What are the “objective moralities/truths”? Is there a list?

[goout]

o_mlly:

No, I do not realize that and, if true, that would be regrettable. You do realize that no women who follow Catholic teaching have never directly aborted their child?

There are two Catholic churches. One one run by the vicar of Christ comprising all the teachings of the holy Roman Catholic Church. And there are all of you.

The church run by the pontiff represents theological perfection. Which no doubt most, if not all Catholics are trying to acheive. But personally, I go with the second church. Which is all of you.

I don’t expect perfection. I don’t expect to be discussing morality with saints. I don’t believe that anyone can fulfill all the requireme ts of being a good Catholic. It is beyong anything that mere mortals could hope to acheive (which is why you have confession).

So if someone aske me what Catholics think of abortion and the largest group of women who have them are Catholics, then my response would be: ‘they appear to be in favour of it’. Likewise the situation with contraception and gay marriage and sex for the fun of it etc etc.

Yes, I know what Rome decries. I know what the catechism says. But I also know what most Catholics believe when push comes to shove.

So yeah, if a woman follows Catholic teachings then she will never have an abortion. She will never use contraception. She will only have sex if it is ‘open for procreation’. But let’s keep the discussion with at least one foot in reality.

There are two physics: The official physics that you see in books and experiments, and the physics of my dope smoking college professor (great prof though)

Do you see the problem with your “logic”?

Brad, have you reached your potential yet?

 

[Dan123]

Seems more like teaching kids that addition is evil and you shouldn’t do it and then one day their teenage hormones to do math get the better of them and they lack the knowledge to do addition correctly and end up multiplying by accident.

 

[Bradskii]

It’s not meant to be an excercise in logic. It’s just pointing out something thaf is pretty obvious to me but which a lot of people let slide. So it’s not the case that, for example, Catholics don’t believe in ssm. It’s the Catholic church that doesn’t. Most Catholics have no problem with it.

I find it’s a distinction that needs to be noted on ocassion.

 

[Bradskii]

If a woman is trying to have a baby then every time she has a period, there is a good chance she is disposing of a human life. As far as you are concerned.

Don’t you think this information should be passed on to all women so that they are aware of the actions they are taking? If what you say is true, then surely they would be horrified beyond measure.

The fact that a lot of women do know this and could care less should tell you something. Are they heartless and unfeeling? Or is it simply that they don’t consider it a big deal. Because, hey, it’s just a few cells. It’s not like they are tossing a baby in the trash.

 

[goout]

It’s not meant to be an excercise in logic. It’s just pointing out something thaf is pretty obvious to me but which a lot of people let slide. So it’s not the case that, for example, Catholics don’t believe in ssm. It’s the Catholic church that doesn’t. Most Catholics have no problem with it.

I find it’s a distinction that needs to be noted on ocassion.

In the context of this thread that looks for objective truth:
Your observation proves the point. The Church simply point to truths that are objectively real and true and good.
If you base your truth on the behavior and opinions of individuals or groups, that is subejctive.

 

[o_mlly]

There are two Catholic churches. …

Please read our creed: “I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church.”

We are one Church and, like a jewel, the church has multiple facets. The church as institution, hierarchical in structure, provides governance and protects our deposit of faith. The church as community (“all of you”) consists of all who believe, profess and strive to live the Catholic faith.

The church run by the pontiff represents theological perfection. Which no doubt most, if not all Catholics are trying to acheive. …

Yes, we are called to holiness, to perfection. That command is biblical. All practicing Catholics obey that commandment in as much as they have the grace to do so. There is no second Catholic church for those who believe “nearly holy” and “moderately imperfect” are the goals.

I don’t expect perfection. I don’t expect to be discussing morality with saints. I don’t believe that anyone can fulfill all the requireme ts of being a good Catholic. It is beyong anything that mere mortals could hope to acheive (which is why you have confession).

The only requirement to being a Catholic is to be an admitted sinner with the desire to be a saint. One need not be a saint to know or express what saintliness consists in. And on the path to saintliness, one cannot be forgiven unless one intends to amend their lives and sin no more.

As to how can mere mortals can hope for sainthood:

They [apostles] were exceedingly astonished and said among themselves, “Then who can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “For human beings it is impossible, but not for God. All things are possible for God” (Mark 10:26-27).

So if someone aske me what Catholics think of abortion and the largest group of women who have them are Catholics, then my response would be: ‘they appear to be in favour of it’. Likewise the situation with contraception and gay marriage and sex for the fun of it etc etc.

All Catholics are sinners but no practicing Catholic is in favor of sin, especially their own. We repent, ask forgiveness, promise to amend and, then, repeat the process for as many times as it takes to order ourselves to God’s will.

Yes, I know what Rome decries. I know what the catechism says. But I also know what most Catholics believe when push comes to shove.

What Catholics believe “when push comes to shove” is that redefining sin to be no longer sin just will not do.

So yeah, if a woman follows Catholic teachings then she will never have an abortion. She will never use contraception. She will only have sex if it is ‘open for procreation’. But let’s keep the discussion with at least one foot in reality.

Catholics have had abortions, have used contraception, have committed fornication and adultery. The reality is that no Catholic believes those acts are not sins. We try to keep both feet in that reality.

 

[goout]

Lately, whenever I’m debating Athiests and I appeal to “objective truths” or “objective moralities”, in my aurgument for the existance of God, l’ve been getting countered with “which objective morals are we supposed to follow?” Is there a list somewhere? How do we know one set of objective morals/truths is better then another set?

At the heart and source of objective truth, you have a person, not a list.
Morality is not fully contained by lists of prohibitions. Morality points to the good, or to a person’s beatitude. This beatitude is much wider than a list of statements about morality.
The highest good is to exist in relationship with the creator. To have being. Since we are not responsible for our own being, we look to the source of being, or act of being. God.

God is The Good itself. Objectively speaking, morality is summed up in a person, or in a being, not a list.

 

[Gorgias]

The fact that a lot of women do know this and could care less should tell you something.

It does. It tells me that it’s a natural process.

Or is it simply that they don’t consider it a big deal. Because, hey, it’s just a few cells. It’s not like they are tossing a baby in the trash.

No… now that’s spin!

 

[Bradskii]

Bradskii:

The fact that a lot of women do know this and could care less should tell you something.

It does. It tells me that it’s a natural process.

Or is it simply that they don’t consider it a big deal. Because, hey, it’s just a few cells. It’s not like they are tossing a baby in the trash.

No… now that’s spin!

If they care less because it’s a natural process - you have just said that, then why don’t they care less if the natural process rejects a baby at 5 months?

 

[Bradskii]

If the vast majority of Catholics say that fornication, contraception, sex just for the hell of it, ssm and abortions are sins but they continually reject those teachings by their own actions, time and time and time again, then I am forced into one of two conclusions.

One, they are the worst hypochrites imaginable (and I am being kind in just using the term hypochrite) or they do not consider them to be sins.

And again, if they slipped up now and then and just fell off the wagon only on the odd occasion, then I would sympathise with their efforts to remain good Catholics. But this I do not see. The majority of Catholics actively reject some of the most basic teachings of the church on a regular doesn’t-apply-to -me basis.

 

[Bradskii]

Bradskii:

It’s not meant to be an excercise in logic. It’s just pointing out something thaf is pretty obvious to me but which a lot of people let slide. So it’s not the case that, for example, Catholics don’t believe in ssm. It’s the Catholic church that doesn’t. Most Catholics have no problem with it.

I find it’s a distinction that needs to be noted on ocassion.

In the context of this thread that looks for objective truth:
Your observation proves the point. The Church simply point to truths that are objectively real and true and good.
If you base your truth on the behavior and opinions of individuals or groups, that is subejctive.

Just saying it don’t make it so. Weren’t we discussing the role of harm in this context? If you say something is wrong, then I need some concrete evidence that you are right. Pointing to the catechism doesn’t count.

 

[Gorgias]

If they care less because it’s a natural process - you have just said that, then why don’t they care less if the natural process rejects a baby at 5 months?

Take your cue from journalism: what happens across the world is a tragedy at a much different scale from what happens next door. And, at five-months-pregnant, the loss of a baby is much more deeply felt than what happens next door. Not knowing what deaths occur across the world – or prior to knowledge of one’s pregnancy – is very different from what happens once you’ve realized your carrying a child. If you can’t see that distinction, then we’re really at loggerheads here…

 

[goout]

goout:

Bradskii:

It’s not meant to be an excercise in logic. It’s just pointing out something thaf is pretty obvious to me but which a lot of people let slide. So it’s not the case that, for example, Catholics don’t believe in ssm. It’s the Catholic church that doesn’t. Most Catholics have no problem with it.

I find it’s a distinction that needs to be noted on ocassion.

In the context of this thread that looks for objective truth:
Your observation proves the point. The Church simply point to truths that are objectively real and true and good.
If you base your truth on the behavior and opinions of individuals or groups, that is subejctive.

Just saying it don’t make it so. Weren’t we discussing the role of harm in this context? If you say something is wrong, then I need some concrete evidence that you are right. Pointing to the catechism doesn’t count.

If you are going to redefine words, then this discussion is pointless.
Subjective is something that is (simply speaking) determined arbitrarily by an individual. Truth is “subject to” my opinion. There is no “object” outside the person as a solid reference point.

“Jews are not human beings”. That is a self-warped subjective veiwpoint that is unhinged from objective truth. It subjects human beings to opinion and whim.
Subjectivity leads to evil, sad to say.

Some of you who are academics can probably pin the language down with more precision.

Please fire away.

 

[Bradskii]

Bradskii:

If they care less because it’s a natural process - you have just said that, then why don’t they care less if the natural process rejects a baby at 5 months?

Take your cue from journalism: what happens across the world is a tragedy at a much different scale from what happens next door. And, at five-months-pregnant, the loss of a baby is much more deeply felt than what happens next door. Not knowing what deaths occur across the world – or prior to knowledge of one’s pregnancy – is very different from what happens once you’ve realized your carrying a child. If you can’t see that distinction, then we’re really at loggerheads here…

Whoa! Back the truck up.

We’re not talking about what happens next door. We’re talking about one hypothetical woman. If she is aware that she might be rejecting a few cells when she has her period, and I’d bet that quite a few do, then her reaction to that event and the same natural event a few months later is monstrously different.

Now it would be perverse to deny that. Your problem is in admitting to the reason for it.

 

[o_mlly]

If the vast majority of Catholics say that fornication, contraception, sex just for the hell of it, ssm and abortions are sins but they continually reject those teachings by their own actions, time and time and time again, then I am forced into one of two conclusions.

One, they are the worst hypochrites imaginable (and I am being kind in just using the term hypochrite) or they do not consider them to be sins.

And again, if they slipped up now and then and just fell off the wagon only on the odd occasion, then I would sympathise with their efforts to remain good Catholics. But this I do not see. The majority of Catholics actively reject some of the most basic teachings of the church on a regular doesn’t-apply-to -me basis.

Find some real Catholics. From your report, apparently, those presenting to you as being Catholic are more likely apostates. Hypocrisy is evil and to be avoided.

Catechism #2468: Truth as uprightness in human action and speech is called truthfulness, sincerity, or candor. Truth or truthfulness is the virtue which consists in showing oneself true in deeds and truthful in words, and in guarding against duplicity, dissimulation, and hypocrisy.

Tip - go to the Catholic church nearest you at the time the priest hears confessions. Those in line to confess are Catholics, even if they are confessing the sin of hypocrisy (with the intent to stop!).

 

[Bradskii]

Except we are talking about morality. Not simply objective truths, which obviously exist.

If there are objective moral truths then you are saying that an act can be ojectively wrong. I am saying that in that case you need to show why something is so.

This surely can’t be hard. X is wrong because…

It is simply not credible that whatever X is, one cannot fill in the rest of the sentence. And as I said, ‘because it is written’ cuts no ice with me.

 

[Bradskii]

That’s too hard to get my head around.

Going to confession if you actively reject the church’s teachings is hypochritical. And you need them to go to confession to confess about…being hypochritical. Which would make them…hypochrites?

 

[o_mlly]

Did you miss the part about the firm resolve to amend one’s life?

 

[Bradskii]

Did you miss the part about the firm resolve to amend one’s life?

It’s not a firm resolve if you keep ignoring the church’s teaching. It’s like an alcoholic going to AA straight from the bar.

 

[o_mlly]

It’s not a firm resolve if you keep ignoring the church’s teaching.

That’s correct.

It’s like an alcoholic going to AA straight from the bar.

If the alcoholic has a firm resolve to amend then he’s good to go (to AA or the confessional).

I can tell you I am an Atheist but if I do believe in God, am I an atheist? Same applies to those who tell you they are Catholic but do not believe in what Catholicism teaches.