What are your ideas for the LGBT person's vocation in the Church?

[Thorolfr]

The attraction, if acted on, is obviously against Church doctrine. But I feel you are answering without first reading. I quite specifically stated that it was fine for clergy to have homosexual feelings so long as they are not acted on.

I’m reading what you wrote which is not at all clear. You originally said, “If their lifestyles (or even their personal attributes) are against the will of God…”. So that seems to me to be saying that some personal attributes are against the will of God. You then said, “or not act on the personal attributes which go against church doctrines,” which seems to be saying that there are personal attributes which go against church doctrine. If it’s just the acting that you’re concerned about, you should have worded it a little bit differently.

 

[BlueMaxx]

I am merely citing just one example of what scripture has to say on the subject…sin is sin…but continual sin hardens the heart and separates us from communion with God, Christ, the Holy Spirit and the Church…

Personally I think the whole idea of the thread is silly…we are members of the church, not a bunch of separate minor cliques of whatever one identifies themselves with. Furthermore, I think it is sad that people have to identify themselves at all by a sexual group…

We as humans feel our sexual proclivities and desires somehow identify us and make us who we are…I could not disagree more…

We are so much more than base desires and instinct…we feel as if we have a right to our sexuality, that we own it above all else and in doing so fail to learn submission, to learn self sacrifice…we feel our rights with our sexuality trumps God’s laws and wishes…

The scripture is full of examples of how we are to flee temptations and those things that may lead us to sin, even if it means sacrificing family or something & someone you love even to the point of a body part!

Why would God go to so much trouble to spell it out if it was not important?

Just my .02

 

[JanetF]

The exact same as any single lay person, they should discern what talents and treasures they have and then share them with the parish they belong to. So if they are a great orator, become a lector, or children’s catechist. If they have a great singing voice, join the choir. If they have great organizations skills, volunteer int he parish office during special projects.

I don’t see why this has to be a question based on a person’s sexual preferences.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Personally I think the whole idea of the thread is silly…

Then don’t participate! Believe me, posts like this DO NOT help anyone!

 

[theCardinalbird]

Furthermore, I think it is sad that people have to identify themselves at all by a sexual group…

Agreed

We as humans feel our sexual proclivities and desires somehow identify us and make us who we are…I could not disagree more…

Well it is degrading to define ourselves by who or what we are sexually attracted too

We are so much more than base desires and instinct…we feel as if we have a right to our sexuality, that we own it above all else and in doing so fail to learn submission, to learn self sacrifice…we feel our rights with our sexuality trumps God’s laws and wishes…

You don’t need to tell me this, believe me.

The scripture is full of examples of how we are to flee temptations and those things that may lead us to sin, even if it means sacrificing family or something & someone you love even to the point of a body part!

That is true
My only question was whether you think same sex attraction is a sin? But it is clear you don’t

 

[catholic1seeks]

I don’t see why this has to be a question based on a person’s sexual preferences.

I know there is a lot in this thread, but this dodges the main issue.

I’m not talking about career, I’m talking about vocation in the sense of alternatives to what the Church rejects for LGBT people – marriage, sex, etc. What are some alternatives to marriage that allow for LGBT people to foster lives of love, relationship, and companionship, since they cannot marry?

 

[DarkLight]

Honestly, I’ve seen the exact same questions from dedicated lay singles who are heterosexual. I think that’s a lot of the problem - our modern parishes can be very focused on family as the primary outlet.

I would also say, at many of the parishes I’ve found, the opportunities are designed primarily around the assumption that you have stay at home mothers or retired people who can fill needs. As your average single, working young adult, it can often be a challenge to see what I can even do.

And the matter of companionship is very big. It often feels to me that I’m not supposed to be too close to men, and if I do I’m a potential temptation. But for women, pretty much everything revolves around supporting wives and mothers, and their social outlet tends to be around school and catechesis and other events for children.

 

[benjamin1973]

Either homosexuality is a choice, or it’s a personal attribute. If it’s a choice, then bringing someone into the Church may allow them to self-reflect and perhaps make different choices. If it’s a personal attribute, then they should be welcome anyway, as God has made them that way, but taught that in order to be in accord with Church doctrine, they should not act according to a homosexual attribute. Whether they are able to overcome their impulses or not is between them and God, not them and other churchgoers, IMO.

 

[DarkLight]

I agree with you. I have really been surprised reading through the contributions to see how many people seem to want to take their anger out on those with SSA who are/become faithful Catholics. Effectively what they are doing is keeping people trapped behind a label, which ironically, as I understand the Church’s teaching, is exactly what she criticises the gay-rights movement for doing.

I think this is an issue as well. Sometimes it seems that there’s an undercurrent that those with SSA could become heterosexual if they really wanted to, or that SSA is some punishment for prior immorality. Or at least that anyone with SSA probably secretly supports the “homosexual agenda.”

I think there can be a bit of a stigma against being single in general, too. I know as a 30 year old single woman, I’ve definitely dealt with people where it was just assumed that I was selfish, or influenced by “liberal feminism”, or really being sexually immoral - not because of anything I did, but simply because I was single at an age when most people are married or at least very seriously looking.

 

[Thorolfr]

It’s sad that people feel the need to identify themselves based on nationality or political party. Maybe if people identified themselves only as human beings, everyone would be more sympathetic to other human beings who are refugees and would be more concerned about recent government policies in the US separating them from their children. But the identity of “American” as opposed to “Guatemalan” or “El Salvadoran” is more important to them than merely being human or someone God loves. Somehow I think Jesus would be more concerned with how refugees are treated than by what a gay person does in bed.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I know there is a lot in this thread, but this dodges the main issue.

I’m not talking about career, I’m talking about vocation in the sense of alternatives to what the Church rejects for LGBT people – marriage, sex, etc. What are some alternatives to marriage that allow for LGBT people to foster lives of love, relationship, and companionship, since they cannot marry?

But I sympathize with those who complain that this is a problem ALL (seemingly permanently) single Catholics face, so the notion that the solution is about gay Catholics can be unhelpful.

Some people can’t have dairy because they’re lactose intolerant, and other people just feel crappy when they eat dairy. It doesn’t matter what the REASON for the problem is; at restaurants, they order the same things. And restaurants ought to have some foods that cater to all people who don’t have dairy, regardless of the reason.

Similarly, the Church needs to provide vision to ALL single Catholics.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Furthermore, I think it is sad that people have to identify themselves at all by a sexual group…

How else are they going to find their tribe? Heteros don’t have to ID ourselves because it’s assumed and we flaunt our heterosexuality anytime we hold hands with our partner, have a picture of them on one’s desk, or talk about the couple-y things we do like buying houses, getting together with the in-laws, family vacations, etc. I know how many times as a single person that people have plotted to set me up with someone (and note that my heterosexuality is assumed) and it’s super uncomfortable when the person they are thinking of is totally inappropriate. Imagine the do-gooders trying to set up an LGBT person.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Imagine the do-gooders trying to set up an LGBT person.

“Hey, how did that date with Jill go?”

“Alright, I suppose, but she just didn’t have that – y’know…”

“She didn’t have that je ne sais quoi? She didn’t have IT?”

“Ummm, no, that’s not it at all. She was, y’know, female.”

“Ohhhhh…”

 

[JanetF]

How else are they going to find their tribe?:

Well, I usually start with the most important things about me…
Catholic, who likes to read, quilt, has a great dane, whatever. My sexual preference it’s at the top of the list

 

[DarkLight]

Imagine the do-gooders trying to set up an LGBT person.

Also if one is somewhat attractive (physically or otherwise), there will be offers. And it can cause rather a stir if a certain person keeps turning them down.

 

[Thorolfr]

How else are they going to find their tribe?

That’s why going to my first “pride” parade when I was 21 was important to me. There was something amazing about going from the isolated rural community where I was living and didn’t know a single other gay person to being in a place where I was surrounded by thousands of other people like me. I didn’t feel like such a freak anymore.

And I belong to other tribes as well. After I was diagnosed with ADHD, I found online forums for people with ADHD, subscribed to a magazine for people with ADHD and joined the Attention Deficit Disorder Association. It’s kind of nice to have a place to go where I can find useful information, vent about the difficulties I encounter because of my ADHD and read posts from other people who deal with so many of the same kinds of issues.

And being Catholic is also like belonging to a kind of tribe, so it’s not surprising that some Catholics like to come to a place like CAF where they can talk to other people that are part of their tribe.

 

[theCardinalbird]

Somehow I think Jesus would be more concerned with how refugees are treated than by what a gay person does in bed.

I have a feeling he would be concerned with both. Don’t think for a moment that God doesn’t care about what we humans do with ourselves, because he does care.

 

[Thorolfr]

Don’t think for a moment that God doesn’t care about what we humans do with ourselves, because he does care.

This is an issue I struggle with because if God really cared what all humans do with themselves, he wouldn’t allow some of them to have much more than they need while others are homeless and in some place starve to death. I live in an area where lots of wealthy people own second or even third homes, some of which are worth several million dollars and many of them sit empty for much of the year while their owners are at one of the other houses they own. And yet, I see homeless people sleeping under the overpasses. I went to the home of someone here once who had 7 luxury cars in their garage, including two Bentleys. But I know people here who have no transportation.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

And I belong to other tribes as well. After I was diagnosed with ADHD, I found online forums for people with ADHD, subscribed to a magazine for people with ADHD and joined the Attention Deficit Disorder Association. It’s kind of nice to have a place to go where I can find useful information, vent about the difficulties I encounter because of my ADHD and read posts from other people who deal with so many of the same kinds of issues.

Yes. The ALS support group was vital when after my mom was diagnosed. At least there we didn’t have to correct assumptions and could talk about some of the humbling and humiliating aspects of living with the disease. I also like fandoms so I can nerd out over stuff and not watch a person’s eyes glaze over from annoyance or boredom.

And being Catholic is also like belonging to a kind of tribe, so it’s not surprising that some Catholics like to come to a place like CAF where they can talk to other people that are part of their tribe.

Yes! There have been various threads on CAF about weird or uncomfortable experiences Catholics have with non-Catholics. I went to a singles event that was open to singles of any faith but held at a Baptist church. During lunch I was sitting with some other young women and suddenly everyone started sharing where they worshiped. The parish I belonged to had very, very Catholic sounding name and when I said it, two women looked at each other and without saying a word got up and left and a third soon followed. Sometimes you just want hang with people who don’t think you are going to hell.

 

[theCardinalbird]

he wouldn’t allow some of them to have much more than they need while others are homeless and in some place starve to death.

But you forget that God gave us free will. It is unfortunate that people live in so much luxury while others are poor, but we were given free will because God loves us, even though people abuse this gift.

Also before anyone asks, “Well why doesn’t he just take free will away?” the reason could be that he wants us to freely love him and that we would essentially be nothing but puppets controlled by strings should free will be taken away.

God cares about what we do, but to say he has to ensure that every kind of suffering does not happen (even to the pure of heart) means that free will cannot exist. He would have to control everything and everyone to the point where we would cease to have our own freedom to choose him and do right.

Because we live in a world that is affected by sin and therefore imperfect there is no way for God to completely eradicate suffering. Evil (Satan) has some control in this world and therefore there will be problems. Thankfully God is here to prevent Earth from being literal hell, including that he tries to reach out to all humanity through his Church. That is why the Christian message is so important. It is the Church that has to constantly teach humanity to rise from the flesh and its desires (Pride, Lust, Greed, etc.) and hopefully God will speak to them and convert them to his ways of living, which includes loving others, helping others and teaching others to do the same.