquire a 51’ foot ladder before trespassing illegally into someone else’s country, and to carry that 51’ ladder to the barrier: if you don’t have that and can’t do that, then you can’t hop the barrier, now can you? Hence even a stand-alone wall would provide extra security by way of deterrent, which is exactly what I claimed. But thank you and Janet Napolitano for proving my point for me. That is very generous of you both.

 

[blackforest]

My point - and has been all along - is that whether or not the authors propose a solution or not is irrelevant. It certainly isn’t a valid reason to dismiss or refuse to read the links, as you seem to think. I didn’t put these words in your mouth; you did:

I’m only interested in reading them if they supply alternative options that could reasonably guarantee border security.

Which at least requires you to acquire a 51’ foot ladder before trespassing illegally into someone else’s country, and to carry that 51’ ladder to the barrier: if you don’t have that and can’t do that, then you can’t hop the barrier, now can you?

Napolitano is largely speaking metaphorically. She’s simply pointing out that walls are ineffective. That’s putting it diplomatically. The idea of a wall is a joke.

Some of the stuff is downright humorous, if it weren’t so pitiful.

Drug catapult mounted on Arizona-Mexico border fence is first of its kind

There's a GoFundMe to 'Buy Ladders' to Get Over Trump's Border Wall - Business Insider

But the practical aspects are not so funny. Put on your critical thinking cap.

Have you ever been to the border lands? Are you aware of the terrain there? Are you aware that the Rio Grande is U.S. territory, but the wall would have to be built on the land next to it? That means that asylees only need literally to wade into the river to be legally inside the U.S. and exercise their legal right to asylum. As a Catholic and human rights advocate, I’m all for it. But to the fearful and xenophobic who don’t want to see them exercise that right, the wall defeats its own purpose when it’s built there.

Are you aware that there are treaties prohibiting the construction on the Rio Grande flood plain? Are you aware of the ramifications of building a border wall that slices through Native lands?

Jaguars are one of many species that migrate between the U.S. and Mexico and are threatened with extinction in this region. What happens when their access to migration is walled off?

Are you aware of tunnels as an alternative to a wall?

Are you aware of the extensive network of gang members aiding migrants across the border? It’s just like prohibition of alcohol; prohibition of a lot of things creates gang activity.

Until at least an equal amount of focus is placed on the visa over-stayers who make the majority of undocumented immigrants - not just selective outrage toward the poor, dark people - I stand firmly behind the notion that the wall represents racism and xenophobia.

 

[Ender]

For the record, I do support a large military presence at the border. So please enlighten us as to your plan to protect the United States from foreign invaders to the south.

You are not likely to make much progress in a discussion with someone who believes trying to stop an influx of 75-100K illegals a month is racist and xenophobic, or that carrying a 50 foot ladder through the desert is somehow a realistic approach to getting over a wall.

“U.S. Border Patrol said a drug catapult mounted to the Arizona-Mexico border fence is the first one of its kind that area agents have encountered.” (Business Insider)

I’m surprised they would bother with this given that they could just bring them through legal entry points with all the other illegal drugs. Or bother with tunnels.

 

[blackforest]

You are not likely to make much progress in a discussion with someone who believes trying to stop an influx of 75-100K illegals a month is racist and xenophobic, or that carrying a 50 foot ladder through the desert is somehow a realistic approach to getting over a wall.

‘You Build a 20-Foot Wall, They'll Build a 21-Foot Ladder’ | Voice of San Diego

 

[Ender]

Most of this article was about drug tunnels, which actually require a pretty sophisticated effort to build and maintain, and also which refutes the assertion that most drugs come in through legal entry points. That said, given the effort and cost to build them, it’s not likely they will be used to smuggle people which certainly compared to drugs brings in a lot less money.

While it is is surely true that there will always be efforts to confound and overcome the obstacles put in their way, that is no reason not to build the obstacles in the first place. The piece ended by quoting a border patrol agent:

Agents have a pretty good sense, however, that more resources are on the way. And that, at least, is welcome news.

“Whatever they give us, we’ll take it. That’s my opinion,”

That’s my opinion too: doing something even if it’s not perfect is a lot better than doing nothing.

 

[Dracarys]

Thanks for those links! The failure of the administration to have not consulted engineering analysis is frightening.

There is no evidence they did not consult engineers. The article just says this particular engineer disagrees. He is probably an anti President Trump person just waiting for an excuse to critisize the administration. The critic is just another sky is falling alarmist.

 

[Dracarys]

Napolitano is largely speaking metaphorically. She’s simply pointing out that walls are ineffective. That’s putting it diplomatically. The idea of a wall is a joke.

I don’t see it as metaphor at all. I think this Obama appointee is dumb enough to believe Illegal aliens are going to trounce through the desert carrying a 50 ft ladder. I have a 30 ft ladder I use on my properties, and it takes two of us to get it in place over short distances. Border agents will see a party of several aliens approaching the wall with a ladder a mile away. They would be hard to miss! You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

That means that asylees only need literally to wade into the river to be legally inside the U.S. and exercise their legal right to asylum. As a Catholic and human rights advocate, I’m all for it. But to the fearful and xenophobic who don’t want to see them exercise that right, the wall defeats its own purpose when it’s built there.

Are you saying all Illegal foreign Invaders have a RIGHT to claim access to the US? So you are a globalist. We are all just citizens of the world right? The US laws and borders mean nothing to you. Just let them all pour in by the millions right? No limits!

Why is it I never hear people like you ever say we should offer prayers and money for US citizens who suffer from crime, lost jobs, property damage, disease, and other issues all brought on by illegal alien invasion? Why doesn’t the pope offer assistance to these Americans? It seems your pity is just for the criminals who force their way into this country. That seems very one sided and hypocritical to me.

 

[Dracarys]

You are not likely to make much progress in a discussion with someone who believes trying to stop an influx of 75-100K illegals a month is racist and xenophobic

True, but I keep trying to pin these people down on what measures they do support to secure our borders. They are long on critisism, but short on solutions that will work. Personally I think they are all globalist who don’t want to admit it.

 

[blackforest]

I think this Obama appointee is dumb enough to believe Illegal aliens are going to trounce through the desert carrying a 50 ft ladder.

Take a deep breath.

Although it’s more than plausible to take the right 50-foot ladder through the desert (see here: 50 foot fire escape ladder for sale | eBay) Napolitano is making the point that any ICE/CBP agent can tell you - desperate people will always find a way over, under, through, or around a border. https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/immigration/article150214962.html

Are you saying all Illegal foreign Invaders have a RIGHT to claim access to the US?

No, I’m saying that people seeking asylum have a right to claim access to the US. This right is well-established and legally indisputable.

 

[Dracarys]

She makes a valid point.

She is an obsolete bureaucrat who is no longer in that position. I believe current Homeland Security people who have said this is a "crisis.’

This is a strawman.

You call anything you disagree with a strawman. I don’t think you understand the meaning of that term.

would support our current wall-free enforcement to block out any gangs, drug kingpins, etc. In accordance with the plan laid out by our bishops, I’d

Really! Under our current plan we have illegal Invaders streaming in our great country at 75000 plus. How is that working out? Bishops and the pope(build bridges not walls Francis) know theology, but they don’t know how to secure thousands of miles of land. I challenge them to come out of their ivory tower and talk to people who have their property litterd and deficated upon, threatened and assaulted by illegal Invaders, harmed by MS 13 gang members who should never be here, and denied a job. Where is the bishops compassion for these Americans?

 

[Dracarys]

Although it’s more than plausible to take the right 50-foot ladder through the desert (see here:

That will work if you are in a room dropping the ladder down, but if you are at the base of a 50 Ft wall how will you throw it to the top and secure it? Next you have to have another 50 ft. ladder to get down the other side. As I said all these efforts will certainly delay illegal Invaders long enough to draw the attention of border agents.

No, I’m saying that people seeking asylum have a right to claim access to the US. This right is well-established and legally indisputable.

What percentage of illegal alien Invaders qualify for this? If they truly do qualify they can go right to any legal point of entry and submit their claim. Why are they cutting and scaling fences if they have a legal right to enter? Yo don’t make any sense.

I am still waiting to hear a legitimant working plan to secure our borders. I don’t mean vague theory from bishops locked away in Rome.

 

[blackforest]

That will work if you are in a room dropping the ladder down, but if you are at the base of a 50 Ft wall how will you throw it to the top and secure it? Next you have to have another 50 ft. ladder to get down the other side. As I said all these efforts will certainly delay illegal Invaders long enough to draw the attention if border agents.

People on the other side waiting. Consider reading up on this. The author also provides those border-securing ideas that you’re demanding.

And please, for the love of all saints, learn the difference between asylum seekers and “illegal invaders.” This isn’t Red Dawn, here. It’s unarmed people exercising a legal right.

What percentage . . . qualify for this?

It’s very subjective, usually subject to the whims of a given administration. But they do have a right to seek it.

If they truly do qualify they can go right to any legal point of entry and submit their claim.

They are too often turned away illegally. The law allows for the opportunity to seek asylum regardless of whether the entry occurred through an official port.

I am still waiting to hear a legitimant working plan to secure our borders. I don’t mean vague theory from bishops locked away in Rome.

Bishops in Rome have every right to tell Catholics how to treat others. Such conduct will have some impact on foreign and domestic policy.