What are your ideas for the LGBT person's vocation in the Church?

[catholic1seeks]

What will you do when the day comes that multiple openly gay couples come into your Catholic church and stay for the whole mass and go to communion. Sunday after Sunday. Week after week? What will you do, exactly? And then you go to a different parish and the same thing happens there, too? And the next, and the next?

Honestly, that time is probably coming. Just as many Catholics approaching communion are also contracepting or not adhering to Catholic sexual morality.

Of course, I’m not suggesting the Church change it’s sexual moral teaching. But the pastoral issue is here – as the purpose of my thread indicates – and it will only increase.

That’s why if people like @Gab123 feel so threatened by “gay gradualism in the church,” then we precisely NEED this kind of thread. No to gay marriage? Fine. Let’s talk about other ways gay people can live in the church…

 

[catholic1seeks]

But that’s not what this thread is about. See maybe the past 10 or so posts of mine.

 

[Sarcelle]

Refuse to buy into the notion that worth is tied up in accomplishments and status. Believe in the notion that our value and worth as humans comes from God and cannot be degraded because of our status in society.

Sure it means swimming against the tide but it’s worth it.

 

[QwertyGirl]

Honestly, that time is probably coming. Just as many Catholics approaching communion are also contracepting or not adhering to Catholic sexual morality.

I agree. But you see the responses from some of the people here to my previous posts. They are in denial. And they don’t want to hear it from anyone.

 

[catholic1seeks]

The interesting part is this: That the Church will have to figure out how to welcome these gay couples while also determining how to promote alternative vocations to marriage for other gay people.

 

[theCardinalbird]

While I find it sad that some people don’t think to much about communion, I also consider it a responsibility if one is Catholic to examine oneself before receiving the blessed Eucharist. Those who should not be receiving because of (insert reason here) must be aware of what they are doing exactly. If it comes to a point where a couple who is not in good standing with the Church yet frequents the Eucharistic Sacrament, knowing full well what the Church teaches, and decides to “drink the cup unworthily” then those people must answer to God no?

1 Corinthians 11:27-29 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

If one wishes to be a Catholic and truly a Catholic who does not want to offend Jesus Christ our Lord and saviour, then one must examine oneself to avoid sacrilege

 

[Gab123]

That the Church will have to figure out how to welcome these gay couples

So, at what point do you tell the couple that they have to live as siblings, and go to confession prepared with an act of contrition?

also determining how to promote alternative vocations to marriage for other gay people.

As if it’s up to the Church to determine this. God have you a brain for that. Again, you have to get over the idea that God made people “gay” or that God made people Transexuals. The problem is the influence the Culture of Death.

 

[OsculeturMeOsculo]

Some people have suggested things but nobody seems to care about what they say.

 

[Gab123]

If one wishes to be a Catholic and truly a Catholic who does not want to offend Jesus Christ our Lord and saviour, then one must examine oneself to avoid sacrilege

The problem is that we can create a false idea about God in our life. As Scripture says:
“If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.”

So the big lie is when a man thinks he has a relationship with God just because he believes in God and go to church and talks to Jesus; yet has no intention of repenting or changing. Thus he is only fooling himself. What’s worse is that there are priests who have fooled themselves and go on to rationalize sin telling people that are obstinate in sin that “God understands” that “God is merciful” or that “The Church needs to change”. Such thinking is repugnant to God. When such people think the Church is wrong on the issues and that they have to witness their lifestyles to soften or change Church teaching, is a sign that they are blinded and working for the devil.

 

[theCardinalbird]

The problem is that we can create a false idea about God in our life

Well then perhaps that needs to change. Would you agree a good Catechesis on the Catholic faith should remove these false ideas of God?

“The Church needs to change”

I would also like to add that the Church can’t change divine laws (but you know this).

 

[Thorolfr]

Of course, everyone who belongs to a church or a religion, thinks that their church or their religion is the “true” one. And some religions have lasted even longer than the Catholic Church and have completely disappeared. Anyone living in Egypt at the beginning of the 1st century AD would have seen a religion there that stretched back 3000 years. It must have seemed eternal but would be completely gone as a living religion in a few hundred years.

 

[Gab123]

Of course, everyone who belongs to a church or a religion, thinks that their church or their religion is the “true” one

Yes, that’s the point of faith in Jesus Christ. Of all the claimants to the truth, only Jesus Christ was pre-announced, fulfilled hundreds of prophecies and proved His claim through miracles witnessed by thousands, while His resurrection from the dead showed his very authority over life and death itself. And the fact that thousands of miracles over the past 2000 years and countless NDEs testifying to the reality of Jesus, heaven, and hell simply prove that the battle for the salvation of souls continues to this very day. Thus when Jesus founded a Church and promised to guide it in truth throughout the ages, we believe it. So yes, heaven and hell are real; demons, wicked beings, spirits of the dark, damned souls, diabolical possession, is as real as the nose on your face; so is true forgiveness of sin through Jesus Christ. The problem is that unrepented sin has terrible spiritual consequences.

Thus when the Church teaches that homosexual activity is an abomination in the eyes of God, it teaches it for your own good, for the salvation of your soul. As Jesus said, “so that your joy may be complete”-John 15:11.

The body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit, and Christ paid a terrible price for our salvation, so you don’t want to desecrate your body with sin and abominations.

As for other religions, do realize that every civilization since the dawn of Man has reasoned a Creator, this is because reason itself demands it. Thus every culture in history from the Egyptians to the the Greeks, the Aztecs, the Phoenicians, to tribes of people living on the most remote islands and jungles on this earth have all formulated their own ideas about who and what God is.

While certain truths about God can be grasped through reason alone, through the study of nature and intellectual deduction, Man is finite, thus He has used his imagination to fill in the gaps about God that are impossible to grasp through reason alone. Thus many religions are filled with all sorts of legends and cultural expressions.

Thus, since man is finite, whereas God is infinite, in order for man to know his Creator, God had to reveal Himself to Man. This is what is known as Divine Revelation, a revelation that culminated in Jesus Christ, and a salvation history that continues to unfold in God’s Divine Plan, chichi inv=cludes giving you an opportunity to save your soul, or to lose it.

 

[DarkLight]

As if it’s up to the Church to determine this. God have you a brain for that. Again, you have to get over the idea that God made people “gay” or that God made people Transexuals. The problem is the influence the Culture of Death.

The problem is plenty of us weren’t exposed to that culture. I was attracted to women before I think I could even have told you what the term “lesbian” means. The sum total of my exposure to homosexuality was sermons on how it was proof of rebellion against God.

Unless you’re making an argument that simply living in a world that has sin in it causes homosexuality, that doesn’t really explain a lot of cases.

 

[Gab123]

The problem is plenty of us weren’t exposed to that culture. I was attracted to women before I think I could even have told you what the term “lesbian” means. The sum total of my exposure to homosexuality was sermons on how it was proof of rebellion against God.

Unless you’re making an argument that simply living in a world that has sin in it causes homosexuality, that doesn’t really explain a lot of cases.

Attractions to the same sex when one is a child is not bnormal; most boys think girls are “yucky” until puberty. There ae]really many outside influences that can affect a person, especially during puberty, from emotional issues, to loss of a parent to the interference of other people in our life. Obviously the world has a huge influence on people; from promiscuity to consumerism and materialism. But again, everybody has disordered I nclinations, it doesn’t mean we must act on them. Obviously it doesn’t help when the world celebrates, promotes, and encourages people to act on their inclinations; chanting a false promise of happiness and marching countless people down a road that does not lead to God…

And it’s easy to go with the flow of the world; while following Christ entails struggle; much like anything good entails a struggle.
“A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
_― G.K. Chesterton

The good news is that Jesus Christ loves us so much that He died to save us from our sins, and gives us the sanctifying grace to seek His ways…

 

[DarkLight]

My point is, a lot of us weren’t in a culture where that sort of thing was celebrated or even accepted. If anything, I was in a culture where homosexuality was only spoken of as an evil perversion and someone who had homosexual inclinations would be seen as a dangerous pervert (even if they had never acted on them).

It sounds to me more like you’re going on a psychological fishing expedition because you don’t want to believe that people can just have homosexual inclinations without it being because of some sort of special modern influence. And we’re telling you that’s wrong - people can be living chaste lives sheltered from all that outside influence and that doesn’t mean that homosexual inclinations don’t develop.

I was about 15 at the time, by the way. And that tells you how sheltered I was - we weren’t allowed unsupervised internet access, or tv and movies that weren’t approved, or reading material that hadn’t already been read by a parent. And I didn’t go to public school or really interact with adults that weren’t conservative christians.

 

[catholic1seeks]

The Church changes all the time.

The question is: What is the nature of the change?

 

[catholic1seeks]

Thus when the Church teaches that homosexual activity is an abomination in the eyes of God, it teaches it for your own good, for the salvation of your soul.

For example, one thing that changes is the language of faith. The substance remains the same, but calling homosexuality an “abomination” doesn’t help anyone – except maybe a few self-righteous posters on CAF. You and the Bible thumper God-Hates-Fags camp, and the occasional loud-mouth campus street preacher, are the only ones I ever hear use “abomination” with homosexuality (or any other sin).

You have to realize that language has connotation as well as denotation. You can still get the substance of Catholic teaching across without using “abomination.”

 

[catholic1seeks]

There ae]really many outside influences that can affect a person, especially during puberty, from emotional issues, to loss of a parent to the interference of other people in our life. Obviously the world has a huge influence on people; from promiscuity to consumerism and materialism. But again, everybody has disordered I nclinations, it doesn’t mean we must act on them.

One has to wonder, if homosexuality is such an “abomination” against God, why does God allow any factor (biological or not) to so easily cause people to develop these attractions? The issue isn’t if it’s genetic or biological or not.

 

[theCardinalbird]

One has to wonder, if homosexuality is such an “abomination” against God, why does God allow any factor (biological or not) to so easily cause people to develop these attractions?

We are living in a fallen, sinful, and damaged universe; and this was caused by the sin of our first parents (Adam and Eve). Because of this, Satan has a certain amount of control over this universe, which is why there is sin, sickness, suffering, broken attractions, and death. The good news is that God is still in ultimate control, even though He has to permit a certain amount of evil and suffering to take place.

And so, as St. Augustine puts it: “God does not cause bad things to happen. Rather, He causes bad things not to be the worst things possible.” For example, because of the dominion of Satan over this world, sometimes babies are born deformed with two heads. However, if Satan had his way (if God didn’t stop him or hold him in check), then ALL babies would be born deformed with two heads, or much worse.

If Satan had full control, it would literally be hell on earth. But it’s not. God’s goodness is still part of this universe. However, there is also the pollution of satanic evil (sin, sickness, suffering, and death) because our first parents chose to let this in; and God cannot simply make it go away without violating His gift of free will to human beings, which is part of His love for us.

So perhaps it has to do with our broken universe

 

[catholic1seeks]

I believe in Original Sin and that creation is not now what it is ultimately meant to be.

But I think the fault lies in diminishing the struggle, “the cross,” of being gay / having same-sex attraction simply by trying to name ANY other factor other than genetics as the cause of homosexual attraction (as some like Gab are doing), even if that cause is Original Sin or an imperfect world.

Whatever the cause of homosexual attraction, it’s a real thing. It’s deep, not just a fleeting “temptation.” And so if we maintain it is an “abomination,” like Gab loves to say, then we’re going to have to find a way to square a loving God with that.

Or else, even with Original Sin, it ultimately seems like God is the one who has pre-ordained people (like gays) to hell… SO we have to be careful how we talk about it.