What Bad Experiences you have had with Wicca?

[cheddarsox]

bennie,

when you use that font, like the last one in your last post, I find it impossible to read your posts. Just a heads up. I don’t know if others have this problem, but I do have a large, high resolution monitor, and I still can’t read it, not even up close and squinting.

cheddar

 

[Imryl]

Oh, you’re talking about LaVeyan satanism. Well, that makes it even less likely that their unstable. When you ‘dabble’ in satanism that somewhat implies diabolism. LaVeyan Satanism is more of a philosophy.

Typically LaVeyan people are intelligent, it’s the diabolists (satanism) that have psychological, emotional or maturity issues.

Funny though… Coming from me. But what can I say, I’m an elitist.

 

[KarenNC]

yes my points—I was referring to Catholics making the comparison to the medieval times of witchcraft and today’s, not Wiccans. And I think of New Age as being a broad category covering everything from the Enlightenment of the early/mid 1800’s to current times–not just pagan recontruction or neos. Like the ‘Age of Aquarius’ or ‘Age of the Goddess/Mother’.
Ravyn

Understood, but for someone who is not familiar with the Neopagan community, I think it is important to make the distinction clear between what is meant by Wicca and what is meant by historic witchcraft. However, I think your definition of New Age is a bit broader than most would consider. The time period I usually see starts in about the 1970s-80s, though the groundwork for much of it began in the 1960s

answers.com/topic/new-age

One of my points was to clarify that, while there is definitely some overlap between the New Age and Neopagan communities, a great many Pagan Reconstructionists and Neopagans do not self-identify as part of the New Age movement (as I do not).

 

[KarenNC]

** Here are a couple good links for Catholics and other Christians that want to know more about the Good, bad and the Ugly of Wicca and it’s connection to Darkness.
Dispelling the Charms of Wicca

and Satanism, Witchcraft and Church Feminists **

Bennie, would you choose to go to a Wiccan site to learn the “truth” about the Catholic Church and expect an accurate representation of it? Even a Southern Baptist site? Or would you say that it might make more sense to actually ask a Catholic or go to a Roman Catholic site?

I’m afraid sites that consider Montague Summers to be an objective historical record and are otherwise based on very outdated scholarship will not be very helpful in actually understanding much about current Wiccan teachings.

** It is hard to now the truth if you discount the true history of the movement and If you don’t know all the players. Wicca produced material will omit or play down the truth of its origins. Wicca does not only reject Christianity but has an anti-Christian origin to its core. **

That’s one reason I recommend Hutton’s book as he is an historian and writing about it as an historian. I will be the first to admit that there is much that is totally worthless that is published in the name of Wicca, and that many authors have become so self-referential as to be useless in terms of understanding actual history (though if you have been in a Christian bookstore lately, you will see this phenomenon is not limited to books on Wicca).

BTW, Cheddar is absolutely correct, your posts are so microscopic as to be almost unreadable.

 

[Bennie_P]

Dispelling the Charms of Wicca

and Satanism, Witchcraft and Church Feminists

Bennie, would you choose to go to a Wiccan …

There is no reason to go to a Wicca site ever, and why would someone that has already concluded there is no truth to be found there, even waste thier time to go there? I not a searcher, I’m a believer.

This whole thing comes down to what each of us accepts as the truth. My truth is found in Jesus Christ.

I don’t reject neo-paganism because I believe it to be pure fantasy, though I see a lot fantasy role playing being played out by the majority that toy with it. I reject it becuase it is a false religion. And if you think that intolerant of me, just remember, I’m not the one that is going to neo-pagan forums trying to tell pagans, warlocks or peanut butter and jelly sand-wiches that they are wrong in what they believe about Christians and Christianity is totally wrong and they are very small sighted in thier views and knowledge about Christianity. I leave pagans to thier own designs and desires. I don’t seek them out to destroy them, nor debunk them. **So what are you searching for? **

If you are searching for tolerance of neo-paganism within the Catholic Church, it’s not going to happen. This quote from Fulton Sheen’s definition" “Tolerance is the acceptance of evil.” Sorry that is not allowed, if I want to stay faithful to God and Mother Church.

There are those that see Wicca just a fantasy and they see absolutely no harm in it.Then there are those that believe it to true, but also believe it be “the truth” and see no harm in it. Then there are those that see that is not only a dangerous toy, but has some connection to the supernatural - but not the light nor the truth -

By the world standards I am insane, I believe in a God that loved me so much that he came down from heaven, was born of virgin in order to share humanity with me and save me and you if you would trust in him, from self destruction. He died and rose again. He promised he would be with me until death then he will also resurrect me and my body as he did.

I don’t know what chedder and you really mean by microscopic, but I have dissected, maped out every linkage, connection, and influence of Wicca, New Age, New Thought, neo-paganism, and all other anti-Christian concepts. and it all leads to the same question?
"And What is Truth?
That question was asked nearly 2000 years ago. But the answer was given before the question was even asked; "Whoever belongs to the truth listens to me." and who has the truth?
**For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written: I will catch the wise in their own craftiness. And again: The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. Let no man therefore glory in men.1Cor 3:19 - 21

JMJ ><>
**

 

[cheddarsox]

I don’t know what chedder and you really mean by microscopic, but I have dissected, maped out every linkage, connection, and influence of Wicca, New Age, New Thought, neo-paganism, and all other anti-Christian concepts. and it all leads to the same question?
"And What is Truth?
That question was asked nearly 2000 years ago. But the answer was given before the question was even asked; "Whoever belongs to the truth listens to me." and who has the truth?
**For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written: I will catch the wise in their own **craft****iness. And again: The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. Let no man therefore glory in men.1Cor 3:19 - 21

JMJ ><>

what we mean by microscopic is that part of your posts are posting in font so small that I cannot read it.

That makes it hard to discuss, because I cannot see all of what you are posting.

 

[Bennie_P]

Then her faith came up, she started defending herself as I had accused her. In actuality I had said nothing.

Then she let me say well this is what I actually believe, she would counter, I would return, it bacame a good discussion, we both kept trying to convert each other so I said why dont we just agree on what we do and leave the rest. We did. I found it interesting she felt accused the second she met me. I just gave her understanding but remained firm, it was Christ whom I followed. .

This is interesting, because I know when I was not living as a Christian after I had years before become one, I found myself being super critical of Christianity, always accusing Christians as judging me. when in reality it was I who was judging myself for no one else was accusing me of anything.

When in the early 90’s I had come to a point of rejecting Christianity for the spirituality of Wicca, after many, many years away from it and Shamanism, which I found to be more of a “real” way to go, anything Christian just seemed to be oppressive. I almost left my wife because she was Catholic. I thought I needed to find a soul mate among the pagans I found myself hanging around with. Thank God her Catholicism taught her to hang on to our marriage, until God turned me back toward the true light of Christ.

 

[KarenNC]

There is no reason to go to a Wicca site ever

If you would not expect to find an accurate representation of the Catholic faith at a Wiccan site or a Southern Baptist one or a Muslim one, etc, then why should anyone reasonably expect to find an accurate representation of the Wiccan faith at a Catholic site? Heck, I can’t even claim to be the best source on info on Wicca as it is not and never has been my faith. I can only pass on what I have learned from others and observed in my interactions with Wiccans over the years. On this thread, Ian is probably the best resource for that.

**. I leave pagans to thier own designs and desires. I don’t seek them out to destroy them, nor debunk them. **So what are you searching for? ****

If you will note, the title of the forum is “Non-Catholic Religions.” If you read the information provided by the moderators at the beginning of the forum the purpose is to “explore the history and beliefs of non-Catholic and non-Christian faiths, dialogue with their adherents.” If you are not interested in talking with those of other faiths, I am surprised you are on this particular forum, as it is no secret that non-Catholics are here and might reasonably be expected to post responses to threads.

I suppose it is possible to sit around with one’s co-religionists and discuss the beliefs of another religion if one’s aim is merely to reinforce the ideas about it taught by one’s own religion (for instance, a group of Muslims or Southern Baptists or Buddhists sitting around and discussing what Catholics believe). However, if one’s goal is to actually learn something likely to be accurate about another religion as its adherents understand and practice it, it is more useful to talk with people who follow that religion, as the moderators understand.

If This Rock, a publication from this group, had not put out an article on “Anti-Neopagan Apologetics” detailing how to proselytize to Neopagans (and doing a bad job of it, btw), I would not be here. I would never have heard of this site. Your group sought us out and began the process, not the other way around.

You will note that I am not running around posting in all the other areas of CAF (nor am on any other Catholic or Christian forums). I am here, on the Non-Catholic Religions board, posting in answer to questions and misinformation about faiths with which I have some personal experience. I am not starting threads about what I believe is wrong about Christianity or attempting to convert anyone and I invite you to read any post I have made in the 5+ months I have been here to show otherwise. I have no vested interest in getting you to convert to my religion–there is no incentive or directive in my religion about proselytizing. I simply dislike misinformation and try to correct it when I find it, as there is too much out there. I also, however, do not feel compelled to pretend that I believe anything other than what I actually believe and will say so in theological discussions. I will point out what I see to be inaccurate information or flaws in logic in the arguments of others, just as I expect them to do to my arguments.

As I have said in other threads where the accusation has come up that Neopagans (and, actually, all non-Catholics) who come to this board are trolls out to undermine Catholicism, you should regard the presence of every non-Christian who takes the time to actually have a discussion with you on this board about their actual beliefs as a gift. Your religion instructs you to proselytize. You will be much more successful at it if you actually understand what the other person believes rather than falling into stereotypes and being dismissed out of hand.

As an example, if I, for some unknown reason, were to decide that it was incumbent upon me to try to convert Catholics to my religion, I would have an easier time even beginning the discussion if I could talk with some understanding about what Catholics actually believe. Coming in and telling them that they should convert to my religion because we don’t engage in cannibalistic rituals and don’t worship statues (incorrect teachings about what Catholics believe and do that unfortunately persist today) is not going to get me very far, as the Catholic is going to look at me like I have three heads for thinking that Catholics actually do those things (an example of believing in false stereotypes about a group). Nor would I get far if I said that the person should convert because we don’t have to tie ducks to our heads and dance the hornpipe on the church lawn on alternate Tuesdays, even if I have personally met a Catholic who did so (an example of making generalizations to an entire group based on the behavior of a few in the group).

 

[KarenNC]

Then her faith came up, she started defending herself as if I had accused her. In actuality I had said nothing.I found it interesting she felt accused the second she met me.

Might be similar to the way that a lot of posters to this forum as a whole seem to think that if someone posts and disagrees with them on some point or says they have a different experience, they are being attacked and their religion threatened. It goes both ways. Also, the woman may have had a history of being in contact with Christians or Catholics who did accuse and attack her verbally for her beliefs without provocation.

 

[IanCorrigan]

Bennie

**I’m not the one that is going to neo-pagan forums trying to tell pagans, warlocks or peanut butter and jelly sand-wiches that they are wrong in what they believe about Christians and Christianity is totally wrong **

But you did choose a Christian forum to troll for insults to another religion. This looks to me like a faith that needs to be affirmed by looking for dirt in corners to smear on competing systems.

**If you are searching for tolerance of neo-paganism within the Catholic Church, it’s not going to happen. **

I’m looking for tolerance/acceptance/growth in the larger society, the Catholic church (and Catholic people, more importantly) can come along or not. In the meantime some of us try to stay watchful, lest some little pocket of piety fester into actual slander, or worse, of our paths.

(Not) Sorry if we interrupted your bash-parade with the facts.
Ian

 

[Bennie_P]

I went from a “God stays in church, don’t talk about Him because it’s embarassing” Presbyterian upringing to being thrown into the moral wasteland that was college in the early 90s. Within months I was identifying as a Wiccan, reading up on Shamanism, writing “angelic runes” on my doorposts to keep “unwanted spirits” out.

I don’t think it’s coincidental that during this time period I began to drink to blackout, do drugs, and engage in wildly immoral sexual behavior.

I can relate to this, I have found many that struggle with different with periods of abusive behavior, very much so myself, that had some sort of Christian background but choose to fill that spot with “unfamilier spirits” saw themselves doing things that were self-destructive. Just like like the story from Matthew Chapter 12
And when an unclean spirit is gone out of a man he walketh through dry places seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith: I will return into my house from whence I came out. And coming he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then he goeth, and taketh with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is made worse than the first. So shall it be also to this wicked generation.
Many don’t think there is a spirit world and principalities out to destroy those that have chosen or have been chosen by God. By being raised in the Presbyterian church, were you baptised as an infant? Or any other time before you slipped into Wicca?

 

[Rose79]

In Wicca (as with most religions), what you get out of it depends on what you put into it. If you practice Wicca because you want to be a bad, to rebel against your family or society, then you’ll probably turn it into a very self destructive path. On the other hand, if you’re interested in Wicca because of the spirituality, the beauty of ritual, and the closeness with Nature, then it will probably be a very rewarding and spiritually fulfilling experience.

Don’t blame the religion for your bad behavior. Wicca didn’t make you do it.

 

[Bennie_P]

I’m looking for tolerance/acceptance/growth in the larger society, the Catholic church (and Catholic people, more importantly) can come along or not. In the meantime some of us try to stay watchful, lest some little pocket of piety fester into actual slander, or worse, of our paths.

(Not) Sorry if we interrupted your bash-parade with the facts.
Ian

I appoligize for being rude, as for tolerance in the lager society you have that with me, I will not seek out neo-pagans to do them harm. I believe in free-will of all, for God freely gave us all the gift to freely choose.

Saying that you cannot expect Catholics and Christians to accept that the spirituality you choose to follow can intermingle within the Church and her teachings, for to be Christian is to accept Christ as the only path to follow.

I know also that early followers of Christ did not go to the pagan lands and convert by the sword, but many died at the hand of pagans while taking the message of Christ to them. The Pagans did convert by the droves and it was because of the message of God’s love and not by the sword.(I not dimissing the many things that happen under the name of Christ once Christianity was no longer a underground movement) Many of us Christians today do need to learn to spread that meassage of love as our early Church fathers did and much of that is slowly being relearned.

Saying that, I know many that follow neo-pagan spirituality are honestly trying to recapture something that looks innocent, back to the land and of love. Though I thought that once and in someways experienced it, I do believe neo-paganism is split between fantasy, such as we see in the popularity of “fluff” and enjoyed in children’s books and movies such as in Harry Potter, TB White’s “Once and Future King” and so on and so forth, much of which (the movies and books)I have enjoyed with my own children. And I have seen the dark side of such spirituality, I have personally watched it destroy peoples lives. I believe if you would be honest you know of people that crossed that line, and just to blame it on mental instabilty and insanity is to deny there is a spirit world in which evil exist. And if you deny there is a spirit world, then what you teach and sing about is just play acting.
.

An observation of an Athiest friend,(which I didn’t understand when it was told to me.) He said, "The world is dividing up into tribes, and tribal living can only lead us to all out War. that is what the Germans were doing under Hilter, that is how the world was before the time of the Roman Empire and that was the world during old Testament times,’ He concluded, “that sucks” He said that to me after I returned from a Rainbow Gathering in Vermont in the early 90s and I told him of what I saw and experienced, which at the time I thought was good.

He thought I was nuts then and now that I returned to Christianity he will not even talk to me.

But now, I think I understand, for Christ came to do away with the tribes(as in the divisions between the tribes of Israel and the tribes of the gentles[pagans])and to bring us the Kingdom of God. As humans we fail to live the lives he taught us to live. and because we failed to live those those lives the world is separating/dividing back into the tribes. Which is good until the other tribe wants what you got. Tribes only work when they have common ground and beliefs and many miles separating you. You can’t have that with anything goes and playing like or thinking it was better in the far past, that is failure in wisdom both for pagans and Christians.

Christ was offering us the furture and a present reality, one step at a time, one day at a time. I don’t know how to explain it, except we have to die to ourselves and serve others and I don’t see that happening in neo-paganism or the world in general. But the more I study Christ, I’m understanding what he was and that is the truth.

I have rambled to the point of making little sense, but that’s Ok, may the peace of God be with you.

For both the Jews require signs: and the Greeks seek after wisdom. But we preach Christ crucified: unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness: But unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God. 1Cor 1:22 - 24

And Ian I do realize you are in the “business” of spreading the message of the neo-pagans, you are in your way envangelizing, but also spreading discord. Link : Ian Corrigan

 

[KarenNC]

**Saying that you cannot expect Catholics and Christians to accept that the spirituality you choose to follow can intermingle within the Church and her teachings, for to be Christian is to accept Christ as the only path to follow. **

To ask that one and one’s religion be treated civilly is not to ask for wholesale acceptance and adherence to a belief system. I neither accept nor believe that Catholicism, any other form of Christianity, or any other form of monotheism, for that matter, provides an adequate explanation for the spiritual reality that I experience (if I did I would follow one of them). This does not mean that I go out of my way to paint monotheistic religions in the worst light possible.

As Aristotle said, “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.”

**I know also that early followers of Christ did not go to the pagan lands and convert by the sword, but many died at the hand of pagans while taking the message of Christ to them. The Pagans did convert by the droves and it was because of the message of God’s love and not by the sword.(I not dimissing the many things that happen under the name of Christ once Christianity was no longer a underground movement) **

As with any group, once they become the ones in power, they tend to act like the ones they just defeated in abusing that power.

Saying that, I know many that follow neo-pagan spirituality are honestly trying to recapture something that looks innocent, back to the land and of love. Though I thought that once and in someways experienced it, I do believe neo-paganism is split between fantasy, such as we see in the popularity of “fluff” and enjoyed in children’s books and movies such as in Harry Potter, TB White’s “Once and Future King” and so on and so forth, much of which (the movies and books)I have enjoyed with my own children. And I have seen the dark side of such spirituality, I have personally watched it destroy peoples lives. I believe if you would be honest you know of people that crossed that line, and just to blame it on mental instabilty and insanity is to deny there is a spirit world in which evil exist. And if you deny there is a spirit world, then what you teach and sing about is just play acting.

I think you will find that most folks who are serious followers of Neopagan religions are well aware that all is not “goodness and light” nor a playacting. I do not follow my Gods because of some utopian fantasy portrayal of them but because of my real experiences of them. The fantasy of a peaceful, matriarchal, Mother-Goddess-worshipping, pan-European Neolithic society is just that, a mythic fantasy that is not supported by the evidence available to us today. The ancients were aware of and respected the forces of the spiritual world, realizing that not all were inclined to even notice humanity, and that those which did were not uniformly benevolently inclined if at all.

There is definitely a record within your own tradition of the dark side of your own spiritual reality. That you choose not to follow the dark side of it is no different than that I do not choose to follow the dark aspects of the spiritual reality that I see.

** But now, I think I understand, for Christ came to do away with the tribes(as in the divisions between the tribes of Israel and the tribes of the gentles[pagans])and to bring us the Kingdom of God. As humans we fail to live the lives he taught us to live. and because we failed to live those those lives the world is separating/dividing back into the tribes. Which is good until the other tribe wants what you got. Tribes only work when they have common ground and beliefs and many miles separating you. You can’t have that with anything goes and playing like or thinking it was better in the far past, that is failure in wisdom both for pagans and Christians. **

Christianity only extends the tribe beyond blood/place lines, not replaces it. You are doing quite well in showing an example of the “us vs. them” approach that is no different than that shown in any tribal situation. “Tribes only work when they have common ground and beliefs”----Christianity only works if everyone agrees to follow the same beliefs, Christian ones.

**I don’t know how to explain it, except we have to die to ourselves and serve others and I don’t see that happening in neo-paganism or the world in general. **

Serving others is happening all over the world, in Neopaganism, in other religions, and among those who do not follow a specific religion.

 

[Bennie_P]

As Aristotle said, “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.”

I tire of this. You won the debate.

 

[strngrnrth]

I became interested in magic at around 11, and by the time I was 13 I was having nightmares and terrible stress symptoms. Friends and I were regressing one another to alleged past lives in trances. I thought that whatever I ordered with my mind to appear and then conjured up in my imagination was real; I got that from a book. I did spells for weather and prayed to goddesses of nature all the time. I drifted out of that stuff in my teens and then started reading more and more about real pagan traditions. At about 16 I was getting slowly involved again. By the time I was 22, I’d decided I was Wiccan. I was possessed at a friend’s house. It was sickening. I won’t describe the next several years but that kind of life isn’t a life. It was long ago but I still flash back sometimes. Now I know a lot of pagans and I care about them but when I’m around some of them I feel like I’m breathing some suffocating gas.

 

[Ahimsa]

VATICAN CITY, FEB. 3, 2003 (Zenit.org).- The Vatican’s new document on New Age includes a “select glossary” of terms related to the spiritual movement.

The terms appear in the appendix of the document “Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of Life: A Christian Reflection on the New Age,” signed by the Pontifical Council for Culture and the Pontifical Council for Interrreligious Dialogue. Here are excerpts from the glossary:
…
– Wicca: an old English term for witches that has been given to a neo-pagan revival of some elements of ritual magic. It was invented in England in 1939 by Gerald Gardner, who based it on some scholarly texts, according to which medieval European witchcraft was an ancient nature religion persecuted by Christians. Called “the Craft”, it grew rapidly in the 1960s in the United States, where it encountered “women’s spirituality.”

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Lets see…

I started attending Franciscan Univ of Steubenville, and got involved with Wicca/Witchcraft when my best friend did.
I continued to dabble a little here and there, keeping some ort of tie with it.

After I returned to my parents’ home (after an abusive relationship), I started to identify myself as a pagan. Most specifically a Feminist Witch.
I was the president and media representative for the group.

All I will say is that after a particularly nasty “reiki” incident that landed me and another member in the hospital (more specifically the psych wing), I came back to the church.

 

[Maxply]

It’s nice to see how the self-designated pagans here have immediately jumped up to claim the moral high ground, making noises about tolerance and “not all pagans” do bad stuff, etc.

That trick’s getting old everywhere around the political spectrum. Judgements, like laws, apply to generalized situations and certainly there are specific instances or individuals which don’t fit under the generalization. This said, we must live by generalizations, like it or not, and rules and laws, whether or not they’re kind to each concrete situation.

My “bad experience” with wicca is simply being looked down upon by wiccans who claim theirs is a more truly holy kind of religion. I also see a kind of willfulness, obstinateness in wiccans which blinds them to taking a clear look at religions such as Christianity. The wiccans I have met have been mainly intelligent people who are self-educated, and desirous of showing off their native intelligence through the “craft” or “mysteries” of wicca.

It’s the moral self-righteousness of wiccans that makes for my bad experiences.

 

[KarenNC]

**It’s nice to see how the self-designated pagans here have immediately jumped up to claim the moral high ground, making noises about tolerance and “not all pagans” do bad stuff, etc.

That trick’s getting old everywhere around the political spectrum. Judgements, like laws, apply to generalized situations and certainly there are specific instances or individuals which don’t fit under the generalization. This said, we must live by generalizations, like it or not, and rules and laws, whether or not they’re kind to each concrete situation.**

I agree that we have to live by generalizations, to some extent, but those generalizations are only truly useful when they represent a large enough sample to be meaningful. I do not recall (as this thread is over a month old) any arguments from those of us in the Neopagan community that claim that there are not fringe or extremist elements or people who are Neopagans of one sort or another who are not folks you (or I) would like to be around. Any religion has its vocal fringe and its percentage of unpleasant and down right nasty folks.

What I do remember hearing is the argument that “I have been and continue to be a practicing member of the Neopagan community and the actions you are describing are not representative of the folks that I have encountered over the years who have identified as Wiccan.” If hypothetical person A bases their judgement of a group on interactions with 5 to 10 people claiming membership in the group over a span of 2 years and hypothetical person B bases their judgement of the same group on interactions with 5000+ people claiming membership in the group over a span of 20 years, whose judgement is most likely to approach the norm for that group?

**My “bad experience” with wicca is simply being looked down upon by wiccans who claim theirs is a more truly holy kind of religion. I also see a kind of willfulness, obstinateness in wiccans which blinds them to taking a clear look at religions such as Christianity. The wiccans I have met have been mainly intelligent people who are self-educated, and desirous of showing off their native intelligence through the “craft” or “mysteries” of wicca.

It’s the moral self-righteousness of wiccans that makes for my bad experiences.**

And I would reply that this sort of bad experience is hardly unique to encounters of Christians with Wiccans. There are the morally self-righteous in all religions as well and it doesn’t make for a fun time for those on the other side.