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skelly
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Is this what the movement is about?
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Polak
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Ok @blackforest, you provided a link to a website that’s clearly campaigning to show that police treat black people worse than white people, but let’s go with it. I’ll use date from that too. At the top of the main page it states that more or less a quarter of those killed by police in the US in 2019 were black, despite only making up about 12% of the population, right? That stat looks correct as I have seen it elsewhere too.
The website’s main page says 1098 people were killed by the police in the US in 2019, but I’m seeing a different number for 2019 from other sources. I’m seeing the number 1004 in a lot of places, including at killedbypolice.net which the mappingpoliceviolence.org website uses as a source, so let’s assume it was 1004. I’m reading that 235 of the victims of police shooting of police shootings in 2019 were black, so the percentage seems about right. This ratio has actually been more or less about the same since 2015 (according to stats gathered by the Washington Post’s police shooting database, but I’ve seen the same on other websites too). The Washington Post by the way, is very much in the ‘Black people in America are shot at a disproportionate rate’ camp, so I hope you don’t have a problem with me using them as a source.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/
In each of the years from 2015 up until 2019, about half of those killed by police have been white and a quarter have been black.
So the argument that black people are killed by police at a disproportionate rate compared to white people, is based on the idea that there are approximately five times as many white people in the USA (about 60% according to the US census I have linked below) but yet only two times as many get shot by the police, right?
https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/IPE120218
The problem is, there’s a vital statistic missing here, and that’s how many black and white people are responsible for crimes in the USA. You see, you can’t just base these stats on the US population generally and include people who have had no run ins with the police. That makes no sense. What you do is you compare how many black people have committed crimes to how many white people have committed crimes, and then compare the statistics of how many of each race have been killed by police (i.e. did police treat the black people worse than the white ones?).
This is where we find that black people, despite making up only 1/5 of the white US population and less than 1/8 of the US population in general, are responsible for almost 27.4% (over 1/4) of the crime in the US in 2018 (more than double the black population). I’m going with stats from 2018 rather than 2019, because it’s the last year the FBI provides full stats for (2019 still has preliminary crime stats only). White people, who make up around 60% of the population, are responsible for 69% of crime. That’s still a lot, and it’s about 2.5 times more crime than black people (but not 5 times more, as it would be, if it were proportional to population size).
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018
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The website’s main page says 1098 people were killed by the police in the US in 2019, but I’m seeing a different number for 2019 from other sources. I’m seeing the number 1004 in a lot of places, including at killedbypolice.net which the mappingpoliceviolence.org website uses as a source, so let’s assume it was 1004. I’m reading that 235 of the victims of police shooting of police shootings in 2019 were black, so the percentage seems about right. This ratio has actually been more or less about the same since 2015 (according to stats gathered by the Washington Post’s police shooting database, but I’ve seen the same on other websites too). The Washington Post by the way, is very much in the ‘Black people in America are shot at a disproportionate rate’ camp, so I hope you don’t have a problem with me using them as a source.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/
In each of the years from 2015 up until 2019, about half of those killed by police have been white and a quarter have been black.
So the argument that black people are killed by police at a disproportionate rate compared to white people, is based on the idea that there are approximately five times as many white people in the USA (about 60% according to the US census I have linked below) but yet only two times as many get shot by the police, right?
https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/IPE120218
The problem is, there’s a vital statistic missing here, and that’s how many black and white people are responsible for crimes in the USA. You see, you can’t just base these stats on the US population generally and include people who have had no run ins with the police. That makes no sense. What you do is you compare how many black people have committed crimes to how many white people have committed crimes, and then compare the statistics of how many of each race have been killed by police (i.e. did police treat the black people worse than the white ones?).
This is where we find that black people, despite making up only 1/5 of the white US population and less than 1/8 of the US population in general, are responsible for almost 27.4% (over 1/4) of the crime in the US in 2018 (more than double the black population). I’m going with stats from 2018 rather than 2019, because it’s the last year the FBI provides full stats for (2019 still has preliminary crime stats only). White people, who make up around 60% of the population, are responsible for 69% of crime. That’s still a lot, and it’s about 2.5 times more crime than black people (but not 5 times more, as it would be, if it were proportional to population size).
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018
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Polak
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The police shootings stats for 2018 are as follows (according to the Washington Post database). Of the 992 people killed by police, 451 were white people (45%) and 229 were black people (23%). So it fits the ratio that seems to stay the same, about twice as many whites are killed by police as blacks.
So from that alone, you could argue that there is a slight unfairness, right? Two and a half times as many white people as black people in the US have committed crimes, but approximately twice as many white people have been shot by police. You could argue there is a disparity there, but certainly not that black people are three times more likely to be killed by police as white people, as the Mapping Police Violence website claims.
Then you also have to take into account types of crimes, because let’s face it, I don’t think many black or white people has been shot by police for fraud, gambling or vandalism. I’m not saying it’s impossible. In the most recent case with Derek Chauvin it seemed to be a drugs offence and passing a fake banknote, but I’m pretty sure if you look into it, the majority of police shootings probably took place during more serious incidents.
So we need to look at more specific violent crimes that are likely to have caused shootings and that are most likely to result in being shot by the police, such as murder (44% by whites, 53% by blacks), robbery (43.5% by whites, 54% by blacks), possessing or carrying a weapon, that often lead to shootings (54% by whites, 43% by blacks).
Did you get where I’m coming from? Even if you want to completely disregard the type of crimes committed, because let’s say you could argue that black people get shot by police even when not committing a serious crime, the ratio of police shooting black and white people is more or less proportionate to the amount of crimes committed by people from those races. About twice as many (2.5 times as many to be exact) white people have been charged with crimes in the US, and about twice as many have been shot by police. To be honest it’s actually difficult to know how many of the shootings were justified or not without going into each case specifically, and I don’t have the time to do that. It’s also difficult to prove the true motivations behind them. You could choose to believe that most of the black people shot by police were shot for minor offences, while most of the white people shot by police were shot while committing serious crimes, but that would be a wild theory, given that a lot of the most serious crimes, according to the stats, were committed by black people.
Okay almost done. There are also studies (I will try to find them for you later if you wish to see them. I’m spent too much time on this for now) that have shown, based on the stats, that the race of the police officer and the suspect being killed shows no evidence that black people are being killed anymore by white police officers than non white police officers. Same goes for white people killed by police officers. This also refutes any racial bias by police officers.
So from that alone, you could argue that there is a slight unfairness, right? Two and a half times as many white people as black people in the US have committed crimes, but approximately twice as many white people have been shot by police. You could argue there is a disparity there, but certainly not that black people are three times more likely to be killed by police as white people, as the Mapping Police Violence website claims.
Then you also have to take into account types of crimes, because let’s face it, I don’t think many black or white people has been shot by police for fraud, gambling or vandalism. I’m not saying it’s impossible. In the most recent case with Derek Chauvin it seemed to be a drugs offence and passing a fake banknote, but I’m pretty sure if you look into it, the majority of police shootings probably took place during more serious incidents.
So we need to look at more specific violent crimes that are likely to have caused shootings and that are most likely to result in being shot by the police, such as murder (44% by whites, 53% by blacks), robbery (43.5% by whites, 54% by blacks), possessing or carrying a weapon, that often lead to shootings (54% by whites, 43% by blacks).
Did you get where I’m coming from? Even if you want to completely disregard the type of crimes committed, because let’s say you could argue that black people get shot by police even when not committing a serious crime, the ratio of police shooting black and white people is more or less proportionate to the amount of crimes committed by people from those races. About twice as many (2.5 times as many to be exact) white people have been charged with crimes in the US, and about twice as many have been shot by police. To be honest it’s actually difficult to know how many of the shootings were justified or not without going into each case specifically, and I don’t have the time to do that. It’s also difficult to prove the true motivations behind them. You could choose to believe that most of the black people shot by police were shot for minor offences, while most of the white people shot by police were shot while committing serious crimes, but that would be a wild theory, given that a lot of the most serious crimes, according to the stats, were committed by black people.
Okay almost done. There are also studies (I will try to find them for you later if you wish to see them. I’m spent too much time on this for now) that have shown, based on the stats, that the race of the police officer and the suspect being killed shows no evidence that black people are being killed anymore by white police officers than non white police officers. Same goes for white people killed by police officers. This also refutes any racial bias by police officers.
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esieffe
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Wow. I never realized I could say so much with so few words. It appears that the Ultra left is fanning the flames of the movement. This is where things like the laughable notion to dissolve police departments are coming from.
Your response is way over the top.
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goout
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For all it’s good possibilities, this movement is a political one, as it subjects human life to political considerations rather than appreciate all human life for what it is: human life.esieffe:
So let me get this straight…the “ultra left” is somehow (magic?) able to mobilize protests in all 50 states and most major countries. And not just for a day, for what, 10 days now? That’s very impressive. If they have that sort of power, why are they bothering with all this protest nonsense? Why not just give orders to all the gov. around the world?
This is a variant of something you hear constantly: On the one hand, the far right (I might as well join in the name calling) is constantly telling us that the gov. is inefficient, incompetent, corrupt, etc. etc. Then in the next breath they claim that certain elements of the gov. (“deep state,” whatever) are all-powerful. Which is it? [I’ll give you a hint–it’s neither.]
It is entirely selective in who it is willing to affirm, and has the absurd position that violence brings about human rights.
That’s not very smart or honest. and it’s also hypocrisy.
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Erikaspirit16
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There seems to be an assumption here that all these protests–50 states, most developed countries world wide are somehow “organized” by some mythical left-wing magicians. That’s nonsense. Individual people are outraged, and they are coming out to show their individual feelings. I’m sure some groups like “Black Lives Matter” are involved too, but to suggest that they are somehow the ringleaders is just fantasy. I’m going to do what the right wing loves to do: Prove it.
As for “the absurd position that violence brings about human rights,” I think, since this is not long after D-Day, that your statement is itself absurd. Violence can, and does, bring about human rights. Shall we start listing: French Revolution, American Revolution, etc. These were far from peaceful protests–these were vicious wars.
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Erikaspirit16
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I don’t understand—many posters here seem to believe in a mythical power (Black Lives Matter, ultra leftists, Marxists, etc. etc.) are behind all these protests, not just in the US but around the world. I’m just pointing out you can’t argue both ways simultaneously–that on the one hand they’re incompetent, etc. and on the other hand they have universal powers. How is that “over the top”? Isn’t the assumption that all of these protests are somehow organized by a central mysterious power “over the top”?
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sealabeag
Guest
Black Lives Matter is very, very influential in all these protests, but where they are particularly involved is in the demands that are being made. The majority of these, for example defunding of police come from BLM, which are a communist-anarchist movement.
Of course there are a multitude of people involved with myriad beliefs and affiliations or none.
Of course there are a multitude of people involved with myriad beliefs and affiliations or none.
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Erikaspirit16
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Yes, you are seeing different numbers. I explained all that in an earlier post. Because the federal gov. doesn’t keep track, it’s left to private groups to keep track, and they naturally have different rules. The Wash. Post only counts deaths caused by police who are on duty and use guns. It doesn’t count if an off-duty policeman shoots someone, or if, as in the case of Floyd, the police kill someone on duty without shooting them. Thus fewer deaths counted than other data bases using different rules. It’s not a conspiracy, the rules are clearly stated. Read them.
The rest of your argument is quite logical, but you don’t carry it far enough. To carry it to its logical conclusion you would have to show that the police are arresting blacks and whites equally based on the crime–in other words, are they devoting more time and effort to tracking down a black robber than a white robber? I don’t know. You are assuming that because, for example, if 50% of robbery arrests are blacks that they actually committed 50% of the robberies. That may or may not be true. Maybe they only committed 25% of the robberies, but the police made a bigger effort to catch them. And of course another issue is “arrests.” Arrests are not convictions.
Beyond that there are two more huge issues you ignore: Dwight goes to jail for three years for knocking over a liquor store for $300. Mr. Anderson embezzles millions and gets off scot free. Fair? Not to me. I believe that during the financial crisis of 2008 only one (1) banker went to jail. Trillions were lost, mainly due to the greed of the banks. Sound fair to you? Not to me.
And the last thing of course is that, as all Americans, your world ends at the US border. It doesn’t. There is a big wide world out there. Why does Japan have no police deaths at all? Why does the UK have less than a handful (literally). Why does Canada have 3x (per capita) fewer police deaths? Etc. This should be the #1 thing to examine. And no one has said a peep about other countries. They should.
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RobertAdams
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I also think people overstate the influence of the “fringes” in the US. Curious if anyone here has actually met an antifa protester? They are about as likely to be convincing regular people to do stuff as a larouche democrat.
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Polak
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I never said it was a conspiracy. I thought it odd that the Mapping Police Violence website stated 1098 deaths for 2019, but also seems to work with or at least collaborate in some way with the Killed By Police website (perhaps it’s a sister site?), which has 1004 deaths.
I didn’t see it.
I’m aware of all that. That’s why I pointed out later that it’s difficult to get a clear and definite answer on ‘whether the police force is racist’. We can only get so much information from these stats, but that’s the stats we have to work with. We don’t know how much time the police devoted to getting different suspects or ‘how much of an effort’ they made. The FBI, from what I could find, only provided stats for different crimes and arrests by race.
I focused on trying to figure out if there was any truth to the narrative I’m often hearing about police gunning down more blacks than whites because they are racist. The bankers example you give doesn’t have much to do with shootings (neither Dwight or Mr Anderson got shot in your example) and I don’t think that’s really a racial thing, but more an ‘elites can get away with anything’ issue. I doubt it would have made any difference if Dwight was black or white in your scenario, he still wouldn’t have got away with it like Mr Anderson did.
Guns are banned in Japan and the UK. That might have something to do with it. The people the police deal with almost never have one on them. There’s no ‘gun culture’ in those countries. As for Canada, I believe it is still legal to own a gun there but I think the laws are much stricter? I’m not too familiar with their laws to be honest. They also have quite a tiny population in relation to the size of their land.
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Paddy1989
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Can you explain to us why you’re so angry? What’s your dog in the fight? Is BLM directly harming your nuclear family somehow
[/quote]
What? No. Black people kill more 2 times more white people in interracial homicide because of the level of crime in these communities which means that although only 12% of the population per capita the crime is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than other communities which is why homicide is the biggest cause of preventable deaths among young black people.
Yes i know black communities don’t represent the majority of crime as a whole however PER CAPITA they do by a fair margin. Are you able to see the bigger picture now or stuck in that racist narrative for the cause of all suffering.
This is all really simple. If one looked at the world through you and a few others posters eyes then racism would be EVERYWHERE institutionally, it would be against whites at times, Asians, blacks etc all because you see a disproportion in the numbers yet have no idea or even care for that matter of the biggest picture that makes sense of them.
So to make the point what i’m saying even clearer yet again, Black people are getting killed by police 2.5 times the number of white people based on the fact they are significantly likely per capita to be involved in crime and are responsible for over 25% of crime even though they only make up 13% of the population. I hope this is all making sense now.
Also i’m not angry, on the contrary i thought this thread was a good way to show people the truth and so others don’t fall into this leftist trap. I think this thread was created just in time, the hysteria created in social media means we even have genuine Catholics falling for this and it only benefits who seek to use Division for their own Marxist ends.
Don’t buy into it. Stop looking at the world through the prism of race, gender and sexual preference and you’ll be alot more at peace. These leftists are full of self loathing and they want everyone else to be aswell. They want the west to hate itself, to purge itself of it’s western sins by tearing down everything that represents western civilization.
Better yet, he could contact our bishops and clergy with the same missive. More Catholic bishops, laity join in ‘Black Lives Matter’ protests | America Magazine
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What? No. Black people kill more 2 times more white people in interracial homicide because of the level of crime in these communities which means that although only 12% of the population per capita the crime is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than other communities which is why homicide is the biggest cause of preventable deaths among young black people.
Yes i know black communities don’t represent the majority of crime as a whole however PER CAPITA they do by a fair margin. Are you able to see the bigger picture now or stuck in that racist narrative for the cause of all suffering.
This is all really simple. If one looked at the world through you and a few others posters eyes then racism would be EVERYWHERE institutionally, it would be against whites at times, Asians, blacks etc all because you see a disproportion in the numbers yet have no idea or even care for that matter of the biggest picture that makes sense of them.
So to make the point what i’m saying even clearer yet again, Black people are getting killed by police 2.5 times the number of white people based on the fact they are significantly likely per capita to be involved in crime and are responsible for over 25% of crime even though they only make up 13% of the population. I hope this is all making sense now.
Also i’m not angry, on the contrary i thought this thread was a good way to show people the truth and so others don’t fall into this leftist trap. I think this thread was created just in time, the hysteria created in social media means we even have genuine Catholics falling for this and it only benefits who seek to use Division for their own Marxist ends.
Don’t buy into it. Stop looking at the world through the prism of race, gender and sexual preference and you’ll be alot more at peace. These leftists are full of self loathing and they want everyone else to be aswell. They want the west to hate itself, to purge itself of it’s western sins by tearing down everything that represents western civilization.
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Freddy
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I think thst you have been able to sum your views up much better than I could hope to do. I can’t add anything to that. It’s there for all reasonable people to see.
Signing off…
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Paddy1989
Guest
“ The refusal to take sides on great moral issues is itself a decision. It is a silent acquiescence to evil. The Tragedy of our time is that those who still believe in honesty lack fire and conviction, while those who believe in dishonesty are full of passionate conviction.” Bishop Fulton SheenPaddy1989:
I think thst you have been able to sum your views up much better than I could hope to do. I can’t add anything to that. It’s there for all reasonable people to see.
Signing off…
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Welshrabbit
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You get a like for the Lyndon LaRouche reference…
blackforest
Well-known member
OK, I already rebutted this point.
Not really. The black men in question were never formally charged with crimes. They were accused of them and manhandled in lethal ways.
This is the ad hominem fallacy and has no place on CAF. I’ll be muting now.
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Paddy1989
Guest
If you don’t understand what a ad hominem is then don’t invoke it. Pointing out the leftist ideological self loating is no more an Ad Homineum than claiming Catholicism want everyone to be ultimately happy and know True love by following Christ and his teachings, it’s rationally valid, it’s part and parcel with how identity politics is used by the left. Understand the difference as you haven’t been able to with the stats so far.Paddy1989:
OK, I already rebutted this point.
Not really. The black men in question were never formally charged with crimes. They were accused of them and manhandled in lethal ways.
This is the ad hominem fallacy and has no place on CAF. I’ll be muting now.
Also you never rebutted this point, in fact other posters has called you out on it to discuss it aswell.
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Paddy1989
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Paddy1989
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I wonder is this a message to all us Catholics. The way BLM has been able to protest and get away with it with lock-down rules still in place with Church’s and businesses closed or limited.
What if we Catholics in large numbers did the same and just ignored the lock-down rules to get back to the sacraments, the most important aspects of our lives.
What if instead of Catholic lay people and clergy turning up to these protests and calling for others to before going back home to locked/limited businesses and Church’s they carried that same passion and energy into the faith???
What does it say about us Catholics who do nothing while there is CLEAR double standards by those in the left today who tell us our faith doesn’t matter??? Have we become so weak in faith that we don’t care? Do trendy social issues and protests matter more than God???
What if we Catholics in large numbers did the same and just ignored the lock-down rules to get back to the sacraments, the most important aspects of our lives.
What if instead of Catholic lay people and clergy turning up to these protests and calling for others to before going back home to locked/limited businesses and Church’s they carried that same passion and energy into the faith???
What does it say about us Catholics who do nothing while there is CLEAR double standards by those in the left today who tell us our faith doesn’t matter??? Have we become so weak in faith that we don’t care? Do trendy social issues and protests matter more than God???
“The refusal to take sides on great moral issues is itself a decision. It is a silent acquiescence to evil. The Tragedy of our time is that those who still believe in honesty lack fire and conviction, while those who believe in dishonesty are full of passionate conviction.”
― Fulton J. Sheen
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Erikaspirit16
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Aha! The light dawns. You nailed it! Ever hear the expression, “If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail”? The police all have guns. Gee, do you think they might ever misuse them? And of course another factor is the ex-military people who go into the police. As military they are trained to (pick a word you like: kill, neutralize, destroy, demolish…) the “enemy.” When they get into the police, they keep that mindset, except now the “enemy” is the general public–or at least that part of it they THINK are “criminals.” That’s a problem. How many police are ex-military? Again, no one knows, because no one wants to know. They should. There have been estimates though–one estimate puts it at about ⅓ of all police. USA Today estimates 20%. And I’m sure it varies by city, state, etc. But so what? Once again, no one is keeping track. See a USA Today story Veteran cops bring war home that says “considerable anecdotal evidence suggesting veterans are more likely to get physical, and some police executives agree.” In a study of the Dallas Police Dept. Dallas Cops With Military Experience More Likely to Shoot, Study Says | The Marshall Project
researchers found that “Officers who were deployed [i.e. veterans who had been in a war zone] were 2.9 times more likely to have fired their weapons while on duty. Those who were not deployed [but still ex-military] were 1.94 times more likely to be involved in a shooting.” Anyone see a problem here?
But of course that’s only part of the issue. You can easily look up “police shootings” by country and see for yourself. Yes, certainly part of the answer is that guns are everywhere in the US. But other countries also have (or had) guns, and they STILL don’t have the number (per capita!) of police shootings the US does. Something’s out of whack.
And yes, I agree with your “white collar crime” argument. But my point is that if you are black, and you see a lot of people around you go to jail for what are relatively trivial offenses (mass incarceration, right?), and then you look at those nice white folks robbing people blind–including, remember all those good black folks who lost their homes to mortgage scams–I think you might be a tad upset. Enraged, even.
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