What Bad Experiences you have had with Wicca?

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

the diff between magic(k) and miracles is that magic(k) is practiced by the human and miracles are practiced by the Deity.
Christianity is a surrendering of your will to the will of Jesus, based on faith. Wicca/paganism/and yes-even Satanism is an empowering of the person’s will. If that is what you want in a religion then go for it. But sooner ot later you will come up empty.
The original lie stated that humans would become like God-knowing good from bad (implying that we would be able to discern and make our own decisions without answering to anyone but ourselves…hmmmm makes me think of ‘harm ye none do what thou wilt’) --putting humans on an equal footing with God, seeking egalaterian friendship/companionship with Deity, sound familliar Wiccans? This is hubris.
Ravyn

 

[Nevarlander]

Wicca is not a continuation of any ancient religion. It began in the early to mid 20th century with Gerald Gardner, as most of the Wiccans I have encountered will freely admit.

Is it a “I just made this up so here’s what we’re going to do” religion like Scientology?

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Is it a “I just made this up so here’s what we’re going to do” religion like Scientology?

Pretty much.
Esp eclectic pagans. They take a little of this, little of that, and make something up that feels good to them. And what fits them at that time.
There is no conforming to your religion, or changing yourself for the betterment of yourself. You change your religion to fit you.

 

[hosemonkey]

Pretty much.
Esp eclectic pagans. They take a little of this, little of that, and make something up that feels good to them. And what fits them at that time.
There is no conforming to your religion, or changing yourself for the betterment of yourself. You change your religion to fit you.

Agreed! These practitioners of wicca and other abberations are very self-deluded people. Cut-to-fit religions are nothing but ashes in the mouth and poison to the soul. Better to find your way into the True Church, wherein subsists the light of Christ. You are, of course, free to believe what you will. But you will pay the price for your pride and arrogance. I will continue to pray for you to be led to the light.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Agreed! These practitioners of wicca and other abberations are very self-deluded people. Cut-to-fit religions are nothing but ashes in the mouth and poison to the soul. Better to find your way into the True Church, wherein subsists the light of Christ. You are, of course, free to believe what you will. But you will pay the price for your pride and arrogance. I will continue to pray for you to be led to the light.

I am already here

 

[hosemonkey]

I am already here

I know that you are, I direct my comments to those who are caught in this trap of self-delusion.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

I know that you are, I direct my comments to those who are caught in this trap of self-delusion.

gotcha

 

[hosemonkey]

gotcha

I grew up in the New Age movement, my parents were primordial hippies and hooked on to every crackpot religion that came down the pike. We had gurus, swamis, pagans, metaphysical teachers, vegans and magicians. I became so disgusted with this circus troupe that I professed atheism and contempt for all religion. It was only after long study that I became convinced that Christianity and in particular, the Holy Catholic Church, was the True Faith. All others are imperfect and most are a sham. These folks can talk for hours and say nothing. Wicca, witchcraft and paganism are not of God, they are of this world, and we know who is the Prince of this world. Sorry to be harsh, but I dislike deception and falsehood.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

I grew up in the New Age movement, my parents were primordial hippies and hooked on to every crackpot religion that came down the pike. We had gurus, swamis, pagans, metaphysical teachers, vegans and magicians. I became so disgusted with this circus troupe that I professed atheism and contempt for all religion. It was only after long study that I became convinced that Christianity and in particular, the Holy Catholic Church, was the True Faith. All others are imperfect and most are a sham. These folks can talk for hours and say nothing. Wicca, witchcraft and paganism are not of God, they are of this world, and we know who is the Prince of this world. Sorry to be harsh, but I dislike deception and falsehood.

Vegans? As a (mostly) vegan, I take offense to that

 

[hosemonkey]

Vegans? As a (mostly) vegan, I take offense to that

Sorry, but let me explain the basis for my comment. We attended an ashram in the California mountains were the diet was strictly vegetarian. Late one night, I was awakened by a delicious aroma coming from the downstairs kitchen. I came downstairs and found one of the most hardcore and vociferous vegans enjoying a nice mess of pork chops. It is the sometimes hypocracy that bothers me.
I have no problem with vegans, I just enjoy my pork chops too much to be one.

 

[KarenNC]

And from my own personal experiences, intent has nothing to with it and any form of enegetic maipulation of any type (spell work, reiki, etc) is demonic.

I am curious—you state that you believe that any form of manipulation of energy is demonic. Why, specifically?

 

[PatienceAndLove]

I am curious—you state that you believe that any form of manipulation of energy is demonic. Why, specifically?

Because it opens you up to other things being able to take the place of what you think you are doing. Spellwork/reiki is just giving Satan another pathway to manipulate/lie to you.

 

[KarenNC]

Because it opens you up to other things being able to take the place of what you think you are doing. Spellwork/reiki is just giving Satan another pathway to manipulate/lie to you.

People manipulate energy all the time. When you turn on a light, turn on your television or cd player, type on your computer, turn on your stove, start your car, you are manipulating energy. You are manipulating energy to accomplish your desired ends and affect your environment in ways that would have seemed “demonic” to people a few centuries ago who did not understand the natural principles and mechanics behind the observed action. Personally, I am not drawn to spellwork, reiki and the like, nor do I claim to understand the specific mechanisms by which they work when they do, but I don’t see them as intrinsically evil. I look more to the fruits of them–are they good or are they not?

Honestly, all the spells I have ever encountered look pretty much like prayers with window dressing to me (admittedly others with more experience in this matter may have different information–Ian?), certainly something that is not unknown in the Catholic Church. If I do this prayer in this manner, this many times, using these words and these actions along with these objects, I am more likely to be heard or to get a desired response because I am doing it properly. There are plenty of examples of Catholic prayers that have a prescribed order, accompanying phyiscal actions, using specific tools (rosary, blessed candles, blessed water, incense, etc) in specific ways. If the use of such in Catholic ritual is not opening oneself up for other things to take the place of the Being to which you think you are praying, I don’t see why the use of such in a Wiccan or other ritual is intrinsically any more likely to do so.

 

[IanCorrigan]

**Honestly, all the spells I have ever encountered look pretty much like prayers with window dressing to me (admittedly others with more experience in this matter may have different information–Ian?), certainly something that is not unknown in the Catholic Church. **

I think the primary difference between prayer and spellbinding is that a prayer is a request for some divine being to make something happen, while a spell intends to use spiritual methods to cause something to happen based on the will of the spellcaster. A spell applies what magic understands as the hidden laws of nature and spirit to allow individual humans to influence the world. In this sense, magic is not different from technology and science - it means to understand the ways the world works, and exert human will through them.

That’s why both science and magic were distrusted by the church. A religion that believes that human will is inevitably corrupt (a vile doctrine) can’t help but be suspicious of anything that empowers that human will.

Some Pagan systems found the idea of human spiritual power impious, but many others accept that the divine presence in the human make-up grants us both the power and the authority to use magic for our own good and the good of our people.

Ian

 

[KarenNC]

I think the primary difference between prayer and spellbinding is that a prayer is a request for some divine being to make something happen, while a spell intends to use spiritual methods to cause something to happen based on the will of the spellcaster.

Thanks, I knew you had a lot more familiarity with it than I do, as it is never something that I have been drawn to as part of religious practice. I’m more on the prayer end. Sounds like I had it partially right, but only partially .

 

[Writer]

For a reminder on how the Church should/does understand magic, one might want to re-read the account of Peter and the magician in Acts 8:19-24. (I don’t have my Bible in my office, but this seems to be the right passage from a Google query.)

I think we have to ask ourselves who founded the particular faith or belief system. If it wasn’t Christ, we should infer that it is not of God, and therefore it should be avoided.

Sorry, if this sounds harsh, but it seems that some here might be playing around with some pretty dangerous fire. Yes, Christ is stronger than the world, but we can’t serve two masters.

 

[Cari]

That’s why both science and magic were distrusted by the church. A religion that believes that human will is inevitably corrupt (a vile doctrine) can’t help but be suspicious of anything that empowers that human will.

By “church”, I assume you mean the Christian church. Interesting, then, that prohibitions against magic were to be found in Jewish writings. If Christians prohibit magic, then they’re not alone. Judiasm and Islam do the same.

As for the tired old, “the church distrusts science” line- I suggest you do some research on that one. The Catholic Church has been a staunch supporter of responsible science and scientific research.

 

[cheddarsox]

Cheddar,
From my POV, it kind of depends on whose power we’re looking for, but we don’t automatically expect things to work “magically”, with the forms of what we do being a guarantee of getting what we’re asking for. It also depends on one’s intentions. One’s supposed to be doing these rituals out of love for the Deity, not for the power they give us. I haven’t actually heard much from pagans about loving their deities (though if that’s just a strand I’ve missed in their beliefs, feel more than free to correct me).

Something I notice frequently is that numerous threads on CAF and a pagan forum I belong to are nearly indistinguishable. Not that that is surprising, people will bring up similar issues when it comes to religion. But exchange deity for saint, spell for novena, amulet for medal or scapular, and the threads are nearly word for word the same.

While there are pagan religions that seem focused on personal power, there are many that are very much about loving, honoring, worshipping deity, and where the deities are prayed to and the power is understood not to be of self.

I understand that Catholicism recognizes that other religions hold some truth, but not the fullness of the truth, and I have often wondered if these “overlapping”, areas are such areas of truth.

There are widely varying understandings and uses of “magic” in the religions of the world. Sometimes when people hear the word “magic”, they assume an certain dark/occult understanding, that may not apply to the way another faith understands and uses it.

In fact, your post that I quoted here is remarkably similar to things I read from pagan posters all the time.

The “eye of newt, pinch of toad” style of magic is alive and well among some groups, but when people come to the pagan boards asking for a spell that will “magically” address whatever situation they are facing, it is more likely that people will tell them to address the situation using old fashioned common sense and hard work, than to provide a “recipe” for success.

The understandings and theology behind amulets, statues, spells,energy work and the like, is also usually more nuanced and complex than outsiders give it credit for.

While paganism certainly has it’s share of flakes and “look at what I can do” magicians, most people do seem to honestly be working on their spirituality, their relationship to one another and their deities, and taking care of their day to day lives using elbow grease.

 

[cheddarsox]

Shoot

How so?

Consecration and a blessing are two different things. Jesus, Himself, gave us the words of consecration, and passed on His Spirit to the disciples, given them, and those they laid hands on, the ability to use the Spirit. Consecration is the miraculous changing of the bread and the wine via the power of the Holy Spirit, not the manipulation of energy by the priest. The words of Consecration are the tangible reminders to us of what Jesus gave up for us, and it is through the Eucharistic prayer and the words of the consecration that the Holy Spirit changes the bread and the wine in to the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus.

A blessing is the asking of Jesus/Mary/Saint to pray for us (in the instance of Mary/Saint, and the official “I love you and you are Mine” of Jesus).

Neither of these involves the manipulation of energy by the person doing it. It is just done.

I hope my explanations helped. I will be glad to clarify anything you would like.

Nope, no magic here. Just your average miracle

I’m not trying to be argumentative, but having lived as a Catholic for 20 years, and having been part of the pagan community for 15, I still find a hard time seeing the differences between many of the practices.

I admit that many of the Catholics around me were of the superstitious type and used scapulars, miraculous medals, and novenas in rather simplistic “good luck charm” sorts of ways.

But even so, having been schooled in proper Catholic understanding, and having come to understand how several pagan faiths understand spells, charged objects, consecrated objects and energy work…they really are the same.

I know there are people out there that practice all manner of nonsense and mischief, I don’t argue that. And that there is danger…no arguement here. I found such in the Catholic and Protestant Christian communities as well. Sometimes people use spirituality in the very worst of ways.

 

[cheddarsox]

I think the primary difference between prayer and spellbinding is that a prayer is a request for some divine being to make something happen, while a spell intends to use spiritual methods to cause something to happen based on the will of the spellcaster.
Ian

I think you are correct, but truly,so much praying is just asking the Divine to do what people want, that I don’t see the difference. The way I was taught to pray growing up was to ask God to make the things I wanted happen. A very immature/self centered thing.

The best and most powerful prayer and spellwork take into account the bigger picture and not merely the will of the spellcaster, but, as you say the good of all.