What dear friend, do you find strange about Catholicism?

[blanchardman]

Those who are in Christ are alive forevermore! They may pass from this life, but they are eternally present with Him.

Nothing can separate them from the love of God, including death.

29But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 32‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?** He is not God of the dead, but of the living.** Matt. 22.

(long sigh) In my post “dead” was what you replied to?

 

[Wannano]

Fran I’m still not sure what YOU are talking about; I however am talking about OBEDIENCE and humility to what thee Church entrusted with ALL of the keys to heaven Mt 26::18-19.

Here for your possible edification is a site you really need to pull up and read:thumbsup:

Summary of process of salvation in Roman Catholicism

by Matt Slick: carm.org/catholic-salvation-summary

Salvation in Roman Catholicism is a process. To begin, God grants actual grace to a person which enables him to believe in Christ (CCC 2000) and also believe in the truth of the Catholic Church (CCC 1814). After belief, the person must be baptized, which is necessary for salvation (CCC 1257). This baptism erases original sin (CCC 405), unites the person with Christ (CCC 977), infuses grace into the person (CCC 1999), and grants justification (CCC 1992, 2020). After baptism, he is saved. But, to maintain his salvation, it is necessary for him to perform good works (CCC 2010, 2068, 2080) and participate in the sacraments (CCC 1129) which provide grace that is “proper to each sacrament” (CCC 1129, 2003). This is necessary in order to maintain infused grace (CCC 987, 1468). However, grace can be lessened by venial sins or completely lost by mortal sins. Venial sins (CCC 1862) remove part of the infused grace but not the saving grace known as sanctifying grace (CCC 1863). To remedy the problem of venial sins, the Catholic is to take the Eucharist which the Church teaches forgives venial sins (CCC 1416). He must also perform various penance which must be done in concert with perfect contrition (CCC 1452). But there is a problem. Sins require punishment. Even though sins are absolved by a priest (CCC 1463, 1495), the punishment due to a person because of his sin can remain. To deal with that remaining punishment, indulgences are administered to deal with the punishment due to the guilt of the sins already forgiven (CCC 1471, 1498). These indulgences draw upon the “good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary” (CCC 1477) and “of Christ and the saints” so as to obtain “the remission of the temporal punishment due for their sins” (CCC 1478). Furthermore, the indulgences can be applied to themselves or the dead (CCC 1471) who are in purgatory (CCC 1498). Now, in case the Catholic has committed a mortal sin, then all his infused grace is lost. To regain this grace, he must partake of special penance (CCC 980) since it helps restore grace that was lost (CCC 1468, 1496). To conclude, the Roman Catholic must have faith, participate in the sacraments, take the Eucharist, keep the commandments, perform penance, and do indulgences in order to attain, maintain, and regain his salvation as well as reduce the punishment due to him for the sins of which he has already forgiven." End Quote

The article is much longer and more detailed.

God Bless you,
Patrick

Thank you Patrick for condensing in understandable language what your Church believes and how they put it into practice. If no other Catholics dispute what you have given here I am going to take it as the official summary of the process of salvation within the Catholic framework. Maybe I am the only one that feels this way but what you have given here is much more beneficial to my understanding than to reply with many scriptures and seemingly
(I am not meaning to be offensive) eager accusations of how heretical the separated brethren are in their understanding.

One point of clarification though, I notice you begin the summary of the process of salvation with the person being an adult, first obtaining a personal belief and then having baptism. Could you for my benefit also explain how the beginning process would work for an infant receiving baptism before having the ability to reason a belief?

I appreciate that you have shared this with us that are unfamiliar with your basic framework.

 

[Peter_J]

If no other Catholics dispute what you have given here I am going to take it as the official summary of the process of salvation within the Catholic framework.

Admittedly I haven’t read what came before, but I’m wondering if you have really thought through this ^^ principle. The internet is a big place, and there must be millions of things posted on it that have not been “disputed” … does that mean that those things are all correct?

 

[Wannano]

Admittedly I haven’t read what came before, but I’m wondering if you have really thought through this ^^ principle. The internet is a big place, and there must be millions of things posted on it that have not been “disputed” … does that mean that those things are all correct?

No Peter that is not what I meant… I am sure that there is like you say lots of undisputed info available and I have looked at some and admit it is a daunting task to absorb it all. No, I never gave much thought to the principle of what I said, I just liked having the basics wrapped up in a nutshell and felt that Catholic persons would respond to it either in agreement or disagreement.

Maybe I should have given it more thought!

 

[Peter_J]

No Peter that is not what I meant… I am sure that there is like you say lots of undisputed info available and I have looked at some and admit it is a daunting task to absorb it all. No, I never gave much thought to the principle of what I said, I just liked having the basics wrapped up in a nutshell and felt that Catholic persons would respond to it either in agreement or disagreement.

Maybe I should have given it more thought!

At the risk of being way too predictable, there’s always the CCC.

(Confession: I myself don’t find the CCC as much fun as participating on a discussion forum. )

 

[PJM]

=fbl9;13496820]Prayer to the saints and Blessed Virgin are mandated but private devotion is optional.
We just can`t skip the lines in the penititional (sic) rite.

Where are they mandated?

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[Tommy999]

My dear friends in Christ;

What if anything do you find stange anout the Catholic Church/ Catholic Faith?

God Bless you,

Patrick

Hi Patrick,
I haven’t been on CAF for awhile and haven’t read through all the pages of replies here, but to answer your question from my perspective I would say that strangeness is in the eye of the beholder. it is a matter of what a person is used to or brought up in that helps determine what is normal or strange, in my view.

For me, having been born and raised in the Presbyterian faith tradition (God’s Frozen People, as some would say), I was used to some rituals, responsive readings, pastors in vestments, etc). So when I visited a Catholic mass I did not find those things strange at all.

However, to those Protestants who were raised in a more evangelical or non-denomination setting, perhaps that would’ve seemed strange to them because there typically aren’t responsive readings in those churches, and pastors wear normal business casual clothing in many places instead of priestly garb.

What I found strange at the mass, mainly because I wasn’t used to it, was the priest spreading incense around the altar, all the kneeling, genuflecting, and that sort of thing that takes place at a Catholic mass, i.e “Catholic Gymnastics”.

Although nobody spoke in Latin at the mass I attended, if they had done that, I probably would’ve been impressed but thought it was strange at the same time because I wouldn’t have understood it. It’s only strange to me if I don’t understand it.

It’s not that the mass was truly strange, but it was strange *to me *because I wasn’t used to it. I could see a Catholic coming to one of my worship services and finding it strange, too, for what it has and for what it doesn’t have. I could also see somebody who’s never ever been to a church in his/her life think that all church services are strange, regardless of the faith tradition.

The more I listen to radio shows like Catholic Answers Live and other informational programs, Catholicism becomes less strange and formidable to me. I hope that helps answer the question from my perspective, anyway. May the Lord bless all that read this and grant you His peace.

 

[spedteacherita]

It wasn’t just being in the church that gave me the answer, but the Holy Spirit. Ask Him to guide you.

Hi, Bonnie,

I had the same feelings when I first went to an LCMS church. When I was trying to sort out what the Lord wanted me to do in my life I threw out a fleece and asked for a sign as I sat in the Chapel of the Lutheran college I was thinking of attending. The sign was immediately answered and within 3 months everything was settled (monetarily, etc.) for me to begin my studies there. I believe that was the Holy Spirit guiding me.

I continually seek guidance from God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and in my spiritual walk here on Earth. I look forward with great anticipation for Jesus’ return!

God bless you!

Rita

 

[spedteacherita]

Where are they mandated?

God Bless you,
Patrick

I don’t know about the saints but I do know from what I’ve read and seen written here on CA that belief in Mary’s immaculate conception and assumption into heaven has been called a dogma, which, as I understand is something that can not be changed.

Here is a link to the CNA that I found info about the dogma:

catholicnewsagency.com/resources/mary/general-information/the-four-marian-dogmas/

Am I misunderstanding this?

God’s blessings

Rita

 

[spedteacherita]

At the risk of being way too predictable, there’s always the CCC.

(Confession: I myself don’t find the CCC as much fun as participating on a discussion forum. )

I found a copy of the CCC at a local thrift store…it was too much for me! I agree with you about it’s more fun in our forums here.

God bless!!

Rita

 

[benhur]

Hi benhur. Surely you haven’t forgotten “Whose sins you forgive …” ?

Hi Pete,

No i have not.

Can you be forgiven without receiving the gospel or rejecting it ?

Blessings

 

[guanophore]

Fran I’m still not sure what YOU are talking about; I however am talking about OBEDIENCE and humility to what thee Church entrusted with ALL of the keys to heaven Mt 26::18-19.

Here for your possible edification is a site you really need to pull up and read:thumbsup:

Summary of process of salvation in Roman Catholicism

It is against the rules here to link to antiCatholic sites. In addition, it is not a good idea to post a summary like this with misinformation in it. I recommend you write your own, PJM. Save it to a text file so you can use it whenever you need it.

 

[guanophore]

 Summary of process of salvation in Roman Catholicism

by Matt Slick:
Matt Slick;13498102:

Salvation in Roman Catholicism is a process.

It is not a good idea to accept the claim that Catholicism is “Roman”. The Latin Rite is the largest here in the West, but there are 22 Rites in Communion with the Successor of Peter.

To begin, God grants actual grace to a person which enables him to believe in Christ (CCC 2000) and also believe in the truth of the Catholic Church (CCC 1814).

I think he is talking about prevenient grace. God desires all people to be saved, and come to the knowlege of the Truth. He gives sufficient grace to all, drawing everyone to HImself.

After belief, the person must be baptized, which is necessary for salvation (CCC 1257). This baptism erases original sin (CCC 405),

A person may be baptized prior to coming to belief, as is the case with babies, ,who are baptized with the faith of their parents and godparents. Baptism does not “erase original sin”. It washes away the stain of the sin, yet concupiscense remains.

After baptism, he is saved.

Some people are not able to “do good works”, such as disabled and very ill people. Works are necessary for those that God has prepared beforehand that they should walk in them.

To remedy the problem of venial sins, the Catholic is to take the Eucharist which the Church teaches forgives venial sins (CCC 1416).

I am not sure what is meant here by “problem of venial sins”, but there is a constant battle within us between the old man and the new man. Sin crouches at the door,a nd we must master it.

We never “take the Eucharist”. This is a theologically poor expression. We RECEIVE Eucharist. Jesus forgives our sins, through a variety of graces, including Eucharist. Matt Slick makes Eucharist sound like some sort of magic wand to “remedy the problem of venial sins”.

He must also perform various penance which must be done in concert with perfect contrition (CCC 1452).

This is not true either. Some may be given penance as part of confession/absolution, and all the faithful may elect penitential activities such as fasting and giving alms. Matt presents it this way to make it sound like we are earning our forgiveness by performing actions with “perfect contrition”. On the contrary, since it is unlikely that human beings can have perfect contrition, we have the Sacrament. We all have a tendency to be attached to our sins.

But there is a problem. Sins require punishment. Even though sins are absolved by a priest (CCC 1463, 1495), the punishment due to a person because of his sin can remain.

This is also a misrepresentation of the faith. The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus paid the eternal price of our sins. Matt presents this to make it look like Catholics don’t believe this. Nothing “remains” of the sin once a person is absolved. The penitent is fully and finally forgiven of the sinse they confess. What may remain are the temporal consequences of the sin. For example, a Catholic girl may have premarital sex and become pregnant. She may confess her sin, and be absolved, but there is still the pregnancy. Or, a person may commit a robbery, confess, but making restitution still remains.

To deal with that remaining punishment, indulgences are administered to deal with the punishment due to the guilt of the sins already forgiven (CCC 1471, 1498).

This is also a misleading statement. Not all the consequences of sins are dealt with through indulgences. Any “punishment” is temporal, not eternal, a distinction that Matt does not make. Matt uses the phrase “guilt of the sins already forgiven” to make it appoear that Catholics don’t really believe we are forgiven our sins in confession, and still have to work off the guilt. This is not the case.

We are obligated to make reparations/restitution as much as possible, and to conduct ourselves in a manner that is worthy of the grace we have received.

These indulgences draw upon the “good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary” (CCC 1477) and “of Christ and the saints” so as to obtain “the remission of the temporal punishment due for their sins” (CCC 1478).

This statement is also misleading (only partially true). Certainly the prayers of the Theotokos are powerful, and those of the saints, but all grace and remission of sins/punishment comes from Christ. He does include the word temporal here, but I am not sure he understands what it means.

There are many ways to receive an indulgence, prayer and reading scripture the most common.

Furthermore, the indulgences can be applied to themselves or the dead (CCC 1471) who are in purgatory (CCC 1498).

this statement is misleading as well, since those who have gone on before us in Christ at not dead, but live forever. Furthermore, we don’t know who is in purgatory, and who is not. We can be certain that those who have rejected the grace of God are not in purgatory, so the inference that all the “dead…are in purgatory” is erroneous.

 

[guanophore]

Now, in case the Catholic has committed a mortal sin, then all his infused grace is lost. To regain this grace, he must partake of special penance (CCC 980) since it helps restore grace that was lost (CCC 1468, 1496).

Matt is just making fun of Catholic theology here. No amount of sin can cause someone to be unbaptized, unsealed, or unadopted into the family of God.

Furthermore, “special penance” is not required to regain our relationship with Jesus and His Church. We go to confession and receive absolution. We cannot be restored to a state of grace without repentance.

The article is much longer and more detailed.

God Bless you,
Patrick

I strongly recommend that you avoid reading anything from this individual, and certainly everyone should avoid using his writings to defend the Catholic faith. He has a very hostile and mocking attitude toward Catholicism.

 

[Peter_J]

No i have not.

Fair enough, but how does that fit with:

The text does not say the priest alone absolves, if at all. The Lord does that .The priest and “one another” pray for healing (spiritual and physical).

 

[guanophore]

(long sigh) In my post “dead” was what you replied to?

I thought this would be simple to fix. Do you really believe that those Jesus says are “alive forevermore” are dead?

It seemed to me that you got a lot of very relevant replies. I would be happy to carry on if you like.

 

[Wannano]

At the risk of being way too predictable, there’s always the CCC.

(Confession: I myself don’t find the CCC as much fun as participating on a discussion forum. )

In the Matt Slick presentation PJM seemed to have condensed the CCC into simple language. I assumed that it was honorable and truthful since PJM is an informed and practicing Catholic who seems to have much authoratavie (name removed by moderator)ut into these threads.

I will simply state that I felt someone finally in a nutshell put out information that explains the Catholic understanding. To be perfectly honest it gave me the feeling that I did not need to pursue any more understanding if what I read is in fact truth because I saw error in much of what was presented.

Now Guanaphore has responded and pointed out several misreprestations. THANK YOU Guanophore.

I am also startled to find out that Matt Slick is not a Catholic. Why PJM would present his article as a truthful condensation of the CCC blows my mind.

Hopefully someone will be able to show me how I have totally misunderstood this whole thing.

 

[randomuser]

Protestants have used Constantine to level an inexorable amount of calumny and detraction against the Catholic Church. Some of them even say that he was the one who founded the Catholic Church. :bigyikes:

Yeah, and they continue to believe it because Catholics never talk about (therefore, by Protestant rationale, it must be true.) Rinse. Repeat.

 

[punisherthunder]

I find it strange that the Church is a means of salvation (the only means if you are a subscriber of Nulla Salus), yet confessionals are always empty…

 

[PJM]

=Wannano;13498609]Thank you Patrick for condensing in understandable language what your Church believes and how they put it into practice. If no other Catholics dispute what you have given here I am going to take it as the official summary of the process of salvation within the Catholic framework. Maybe I am the only one that feels this way but what you have given here is much more beneficial to my understanding than to reply with many scriptures and seemingly
(I am not meaning to be offensive) eager accusations of how heretical the separated brethren are in their understanding.

One point of clarification though, I notice you begin the summary of the process of salvation with the person being an adult, first obtaining a personal belief and then having baptism. Could you for my benefit also explain how the beginning process would work for an infant receiving baptism before having the ability to reason a belief?

I appreciate that you have shared this with us that are unfamiliar with your basic framework.

Thanks for the kind words:thumbsup:

It’s a bit different for infants only in so far as what is GIFTED to then as infants; [being born into the path of salvation] on their behalf can, and very sadly is once the infant has attained adulthood. It seems that the pressures of later be voided by peers who’s influence can often override Baptism and its graces; and even Confirmation and the personal covenant it establishes between the Confirmed and God., and its graces.

I post also on another public forum and the numbers on apostate Catholics is appalling. Many young adults are going so far as to deny the existence of God; a position that is simply foolish; but does permit them to live their lives without circumspection in this 'You don’t judge me; and I won’t judge you" society [New Age] that we live in. Much prayer is needed for our kids and extended families.

Salvation’s hopes are dependent of freewill acceptance of God’s truths; which only the Catholic Church can share in its fullness. That my friend in not bragging; but the biblical and moral truth. So what is instilled after Baptism becomes of paramount importance. Many of the young people who choose to leave Christ One True Church, do so despite often many years of attending Catholic Schools yet, come away with very little or even no real understanding of what we belief and why and HOW we are able to belief it. This is large part is due to the decimation .of Religious Life teachers; who number only about a third of what they were when I attended Catholic Schools.

The Basic process [and Salvation is ALWAYS a process] for salvation begins with Sacramental Baptism, and then proceeds through the Sacraments instituted by Jesus to felicitate one’s Spiritual growth.

What Begins with Sacramental Baptism is made more sure by the Sacraments of Confession; Holy Communion; & Confirmation. So the grace necessary for remaining on God’s path for salvation is offered. BUT adulthood can negate all of that.

I hope and pray this answers your question? If not, please let me know.

God Bless you,

Patrick

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