What are your ideas for the LGBT person's vocation in the Church?

[Bruised_Reed]

I think that was well established before this thread was imagined and hes been discussed upthread.

And IIRC anytime a poster asked CAF in the past if it was okay for someone who was gay to marry someone who wss straight some would say yes, some would say no, and inbetween would be a whole lot of wariness and warnings and wondering about validity, etc.

I tend to think suggestions like these are not well thought out, for either party.

 

[Gab123]

So, does the Catholic Church also see the horror of AIDS that has ravaged South Africa and attribute it to “the lifestyle”, in this case, the “heterosexual lifestyle”?

Yes, sexually transmitted diseases are rampant among promiscuous lifestyles. It hit the homosexual community very hard being that promiscuity is rampant among homosexual men but also because it involves the unnatural use of the sexual organs that lead to the tearing of the rear canal and the exchange of contaminated blood.

Just being a pig is “abominable” and I’m sure that eating a pork chop would be an “abomination.” So, each morning we can wake up and decide not to commit an abomination like eating pork. And all my devout Orthodox Jewish and Muslim friends would probably agree that eating pork is an abomination. Or at least most Muslims I know find the thought repulsive.

Realize that the Hebrew Scriptures uses different words that in English translate to “abomination”, for example, the word _Sheqqets is used when speaking about the dietary laws, whereas the word Toeba is used when referring to sexual immorality and homosexual acts. So you have to be careful, as you will only end up misreading the Word of God and confusing yourself and others.

We often see this issue with words translated into English from other languages that have multiple words that refine different contexts. For example, Ancient Greek has at least four distinct words for “love”: agápe, éros, philía, and storgē. However, as with other languages, it has been difficult to separate the meanings of these words when used outside their respective contexts. In English there is only one word for “love”, thus in English you can say that you “love your mother”, or that you “love pizza”, when in reality the love for your mother is something quite different than your love for pizza. Thus you have to further refine what the original application of the translated text intended.

The Church teaches that homosexual acts are a depravity; “intrinsically evil"; things that by their very nature are harmful, abnormal, degrading, debasing, dehumanizing; lethal to culture, society, and the human person; harmful namely to one’s own soul. Thus the Church is a hospital for sinners, a means for sanctification and holiness; a preparation for death and the afterlife; thus you don’t want to be tearing down the hospital or getting rid of the medicine.

In theology something is called “evil’ when something is being used against its purpose. Man is made for Truth, Goodness and Love, and Sexuality is intimately linked to the creation of a new soul, thus it is a sacred gift, and any misuse outside marriage between the complementary sexes is very sinful. Sperm was not intended for anything other than its purpose…

 

[Thorolfr]

Thorolfr:

So, does the Catholic Church also see the horror of AIDS that has ravaged South Africa and attribute it to “the lifestyle”, in this case, the “heterosexual lifestyle”?

Yes, sexually transmitted diseases are rampant among promiscuous lifestyles. It hit the homosexual community very hard being that promiscuity is rampant among homosexual men but also because it involves the unnatural use of the sexual organs that lead to the tearing of the rear canal and the exchange of contaminated blood.

The point I was making, however, is that the overwhelming majority of people in the world who are infected with HIV are heterosexuals. Of the 36.7 million people living with HIV in 2016, 25.5 million are in Sub-Saharan Africa (69.4%), over half of them women. But no one ever attributes the spread of HIV to the “heterosexual lifestyle”. What heterosexuals do sexually is never called “the lifestyle”. But the expression “the gay lifestyle” is often used in talking about gay men, mostly to express contempt or disapproval.

Thorolfr:

Just being a pig is “abominable” and I’m sure that eating a pork chop would be an “abomination.” So, each morning we can wake up and decide not to commit an abomination like eating pork. And all my devout Orthodox Jewish and Muslim friends would probably agree that eating pork is an abomination. Or at least most Muslims I know find the thought repulsive.

Realize that the Hebrew Scriptures uses different words that in English translate to “abomination”, for example, the word _Sheqqets is used when speaking about the dietary laws, whereas the word Toeba is used when referring to sexual immorality and homosexual acts. So you have to be careful, as you will only end up misreading the Word of God and confusing yourself and others.

You have apparently assumed that I don’t know anything about Hebrew or about translating and didn’t bother to look at the Hebrew version of Deuteronomy 14:3 before I quoted it. But I’ve studied Hebrew (and studied Comparative Semitics in college) and the Hebrew word “toeba” is also sometimes used in talking about dietary laws in the Hebrew bible as is the case in Deuteronomy 14:3:

Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing.
lo tokal kal-toeba

In this case, “toeba” mean “abominable thing” and is obviously being used to refer to dietary laws. It is the same word that is used in your favorite verse in Leviticus (18:22) which says that lying with a man as with a women is an abomination or “abominable thing” (toeba).

 

[Thorolfr]

I saw this news elsewhere here in CAF and thought it was relevant to this thread since it shows some openness in the leadership of the Catholic Church to start talking to LGBT people by using terms that we use to talk about ourselves instead of just talking about us using terminology that we rarely use ourselves:

Vatican recognises ‘LGBT’ for the first time

The Vatican has recognised “LGBT” for the first time, as bishops admitted that the Catholic church must be more inclusive.

In a working document published on Tuesday senior Church figures said “LGBT youth” wanted to “benefit from greater closeness” with the Church.

The shift marks a departure from previous language used by the Vatican, which has in the past included “persons with homosexual tendencies”, while more recent documents have used the term “homosexuals”.

At a press conference Cardinal Lorenzo Baldisseri, the secretary general of the Vatican’s synod office, told reporters that the term was included because it had been used by young people and the church was following suit.

“We are open. We don’t want to be closed in on ourselves,” he said.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/19/vatican-recognises-lgbt-first-time/

 

[OsculeturMeOsculo]

Ironically this thread did the opposite of its intended purpose.

 

[Thorolfr]

It’s difficult to have a discussion about the LGBT person’s vocation in the Church when many people object to even using the term LGBT (which the leadership of the Church is apparently now starting to do) and believe that people who want to discuss a vocation for LGBT people are a kind of fifth column that is intent on destroying the Church.

 

[OsculeturMeOsculo]

Well LGBT has a sort of worldly connotation behind it. It is more of a label.

 

[Thorolfr]

Well LGBT has a sort of worldly connotation behind it. It is more of a label.

But talking to people in a way they want to be talked to does show some respect. If the church wants to reach out to gay men but calls them “people with SSA” or “homosexual persons,” the outreach isn’t going to work as well.

 

[theCardinalbird]

but calls them “people with SSA,” the outreach isn’t going to work as well.

And why is that?

 

[DarkLight]

Thorolfr:

but calls them “people with SSA,” the outreach isn’t going to work as well.

And why is that?

Basically, because to people outside the Church it sounds like you can’t be bothered to listen to them or to accept them even long enough to call them what they want to be called. And that’s not a useful place to start a dialogue.

 

[theCardinalbird]

Basically, because to people outside the Church it sounds like you can’t be bothered to listen to them or to accept them even long enough to call them what they want to be called. And that’s not a useful place to start a dialogue.

Well if that’s the case then ok. I personally don’t care if I’m called SSA, all I want is some way in dealing with this struggle while being Catholic

 

[DarkLight]

Well if that’s the case then ok. I personally don’t care if I’m called SSA, all I want is some way in dealing with this struggle while being Catholic

That’s fine, I think. But I think there’s going to be some different challenges with those who were raised catholic, than in reaching those outside - or sometimes even in cases of converts like me.

 

[theCardinalbird]

That’s fine, I think. But I think there’s going to be some different challenges with those who were raised catholic, than in reaching those outside - or sometimes even in cases of converts like me.

True

(10 characters)

 

[Redrose13]

In my opinion, You can’t serve two masters at the same time. It’s either You obey God’s word or you reject it. As far as LGBT’s vocation to the Catholic Church is concerned, I would think that a homosexual must repent first and turn away from the sinful living he used to be if one is called to follow Christ in this vocation. I’m not being judgemental here but homosexuality is a sin and how can you fully serve God in this vocation if you know in yourself that you couldn’t embrace the truth for the love of God?

Again this is just my opinion. No intended judgement for the LGBT people. Peace be with you all!

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I would think that a homosexual must repent first and turn away from the sinful living he used to be if one is called to follow Christ in this vocation…

One can be a gay person without having committed a single sexual sin. Just an FYI.

 

[Gab123]

What heterosexuals do sexually is never called “the lifestyle”. But the expression “the gay lifestyle” is often used in talking about gay men, mostly to express contempt or disapproval.

Words and expressions come and go; the word “gay” used to mean happy, whereas today it means something completely different; certainly not happy, as those in engaged in that lifestyle are far from happy. The usual term for heterosexual sin is “living in sin”, “fornication”, “adultery”; but “promiscuity” covers all the bases. I suppose it is called a life-style being that the normal natural sexual relationship is between a man and a woman…

It’s difficult to have a discussion about the LGBT person’s vocation in the Church when many people object to even using the term LGBT (which the leadership of the Church is apparently now starting to do) and believe that people who want to discuss a vocation for LGBT people are a kind of fifth column that is intent on destroying the Church.

It is a fifth column; and most Catholics don’t realize how organized and systematic the goal of normalizing the LGBT agenda inside the Church. And there are plenty of closeted liars within both the clerrgy and the laity who speak behind a mask not revealing their true intentions. One only needs to read their literature; one group is known as “The Reformation Project”- which describes itself as “a Bible-based, Christian grassroots organization that works to promote inclusion of LGBTQ people by reforming church teaching on sexual orientation and gender”

They know they have to start with getting a foot in the door and to proceed with tiny baby steps, but they have a very well-organized well-financed structural approach that includes courses, study guides and specific tactics for gaining people’s acceptance of the idea that God made people specifically transexual, or gay, or pansexual etc. for a purpose, as just another expression of God’s creation. Their courses teach methods to dismantling Biblical interpretations and theological arguments and tying emotional appeals for justice to rationalize gay sex as not only wholesome and virtuous, but ordained by God Himself. It’s a wicked way of slandering God. They go to Church, become active in the parish, visit Christian/Catholic blogs/forums to have discussions, not revealing their true intentions, but having the goal of getting the foot in the door. After their victory in the Anglican Church, they now target Evangelical Christianity and the Catholic Church.

We read in the Bible how 2,000 years ago the spirit of evil was using people back then to make the same arguments against the Church; thus Paul wrote very clearly:

Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[DarkLight]

In my opinion, You can’t serve two masters at the same time. It’s either You obey God’s word or you reject it. As far as LGBT’s vocation to the Catholic Church is concerned, I would think that a homosexual must repent first and turn away from the sinful living he used to be if one is called to follow Christ in this vocation. I’m not being judgemental here but homosexuality is a sin and how can you fully serve God in this vocation if you know in yourself that you couldn’t embrace the truth for the love of God?

Again this is just my opinion. No intended judgement for the LGBT people. Peace be with you all!

This is a difficulty that comes up in a lot of these threads. But here, LGBT is being used for those who experience same-sex attraction, whether or not they act on it. So the complaint a lot of us have is the idea for our lives is “don’t have sex”…and that’s about it.

 

[Thorolfr]

Words and expressions come and go; the word “gay” used to mean happy, whereas today it means something completely different; certainly not happy, as those in engaged in that lifestyle are far from happy.

How do you know whether some gay person, even one who is sexually active, is happy or not? In my experience, most gay people are happy sometimes and sometimes they’re not happy, just like most people. There is really quite a lot of variety even among gay people since everyone is unique.

 

[Redrose13]

If a gay person is single and has no partner at all I think that would be fine.

Let’s say a gay person didn’t had a partner at all from the time he acknowledged that he’s a gay and didn’t had sexual acts with other men is not considered a sin. But what happened to God’s creation where a gay person was naturally designed by the most high to be a man? Isn’t it a violation against God? Just clarifying things out.

 

[theCardinalbird]

But what happened to God’s creation where a gay person was naturally designed by the most high to be a man? Isn’t it a violation against God? Just clarifying things out.

I’m confused as to what you are asking. What’s the violation?