What are the reasons I should (or shouldn't) become Catholic?

[Contarini]

1. Sunni & Shia strife is purely political and not doctrinal.

That’s nonsense. The Shi’ites make very specific theological claims for their imams. It’s like saying that arguments about papal authority are not doctrinal. Besides, they have other differences as well–the Shi’ites allow temporary marriage, for instance, and they have a broader doctrine of taq’iyyah (legitimate deception in matters of faith). They practice devotions to their saints that many Sunnis (certainly Wahhabis) consider idolatrous. They have different collections of hadith and traditions of Islamic law.

You can’t separate theology and politics when talking about Islam (I’m not sure you can when talking about Christianity either, but that’s another argument).

1. Islam’s sects are extremely few compared to the many thousands of Christianity.

True

1. Islam’s sects are still united in their core beliefs. That there is only one God and Mohammad is his prophet. To follow the pillars of Islam. That Jesus is just a prophet. And that the Trinity is wrong.

Similarly, Christians are all united in core beliefs about Jesus. There are liberal Christians who spiritualize these beliefs–but there are liberal Muslims who spiritualize Islamic beliefs too (admittedly not as many of them).

Edwin

 

[AgnosTheist]

That’s nonsense. The Shi’ites make very specific theological claims for their imams. It’s like saying that arguments about papal authority are not doctrinal.

A slip of the tongue. Point #3 clarified that. I would rewrite that as “Sunni & Shia strife is mainly political. They still share essential core beliefs”

Besides, they have other differences as well–the Shi’ites allow temporary marriage, for instance, and they have a broader doctrine of taq’iyyah (legitimate deception in matters of faith). They practice devotions to their saints that many Sunnis (certainly Wahhabis) consider idolatrous. They have different collections of hadith and traditions of Islamic law.

all minor.

You can’t separate theology and politics when talking about Islam (I’m not sure you can when talking about Christianity either, but that’s another argument).

still some are largely more political than doctrinal. especially from our point of view. like their feuds about the first 4 caliphs. How much of that is doctrinal? Very very small.

Similarly, Christians are all united in core beliefs about Jesus. There are liberal Christians who spiritualize these beliefs–but there are liberal Muslims who spiritualize Islamic beliefs too (admittedly not as many of them).

You are forgetting the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I never said that Christians are disunited in every major doctrine. There are beliefs that are widely (not always by all) shared, like the Trinity, and the bible being inspired by God. I am just pointing out that unlike Islam there are core doctrines that are held by some christians and at the same time dismissed as bogus by the rest. And with the non-essential doctrines, there are just too many variety.

 

[qui_est_ce]

United in doctrinal beliefs. Disunited in political affiliations. You still disagree?

I would have to say I don’t know, I know there are Sunnis, Shi’ites and some others. I don’t know what the differences among the various sects are, but they are killing each other in the name of Allah. Probably not as many sects as Christians or number of doctines. At this point, I have too many other things to do than explore Islam.

I’m quite turned off by their culture. They treat women shamefully. They believe it is ok to lie. They used to be pioneers in Mathematics and Astronomy before the Prophet appeared. Haven’t read much of the Koran, what I’ve read bores me. It’s one long ramble and rant. Could be a personal thing, I don’t know and really haven’t the desire.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I used Islam and the Koran as an example. That abominable book is light years in clarity compared to the bible. And so muslims are far less fragmented even without an authoritative governing body like the Vatican.

Well, life is complicated. People are complicated. The Bible is the story of a people’s faith history. Therefore Bible is reflective of people. If the Koran is indeed more clear, then it may be an oversimplification, lies, misrepresentation. Whatever.

 

[AgnosTheist]

If the Koran is indeed more clear, then it may be an oversimplification, lies, misrepresentation. Whatever.

The Koran is a bunch of lies, but i dont think that is the reason for its clarity. Its clear because it is direct to the point.

When I was a christian, whenever I engaged the likes of the Jehovah’s witnesses I often wished that "If only jesus told the apostles ‘I am the Lord your God’ just before he went back into heaven.

 

[qui_est_ce]

The Koran is a bunch of lies, but i dont think that is the reason for its clarity. Its clear because it is direct to the point.

I should think the complexity of the Bible would intrigue you, especially in the light of new archeological finds.

 

[Contarini]

all minor.

Do they think so? Maybe we should ask them.

still some are largely more political than doctrinal. especially from our point of view. like their feuds about the first 4 caliphs. How much of that is doctrinal? Very very small.

It’s very doctrinal, just as Christian debates about the Pope are. It’s about the nature of authority within the Ummah–does it rest in consensus (which often seems to mean in practice that the guy with the biggest armies has Allah on his side), or is there a divinely authorized line of succession? It has huge repercussions.

You are forgetting the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Actually I wasn’t. JWs do believe in the basic beliefs about Jesus as found, say, in the Apostles’ Creed or in the doctrinal summaries of the second century. However, your point is certainly valid that most Christians believe the Trinity (and often other points as well) to be core doctrines–I do myself.

Edwin

 

[AgnosTheist]

^ Contarini, if the bible is a bit more direct to the point, would that be harmful to the churches of Christ?

It’s very doctrinal, just as Christian debates about the Pope are.

if it was it would have some basis in the Quran. I dont think the issue of line of succession was even mentioned in the hadiths.

 

[Contarini]

^ Contarini, if the bible is a bit more direct to the point, would that be harmful to the churches of Christ?

We might be more like Islam. Would you really want that?

I love the Bible just as it is, in all its confusing richness. I can’t help but think that the life of the Church would be impoverished if the Bible were one bit simpler. But what do I know?

if it was it would have some basis in the Quran. I dont think the issue of line of succession was even mentioned in the hadiths.

I think you’re arguing in circles here. First you say that the Qur’an lays things out clearly enough to avoid division, then when I point to a division you say it doesn’t matter because it’s based on something not mentioned in the Qur’an. The fact that the Qur’an does not address something as basic as authority structures within the Ummah is a serious strike against your claims for it.

As for the hadith, I’m pretty sure you are wrong that succession is not mentioned there, but I could be mistaken. I would certainly expect it to be in the Shi’ite hadith (and didn’t you just say that the fact that they have different hadith is minor?).

Edwin

 

[po18guy]

I would have to say I don’t know, I know there are Sunnis, Shi’ites and some others. I don’t know what the differences among the various sects are, but they are killing each other in the name of Allah. Probably not as many sects as Christians or number of doctines. At this point, I have too many other things to do than explore Islam.

I’m quite turned off by their culture. They treat women shamefully. They believe it is ok to lie. They used to be pioneers in Mathematics and Astronomy before the Prophet appeared. Haven’t read much of the Koran, what I’ve read bores me. It’s one long ramble and rant. Could be a personal thing, I don’t know and really haven’t the desire.

Have a look: religionfacts.com/islam/sects.htm

So, Agnos is saying that:

Muslims are unified, but still kill each other.

Christians are divided, but only argue and do not kill each other.

Well, Agnos, will you join the church if we start killing each other?

 

[AgnosTheist]

We might be more like Islam. Would you really want that?

I really cant see how that would happen if jesus simply said out loud that he is god, and that the church should be governed by apostolic successors.

I love the Bible just as it is, in all its confusing richness. I can’t help but think that the life of the Church would be impoverished if the Bible were one bit simpler. But what do I know?

Since we are stuck with the bible I just try to see the positive outcome from all these thousands of sects…VARIETY! Life is about variety. Its about change. Isnt it that christian variety led to the development of religious freedom, …of multiculturalism? (hey I think multiculturalism is only good in the americas) If Jesus was really God then maybe this is exactly what he wants thats why he was beating around the bush back in the gospel days. He wanted variety.

I think you’re arguing in circles here. First you say that the Qur’an lays things out clearly enough to avoid division, then when I point to a division you say it doesn’t matter because it’s based on something not mentioned in the Qur’an. The fact that the Qur’an does not address something as basic as authority structures within the Ummah is a serious strike against your claims for it.

I only said that the Quran is simple enough that nearly every muslim sect agree on the fundamentals of faith. I dont think the Caliphate is a fundamental of Islamic faith…look muslims can even get on with their lives without one!

 

[AgnosTheist]

Muslims are unified, but still kill each other.

Christians are divided, but only argue and do not kill each other.

Well, Agnos, will you join the church if we start killing each other?

Maybe I should have rather used the jews as an example. There are no governing religious jewish authorities and yet there not that many sects out there. There are no radically conflicting religious ideas between the few jewish sects. (hey I think those ‘Messianic Jews’ are really Christians )

 

[po18guy]

Maybe I should have rather used the jews as an example. There are no governing religious jewish authorities and yet there not that many sects out there. There are no radically conflicting religious ideas between the few jewish sects. (hey I think those ‘Messianic Jews’ are really Christians )

I don’t buy a car when I see the bait and switch, either.

You know, I have admitted that I am wrong at times. Didn’t hurt at all.

Christ’s peace. Live it.

 

[Olivermax]

The worst thing about hanging around Catholics is their focus on the 4 Gospels and their lack of focus and attention to Paul’s epistles.

This is the worst thing because God gave the apostle Paul the “house rules of the grace of God” for us to follow (Eph 3:2) and you won’t find those “house rules” in the 4 Gospels since those writings deal with everything that happened BEFORE Christ gave Paul our “house rules” to follow and live by.

Olivermax
Actually, Catholics read and apply ALL of the Bible, including Paul’s letters. By contrast, Protestants largely ignore the Gospels and everything Jesus says there, because it doesn’t quite fit with their theology. Too many “messy” parts that sound too “Catholic”. Yes, I see your problem.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Actually, Catholics read and apply ALL of the Bible, including Paul’s letters. By contrast, Protestants largely ignore the Gospels and everything Jesus says there, because it doesn’t quite fit with their theology.

Catholics arent more ethical than Protestants. So for me both are just as serious in observing the ethical messages of jesus in the gospels.

 

[po18guy]

Catholics arent more ethical than Protestants. So for me both are just as serious in observing the ethical messages of jesus in the gospels.

Yeah, I guess we’re all JUST as good as each other. We’re both 100% right. You’re OK, I’m OK! It’s all so clear now.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Yeah, I guess we’re all JUST as good as each other. We’re both 100% right. You’re OK, I’m OK! It’s all so clear now.

a religion is just as good as the kind of people it breeds. catholics & protestants are equally good people. you shouldnt be feuding.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Maybe I should have rather used the jews as an example. There are no governing religious jewish authorities and yet there not that many sects out there. There are no radically conflicting religious ideas between the few jewish sects. (hey I think those ‘Messianic Jews’ are really Christians )

Your original argument was that it was not authority, but clarity of the owner’s manual that made Muslims unified. Now you are using lack of authority in Jewish religiong to prove unity. But they used the same OT as Protestants, (all 33,000+ demoninations) a book which you claim is full of contradictions.

PS, anymore personal revelations?

 

[AgnosTheist]

Your original argument was that it was not authority, but clarity of the owner’s manual that made Muslims unified. Now you are using lack of authority in Jewish religiong to prove unity. But they used the same OT as Protestants, (all 33,000+ demoninations) a book which you claim is full of contradictions.

The Torah by itself is very clear. Though not as clear as the Koran.

Its the New Testament that is full of obscurities. And made worst when combined with the OT. Those 2 are polar opposites.

 

[qui_est_ce]

The Torah by itself is very clear. Though not as clear as the Koran.

Its the New Testament that is full of obscurities. And made worst when combined with the OT. Those 2 are polar opposites.

What is polar opposite, OT vs NT?

Actually, I find the OT full of obscurities. There are two versions of Creation. Why did Cain kill Able? Did Abraham really grow to be 1,000 years old? How could Sara get pregnant if she was past menopause? Jonah in the whale? God using Jonah to have a philospical argument with the Devil? Much much more. But then people are complicated. We say we love God with all our hearts and souls, and then we offend Him by doing stupid stuff.

I would think you would find this very interesting. I’m surprised you don’t study more theology or Bibliology. It appears to interest you as evidenced by your many posts here.

I don’t believe you are here to lure us away from the CC.

In fact, I am convinced you are very close to coming home to Rome.