What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

[meltzerboy]

“What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?”

That is the original question.
I have a different angle here.

Not to first of all try to prove that Jesus was a holy prophet and the messiah but that there was in fact MORE to bring after the revelations of God through Moses.

Here is my simple scriptural support.

“Then the LORD replied… I will raise up for them a prophet like you (Moses)… I will put my words in the mouth of the prophet… ANYONE who does not heed the words that the prophet shall speak in my name, I MYSELF will hold accountable.”

If God completed revelation through Moses alone, then why this prophet?

And If indeed we agree there is more to be done and “brought” after Moses… then who is this prophet, if not Jesus of Nazareth?

Context, as always, is so important here. Immediately preceding this verse, G-d tells His people they are not to believe in astrologers as do the Pagan nations, and immediately after this verse, G-d warns the Jews not to believe in false prophets. It is apparent that this verse refers to the legitimate prophet who will directly succeed Moses and that the Jewish people should pay heed to him and not to the false prophets who will come later on. The verse is not referring to a distant Messiah but to a prophet of the immediate future. Moses had already been told by G-d that he would not cross over into the Promised Land and the Book of Deuteronomy serves as a farewell on the part of Moses, including a recapitulation of the Law to guide the people. IOW, G-d is preparing the Jews for a new leader.

 

[PennyinCanada]

Isaiah 53:5

But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

You should realize that the verses you quote are among the most controversial, and more ink has been spilled on their interpretation by both Jewish and Christian scholars, than virtually any other in the Bible. The word “pierced” itself is controversial regarding its translation from the Hebrew text, and whether the passage is referring to the Messiah or to Israel has been a bone of contention for generations.

Even if one removes the line with pierced, how was this fulfilled as Israel? Who are the people who have received peace, or had their wounds healed? If Israel was crushed, who is the text referring to in ‘our iniquities’? I’m missing some key points. Thank you for your kind reply.

 

[Servant19]

The verse is not referring to a distant Messiah but to a prophet of the immediate future… IOW, G-d is preparing the Jews for a new leader.

Who is this prophet of the immediate future then?

 

[meltzerboy]

Even if one removes the line with pierced, how was this fulfilled as Israel? Who are the people who have received peace, or had their wounds healed? If Israel was crushed, who is the text referring to in ‘our iniquities’? I’m missing some key points. Thank you for your kind reply.

It is not the iniquities of Israel that the passage is discussing, according to several Jewish scholars, but the iniquities of the nations who caused Israel to suffer. Isaiah is thus talking about the wrongs that have been inflicted on G-d’s suffering servant, that is, Israel.

 

[meltzerboy]

Who is this prophet of the immediate future then?

Perhaps Samuel. Note that from Samuel to Jesus covers a time period of over 1,000 years. However, the verse is really talking about the whole lineage of prophets who would follow Moses, the first and prototype prophet, as well as considered the greatest prophet according to Judaism. It is important for the Jewish people to pay attention to the true prophets and steer clear of the false prophets, who are mentioned right after this verse. It is also interesting that Islam interprets the verse as referring to Muhammad.

 

[ianmarie91]

“It is not the iniquities of Israel”

Why then does God tell Isaiah…

“I have tested you (Israel) in the fire of suffering, as silver is refined in a furnace. But I have found that you are worthless.”

Isaiah 48:10

Also Countless times God puts the whole nation of his chosen people on blast.

“Stubborn Generation”

“For forty years I endured them”

Not to mention he brings down his wrath upon them… look almost anywhere in Exodus… and he commands them to perform rituals for repentance.

Why would God command them to repent if they are sinless and in no need of redemption?

 

[meltzerboy]

“It is not the iniquities of Israel”

Why then does God tell Isaiah…

“I have tested you (Israel) in the fire of suffering, as silver is refined in a furnace. But I have found that you are worthless.”

Isaiah 48:10

Also Countless times God puts the whole nation of his chosen people on blast.

“Stubborn Generation”

“For forty years I endured them”

Not to mention he brings down his wrath upon them… look almost anywhere in Exodus… and he commands them to perform rituals for repentance.

Why would God command them to repent if they are sinless and in no need of redemption?

The beginning of the Book of Isaiah often excoriates the Jewish people for their faithlessness and evil deeds. This is one of the functions of prophets; think of Nathan, for example. But notice then a shift in Isaiah, in which he declares that G-d will forgive His people and that His mercy is never-ending (as is repeated in Psalms). How can one’s sins be forgotten by G-d as if they had never existed and turned from scarlet-red to pure white? The answer is a change of heart as revealed in one’s behavior, and Isaiah goes into detail on how this may be achieved: by means of feeding the poor, tending to the sick, caring for the widow and orphan, and so on, as well as seeking forgiveness directly from G-d.

 

[Servant19]

That’s a really good question!

Yes, Jesus gave us salvation. Original, and other sin, was so grave that the level of atonement and sacrifice necessary to free mankind could only be achieved through divinity, itself.

Further, before Jesus, God spoke indirectly…through prophets…Moses, and others. However, with Jesus**, EVERYTHING** changed! New wine…new wine skins! Through Jesus, God spoke to us, directly!

Thankyou for this ClearWater, but I am not so sure Jesus would agree with you here:

John 12:49
For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.

and

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people.

It seems clear to me that God spoke “through” Jesus too

As we grew, we no longer used, “An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” and were told to “turn the other cheek”, forgive. We moved away from the letter of the law and more towards the spirit of the law.

This is great! Totally agree…this is something profound and brilliant that Jesus bought

Also, the commandments were expanded, explained, and summarized in …love God above all things and your neighbor as yourself.

I would think that the Jews would say that this was part of Moses teachings too however

God offered himself as the atonement for mankind’s sins.

Again there was no need for atonement. The provisions for atonement of sins were already within the Mishnah…

Jesus was the fulfilment of the prophecies! With Moses, we had the Old Covenant. With Christ, we had the New Covenant…the new alliance…everlasting. Moses was with the Old Testament. Christ bought the New Testament.

What does this mean to you?

With Moses, we had bread from heaven in the form of Manna. Christ was our bread from heaven to feed us. Christ was the “New Adam”.

Again, what does this mean to you?

Christ overcame death through his cross and resurrection, something which Moses didn’t do. However, just as Moses raised the snakes on the pole in the desert to heal his people, Christ was raised for our healing…and salvation.

Again, what does this bring to your life?
Jews are assured salvation already…

With Moses, we had the passover feast with a lamb, unleavened bread, and blood. With Christ, even at the same time as the Passover, was going to be our new sacrifice. He was the “Lamb of God”, the “Bread of Life”. His blood was our cup of salvation.

Again, I feel that the theme of salvation, redemption and atonement are already provided for in Judaism, so maybe we can move forward?

 

[Michael57]

Just wondering what it was that Jesus brought to humanity that was not already brought by Moses Himself?

What is the Catholic (and non-Catholic if anyone wishes to contribute) position on this?

Thanks and G-d bless!

I recommend you read Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho. Here’s a link, it’s free online: LINK

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Moses brought the law by which all men are condemned, Jesus brought salvation and complete redemption. He brought ressurection ( do not pretend you agree with me on that because you know what I mean). He was the only mediator between God and man.

 

[PennyinCanada]

It is not the iniquities of Israel that the passage is discussing, according to several Jewish scholars, but the iniquities of the nations who caused Israel to suffer. Isaiah is thus talking about the wrongs that have been inflicted on G-d’s suffering servant, that is, Israel.

Thank you for your reply, but you didn’t actually answer my question.
If Israel is the suffering servant, who is it that was healed because Israel suffered? If it’s a passage about the suffering servant Israel, who are the other people who got peace?

If you wish to answer that *it remains a mystery for God to reveal, *I will accept that answer.

 

[drac16]

He brought the Gospel, which was a book of revelation that was given to him by Allah. He came to confirm the Torah and to bring new light, including the foretelling of the final prophet, whom he called ‘Ahmad’. He also healed lepers, blind people and even raised the dead (by God’s permission).

 

[RebeccaJ]

Also, if possible, wherever you can, would you mind providing a reference for any responses you give?

I think it is important that our thoughts and positions are backed by the Holy Word, wherever possible

St. Paul covers the question, “How are we justified before God?” several times. I don’t have the time at this particular moment to get the exact references for you, but in short he teaches that th law was given to Moses so that the people of God could be made righteous before God, but that no one is able to justify themselves. (Ie, we fail). We are justified through Christ, made righteous in and through Him.

Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. What then is fulfilled? Our justification.

 

[Servant19]

St. Paul covers the question, “How are we justified before God?” several times. I don’t have the time at this particular moment to get the exact references for you, but in short he teaches that th law was given to Moses so that the people of God could be made righteous before God, but that no one is able to justify themselves. (Ie, we fail). We are justified through Christ, made righteous in and through Him.

Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. What then is fulfilled? Our justification.

Thank you Rebecca

May I ask what do you mean that Christians are made righteous through Christ? That you do not fail, whereas Jews do fail?

 

[TEPO]

He came to confirm the Torah and to bring new light, including the foretelling of the final prophet, whom he called ‘Ahmad’.

Could you show a source that indicates that Jesus actually foretold the coming of Mohammed as the final prophet?

 

[Red_Sox_1]

Could you show a source that indicates that Jesus actually foretold the coming of Mohammed as the final prophet?

From one of many Bahai perspectives, Matthew 24:29-31 is a reference to the coming of Mohammad.

Baha’is believe Mohammad declared “I am Jesus!”

 

[meltzerboy]

Moses brought the law by which all men are condemned, Jesus brought salvation and complete redemption. He brought ressurection ( do not pretend you agree with me on that because you know what I mean). He was the only mediator between God and man.

The Law (Torah) is not intended to condemn man; it is intended to teach man how to live in freedom according to moral values and G-d’s will. IOW, the Law should not be followed as if it were a burden, but rather in joy and delight for it is mankind’s “salvation.” And if one strays from the Law in some respect, as we all do, G-d is always merciful and ready to forgive us if we only repent of our wrongdoing and try to do better the next time.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thank you Rebecca

May I ask what do you mean that Christians are made righteous through Christ? That you do not fail, whereas Jews do fail?

Hi, I said we fail. By we I mean everyone. . By failure, I mean sin. Sin separates us from God. The Christian understanding of God, is that He his merciful AND just.

Our sins require justice, but God is merciful, and so we understand sin puts us in need of God’s mercy, which has been given through the ages. Moses being an important indicator of God’s mercy, in the form of God’s action towards the people of God. We call these historical events, of God acting in the world, “salvation history”.

As someone says, these events prefigure Christ, who is God’s mercy and justice, on our behalf. Once, for all.

 

[Hypnotoad]

So there is nothing to be redeemed from…

Apparently a large group of Jews (the first Christians) disagree with you. The conclusion I gather from their actions is the Jews didn’t believe in original sin because they were not aware of it at the time. This must mean Christ revealed its existence to them and the need for a rebirth (baptism). Now if the Jews didn’t believe in original sin simply because they were not aware of its existence then I hardly see how their unbelief in something they didn’t know existed is evidence against the necessity for Jesus.

 

[TEPO]

From one of many Bahai perspectives, Matthew 24:29-31 is a reference to the coming of Mohammad.

Baha’is believe Mohammad declared “I am Jesus!”

wow!

is there any way you can find a source from official Bahai teachings that this is accurate? I find this extremely peculiar. Thanks.

…also, just out of curiosity, what did Mohammed bring to the world that was not already brought by Jesus? Thanks again.