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What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?
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Servant19
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Hi Vincent, please read my post above
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Servant19
Guest
That’s because I can read English Martin
No no no lets not mention any B words ok!!Here we go again.
MJ
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MartinJordan
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That’s not what I meant. But I digress.That’s because I can read English Martin
Great.No no no lets not mention any B words ok!!
MJ
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TEPO
Guest
According to catholic teachings, there were many Jewish souls waiting for Jesus to redeem them. A faithful Jew who followed Jewish laws carefully would have been redeemed, and would be in heaven right now. So Moses was true in what he said.
In this age though, there is no given number as to how many times we can sin and still avoid going to the “pit”. Jesus established the Sacraments through His Church to where all sins can be forgiven - no matter how severe or how many times we sin.
Jesus is very merciful.
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vincent10395
Guest
very interesting. Well I hope you don’t mind us going back to Isaiah 53
5 But he was pierced for our** transgressions**,
he was crushed for our** iniquities**;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
Why is there still transgression, and iniquity since Moses forgave ALL of sin?
Well this verse can’t be referring to Moses because Moses wasn’t pierced.
Just wondering.
meltzerboy
New member
There is redemption in Judaism in a collective and physical sense: that is, the redemption of the Jewish people and the non-Jewish people during the Messianic age. The means toward individual spiritual redemption, however, is already contained in the Torah through prayer and making amends to people whom we have wronged. Torah practice is not to be discontinued when the Messiah comes, but instead renewed. Jews do not believe any human beings are lost souls at birth who need a Savior for salvation; rather, we are very much capable of atoning for our individual sins toward G-d and His creation, and trust in G-d for forgiveness. The goal, according to Judaism, is to be at one with the will of G-d, while relying on His mercy intertwined with His justice.Thankyou dear friends, but Jews do not believe in original sin.
So there is nothing to be redeemed from…
meltzerboy
New member
Moses did not forgive any sin. In fact, G-d rejected Moses’ willingness to sacrifice himself for the benefit of the Jewish people. It is the Torah that Moses wrote through the inspiration provided by G-d that contains the instructional message on how sin can be forgiven.
You should realize that the verses you quote are among the most controversial, and more ink has been spilled on their interpretation by both Jewish and Christian scholars, than virtually any other in the Bible. The word “pierced” itself is controversial regarding its translation from the Hebrew text, and whether the passage is referring to the Messiah or to Israel has been a bone of contention for generations.
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PennyinCanada
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It’s so huge.
We can walk in grace, with the Holy Spirit inside of us. My friendship with God is restored, my debt of sin, paid.
My saints have laid hands and prayed, and miracles happened. Padre Pio prayed for a worker who came to Mass every morning before he went to work on the hospital construction. P. Pio said to him, “I’ll pray for you!!” for 3 mornings. Then the accident happened, and he was in an explosion were his face took a hit, and his eye was missing, gone. When they took off the bandages later on, he had a new eyeball. The man said the P. Pio came to his room and blessed him as always. The doctors confirm indeed his eye was gone. What power through the mercy of Christ is available to us, if only we understood this. There are too many stories to tell.
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Skye_Ariel
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His blood, dying for our sins. No one could do that but Him. Period.
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vincent10395
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ClearWater
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That’s a really good question!
Yes, Jesus gave us salvation. Original, and other sin, was so grave that the level of atonement and sacrifice necessary to free mankind could only be achieved through divinity, itself.
Further, before Jesus, God spoke indirectly…through prophets…Moses, and others. However, with Jesus**, EVERYTHING** changed! New wine…new wine skins! Through Jesus, God spoke to us, directly!
When the disciples asked to see the Father, Jesus answered that when they saw him, they saw the Father, since they were one.
As we grew, we no longer used, “An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” and were told to “turn the other cheek”, forgive. We moved away from the letter of the law and more towards the spirit of the law.
Also, the commandments were expanded, explained, and summarized in …love God above all things and your neighbor as yourself.
God offered himself as the atonement for mankind’s sins.
Jesus was the fulfilment of the prophecies! With Moses, we had the Old Covenant. With Christ, we had the New Covenant…the new alliance…everlasting. Moses was with the Old Testament. Christ bought the New Testament.
With Moses, we had bread from heaven in the form of Manna. Christ was our bread from heaven to feed us. Christ was the “New Adam”.
Christ overcame death through his cross and resurrection, something which Moses didn’t do. However, just as Moses raised the snakes on the pole in the desert to heal his people, Christ was raised for our healing…and salvation.
With Moses, we had the passover feast with a lamb, unleavened bread, and blood. With Christ, even at the same time as the Passover, was going to be our new sacrifice. He was the “Lamb of God”, the “Bread of Life”. His blood was our cup of salvation.
Yes, Jesus gave us salvation. Original, and other sin, was so grave that the level of atonement and sacrifice necessary to free mankind could only be achieved through divinity, itself.
Further, before Jesus, God spoke indirectly…through prophets…Moses, and others. However, with Jesus**, EVERYTHING** changed! New wine…new wine skins! Through Jesus, God spoke to us, directly!
When the disciples asked to see the Father, Jesus answered that when they saw him, they saw the Father, since they were one.
As we grew, we no longer used, “An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” and were told to “turn the other cheek”, forgive. We moved away from the letter of the law and more towards the spirit of the law.
Also, the commandments were expanded, explained, and summarized in …love God above all things and your neighbor as yourself.
God offered himself as the atonement for mankind’s sins.
Jesus was the fulfilment of the prophecies! With Moses, we had the Old Covenant. With Christ, we had the New Covenant…the new alliance…everlasting. Moses was with the Old Testament. Christ bought the New Testament.
With Moses, we had bread from heaven in the form of Manna. Christ was our bread from heaven to feed us. Christ was the “New Adam”.
Christ overcame death through his cross and resurrection, something which Moses didn’t do. However, just as Moses raised the snakes on the pole in the desert to heal his people, Christ was raised for our healing…and salvation.
With Moses, we had the passover feast with a lamb, unleavened bread, and blood. With Christ, even at the same time as the Passover, was going to be our new sacrifice. He was the “Lamb of God”, the “Bread of Life”. His blood was our cup of salvation.
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Evania
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Linusthe2nd
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Perhaps not in those terms but they knew they needed salvation and that a Messiah was promised. So, though it may not have bee defined as " Original Sin, " they knew that Adam and Eve sinned and that all their children were sinners and needed redemption.Thankyou dear friends, but Jews do not believe in original sin.
So there is nothing to be redeemed from…
Perhaps a knowledgeable Israelite will post and give us a definitive answer.
Linus2nd
meltzerboy
New member
Judaism has always believed that we are born with a clean slate and no original sin. However, I once read of a certain group of Jews (I can’t recall whom exactly but not the Karaites) who toyed with the idea of original sin, but certainly they are far out of the mainstream. As I stated in my previous post, the means of redemption is prayer toward G-d and forgiveness from one’s fellow man, which hinges on the intention and the actualization of a change in behavior. The purpose of the Messiah was never meant to be salvation in the Christian sense.
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Servant19
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Servant19
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Thankyou meltzerboy,
It seems you are correct here.
According to the Mishnah:
“…sins are expiated (1) by sacrifice, (2) by repentance at death or on Yom Kippur, (3) in the case of the lighter transgressions of the positive or negative precepts, by repentance at any time…”
So what purpose did Jesus serve?
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ianmarie91
Guest
“What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?”
That is the original question.
I have a different angle here.
Not to first of all try to prove that Jesus was a holy prophet and the messiah but that there was in fact MORE to bring after the revelations of God through Moses.
Here is my simple scriptural support.
“Then the LORD replied… I will raise up for them a prophet like you (Moses)… I will put my words in the mouth of the prophet… ANYONE who does not heed the words that the prophet shall speak in my name, I MYSELF will hold accountable.”
If God completed revelation through Moses alone, then why this prophet?
And If indeed we agree there is more to be done and “brought” after Moses… then who is this prophet, if not Jesus of Nazareth?
That is the original question.
I have a different angle here.
Not to first of all try to prove that Jesus was a holy prophet and the messiah but that there was in fact MORE to bring after the revelations of God through Moses.
Here is my simple scriptural support.
“Then the LORD replied… I will raise up for them a prophet like you (Moses)… I will put my words in the mouth of the prophet… ANYONE who does not heed the words that the prophet shall speak in my name, I MYSELF will hold accountable.”
If God completed revelation through Moses alone, then why this prophet?
And If indeed we agree there is more to be done and “brought” after Moses… then who is this prophet, if not Jesus of Nazareth?
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Servant19
Guest
Excellent Ian!!
If indeed Jesus is this Prophet (was Jesus a Prophet then? I digress) then what did He bring that Moses didn’t?
How was Moses’ revelation incomplete, and how is Jesus’ revelation complete?
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ianmarie91
Guest
Well if we can agree that Jesus was the prophet foretold by God than I think it becomes quite obvious what he brought as he would be taken on sacred authority.
So let’s walk it through…
If Jesus was not a prophet as you said “I disagree”
Then Who was he?
The Jews at the time struggled with the same question
“Some say you are the prophet Elijah…”
" He has a demon…"
Or As we can reasonable assume from the perspective of the pagan Romans, just a silly revolutionary zealot worthy only of mockery and scorn…
“Hail king of the Jews!”
Who Do you say that he is?
So let’s walk it through…
If Jesus was not a prophet as you said “I disagree”
Then Who was he?
The Jews at the time struggled with the same question
“Some say you are the prophet Elijah…”
" He has a demon…"
Or As we can reasonable assume from the perspective of the pagan Romans, just a silly revolutionary zealot worthy only of mockery and scorn…
“Hail king of the Jews!”
Who Do you say that he is?
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