What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

[daler]

http://media.tumblr.com/720115e79f48aae19bc1b61e230491c3/tumblr_inline_mvvkfg7c8E1r79k32.gif

PR,

. I remember watching the Johnny Carson show one time back in the sixties. He was telling a story about a fellow who had been searching all his life, through mountains and forests, jungles and deserts, trying to find out the answer to the question: “What is the meaning of life?”

. He had gone everywhere, talked to all the great sages, worn himself out, but still could not find the answer. Finally, somewhere in Nepal, he was told of a great spiritual guru who surely knew the answer.

. So he again went through the forests, got bit by spiders and snakes, almost drowned, and had lost his toes to frostbite while climbing this high mountain, up in the clouds, through the ice and snow. (By the way, Johnny was speaking with this really cool Indian accent, like a Maharishi…

. Finally, he sees the great guru, covers the last hurdles, and approaches him with great reverence and hope. Unwilling to disturb his deep meditation, he waits patiently at his feet for two or three more days, at which point the guru opens his eyes and tells him to ask his question.

. So this poor fellow, all shriveled up and freezing, dying of hunger, with frostbitten toes, with great anticipation addresses the great guru, asking:

. O great one! What… … … is the meaning… … … (his teeth are chattering, too, ya know… ) of life???

. Beaming with a great smile and pure joy, the guru tells him simply:

"Life… … … is a flower… … … "

. Now that the fellow hears this, he ponders his situation, starving, freezing, dying… and says to the guru:

. "I have travelled to every corner of the world, spent years searching out the truth, starving, suffering, and in great pain have come to you frostbitten and dying!!! and you tell me… “LIFE is a FLOWER!!!”

. Suddenly the guru loses his glow and his smile turns to a look of confusion as he turns to the poor fellow, and says:

. “You mean… … … life “Isn’t” ?? a flower???”

. ;’’-)

.

 

[Servant19]

Dear brother Servant,

Peace be with you.

I must say - with all due respect because you are an informed, intelligent contributor to CAF - I am not convinced by your argument above. The Baha’i Faith also teaches quite extensively regarding the “fear” of God. Baha’u’llah stated quite plainly:

Christianity has never understood this in the sense of servile fear but rather more in terms of humble “awe” and “wonder” in an obedient fashion before the Majesty of God. Christians see themselves as Sons of God through the power of the Holy Spirit. A son does not live in servile fear, rather he respectfully obeys his Father out of love and in dignified humility, as Thomas Á Kempis (1380-1471) wrote: “There is no real liberty and true joy, save in the fear of God with a quiet conscience.”

The Roman Catholic Church declares the “Fear” of God to be one of the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit. In Islam it is a foundational belief along with the Love of God for daily Muslim prayers and practice.

The Catholic Encyclopedia explains that this gift “fills us with a sovereign respect for God, and makes us dread, above all things, to offend Him.”

Is this not what Baha’u’llah said above?

Our only fear is that we should lose the Beloved of our soul through attachment to material things and desires. In this light, the fear of the Lord is the fear that we are not doing enough to thank our divine Beloved for his infinite grace. We desire to nurture a loving relationship with Him because in his Presence we have life and to be far from him is to experience true pain.

It isn’t servile fear (ie the fear of getting reprimanded as in the case of a slave) but rather that of “filial” fear - the fear of offending someone that we love, of a sin against love itself, which stems from a heart that is completely self-surrendered to the Divine Will and could not bear to see or do anything contrary to God’s Divine Providence.

Fear of God is thus a healthy buffer against “self-will”.

Would I not be right in thinking that Baha’is would view “the fear of God” in a similar manner?

As you will know, the Qur’an states:

And the New Testament puts this in even more stark terms:

I should also add that Catholicism is the world’s single largest and most widespread religious body. If there ever was a global religion, surely Catholic Christianity would be it or at least high up in the league tables?

God bless you friend.

Dearest brother in God, Vouthon.

I actually felt my post regarding the letter of negation would attract your interest and that you would post what you did.

Firstly let me clarify in terms of my meaning of a "truly" global religion. I undertsand that Christianity is a global religion for it has been preached to all nations, and in terms of numbers, there is many adherents. My understanding of “truly” global is to imply “the ONLY religion” that is practiced globally. This is one of the reasons, from my understanding, that Baha’u’llah refers to His Cause as the Faith of God, or the Cause of God. Namely, there is no other Faith in reality, God’s Faith. This Faith goes beyond labels, names and segregations and borders. It is truly one.

In order to grasp a glimpse into understanding what the letter of negation really represents, I thought I would quote Adib Taherzadeh, from His book, Revelation of Baha’u’llah Vol. 2 pg 286 ( peyman.info/cl/Baha%27i/Others/ROB/V2/p283-290Ch13.html#p286 ) who sets a wonderful foundation for its implications.

Might I also add that the date 21st April 1863 has tremendous implications, for it is on this date that the entire world changed, the Prophetic Cycle of Adam ended and the Cycle of Manifestation began, usgered in by Baha’u’llah. From that date, the letter of negation was overcome by the letter of Affirmation and it took root upon the Tree of God.

(cont. below)

 

[Servant19]

Here’s Mr. Taherzadeh’s extract:

In the Tablet of Salmán Bahá’u’lláh explains one of the most interesting mysteries in the Qur’án, a mystery which had hitherto remained unnoticed. He refers to the well-known phrase, ‘There is no God but Him’. This is the cardinal statement of faith which every Muslim must make, and which is the basis of the Islámic religion.

As we have previously written, the Word of God has many significances which are beyond the ken of men. There are inner meanings enshrined in the Word of God which only His Manifestation and those whom He guides understand. Bahá’u’lláh explains that in this phrase ‘There is no God but Him’, the letter of negation precedes that of affirmation. Therefore as a result of the creative influence of this phrase, ever since it was revealed, the violators of the Cause of God, representing the letter of negation, dominated over the faithful in the past. All the sufferings which the hands of the breakers of the Covenant of God inflicted upon the steadfast Muslims and their apparent superiority, were the fulfilment of the Words uttered by Muhammad. God had, through His wisdom, so destined that those who were impure and rebellious should dominate those who were true and sincere.

It is a Bahá’í belief that those who usurped the right of Imám 'Alí, the lawful successor of Muhammad and the interpreter of His Word, were acting against the expressed wishes of their Prophet. They disregarded the injunctions of Muhammad concerning His successor, became the primary cause of division within the Faith of Islám, brought about the death of the holy Imáms and persecuted their followers. They were the letters of negation and till the end of the Dispensation of Muhammad, dominated His faithful followers.

History demonstrates that great differences arose among the followers of each religion soon after the death of its Founder. These differences led to schisms and divisions which have increased with the passage of time. This process, however, must not be so misunderstood as to lead us to believe that the Founders of the world’s great religions in the past were incapable of establishing ways and means of uniting their followers, or of staying the hands of the unfaithful from corrupting the religion of God.

That religions have divided into sects is not due to the teachings of their Founders, but rather to the immaturity of their followers. Just as children are too young to be held responsible for keeping their clothes clean as they play outside, so humanity in past dispensations had not acquired sufficient maturity to protect the religion of God from disunity and discord.

Even in Islám, the most recent of the older religions, men were not sufficiently mature to receive from Muhammad a firm Covenant, similar to that established by Bahá’u’lláh, a Covenant which would require His followers strictly to follow His Faith without creating division within it. On the contrary, as we have already observed from the fore-mentioned phrase in the Qur’án, Muhammad knew that His followers would not be capable of maintaining their unity after Him. He knew that if He were to establish an irrevocable covenant in writing, the people of Islám would not have had the maturity and capacity at that time to observe its provisions strictly. But this is not to be regarded as a failure on the part of Islám, or of older religions which became similarly divided. It was only natural for humanity, which had not come of age, to neglect its duty and conduct itself irresponsibly. However, through God’s forbearance and justice, the followers of past religions received their spiritual sustenance regardless of the sects they created.

For example, the primacy of Peter is acknowledged in the Gospels. However, differences arose and the followers of Christ became divided. Nevertheless each sect received a measure of the bounties of Christ. The tree of Christianity blossomed even after acquiring several branches, and each one remained verdant and flourishing until the advent of Islám when the Dispensation of Christ was closed. Similarly, the two major branches of Islám remained part of that religion. Even those who violated the wishes of the Prophet were not cut off from the Tree of Islám; all received their sustenance from it until the advent of the Báb when the Dispensation of Islám came to an end.

However, the Dispensation of Bahá’u’lláh has ushered in a new day. Through the potency of His Revelation mankind is destined to come of age and Bahá’u’lláh has given it responsibility. He established an irrefutable Covenant with His followers, appointed its Centre, 'Abdu’l-Bahá, exhorted the believers to follow Him and made it clear that in this Dispensation there would be no room for disunity and division. The Cause of God is one and indivisible, and man, having left behind the stages of childhood and adolescence, must now play a responsible part in maintaining its unity, in consolidating its world-wide structure and in protecting its nascent institutions from the unfaithful.

Referring to the fore-mentioned phrase ‘There is no God but Him’, Bahá’u’lláh, in the Tablet of Salmán, proclaims in majestic and powerful language that He has removed the letter of negation which had been placed before that of affirmation. This phrase, which the Prophet of Islám, through His all-encompassing wisdom, regarded to be the cornerstone of His Faith, is now, in the Dispensation of Bahá’u’lláh, symbolically replaced by the affirmative phrase ‘He is God’, signifying that the Revealer of the Cause of God holds within His hands the reins of authority, and, unlike the Dispensations of the past, no one has the power to wrest it from Him. The violators and the breakers of Bahá’u’lláh’s Covenant, as history has shown, have been utterly impotent to introduce divisions within His Faith, to arrest its onward march or influence its glorious destiny.

(cont. below)

 

[Servant19]

How striking are the evidences of the creative power of the words of Bahá’u’lláh, that through but a movement of His Pen He reversed a process which had persisted for centuries, which had created schisms within religions and placed the true exponents of the Faith of God under the domination of the unfaithful. After the ascension of Bahá’u’lláh, 'Abdu’l-Bahá was opposed by no less a person than His brother Mírzá Muhammad-'Alí. This son of Bahá’u’lláh tried, against the provisions of the Will and Testament of His Father and in company with a number of outstanding teachers of the Faith, to undermine the exalted position which Bahá’u’lláh had conferred upon 'Abdu’l-Bahá. In the end, the power of the Covenant of Bahá’u’lláh swept Mírzá Muhammad-'Alí into the abyss of ignominy and he perished ingloriously. Through the same power, the breakers of the Covenant during the ministry of Shoghi Effendi were also struck down.

It is important to note that those who rebelled against 'Abdu’l-Bahá and broke the Covenant were not of a foolish and senseless type. On the contrary, most of them were intelligent and capable men; some were highly knowledgeable teachers and immensely respected by the community. Jamál-i-Burújirdí was a distinguished mujtahid with a keen mind, Siyyid Mihdíy-i-Dahají was an erudite person and a powerful speaker. There were several others like them who were once outstanding followers of Bahá’u’lláh, who served the Faith with distinction but whose ego destroyed them in the end. Covenant-breaking is a deadly spiritual disease. It existed in the Dispensations of the past, but as already explained, it resulted in schisms and divisions. This disease is contagious and, if not checked, can destroy the very foundations of religion. It is for this reason that Bahá’u’lláh and 'Abdu’l-Bahá have warned the believers not to associate with those who break the Covenant. Through this vital commandment, which is entirely new in the history of religion, the Cause of God, which since its inception has been betrayed many times by proud and vainglorious men, and whose appointed Centres were ruthlessly opposed by bands of egotistical followers, has emerged triumphant from these most severe crises, its unity unimpaired and its solidarity further enhanced.

Bearing in mind the turmoil of the age in which we live and the spirit of rebellion which agitates human society today, we realize that the Cause of Bahá’u’lláh would have been divided by now into hundreds of sects had it not been for the power of the Covenant of Bahá’u’lláh and the creative influence of His Words in which we find the assurance that this is ‘the Day which shall not be followed by night’.

peyman.info/cl/Baha%27i/Others/ROB/V2/p283-290Ch13.html#p286

From my humble understanding, the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is intended to herald an age of “incredible” spiritual maturity, and while Baha’u’llah does indeed have some passages referring to the fear of God, most of which was revealed before His declaration in 1863, His call for mankind is the following:

"Say: From My laws the sweet-smelling savour of My garment can be smelled, and by their aid the standards of Victory will be planted upon the highest peaks. The Tongue of My power hath, from the heaven of My omnipotent glory, addressed to My creation these words: “Observe My commandments, for the love of My beauty.” Happy is the lover that hath inhaled the divine fragrance of his Best-Beloved from these words, laden with the perfume of a grace which no tongue can describe. By My life! He who hath drunk the choice wine of fairness from the hands of My bountiful favour will circle around My commandments that shine above the Dayspring of My creation."

                              - Baha'u'llah Kitab-i-Aqdas para 4

…hope this aids to clarify my understanding brother, and God bless you, and all on this thread

 

[MartinJordan]

Servant19, there is not in ONE word about Moses in anything you’ve put out above. You are wasting your time.

MJ

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

The Law does NOT condemn us as sinners. Judaism does not even regard us as sinners, but rather as imperfect human beings (certainly as compared to G-d) who need the Law to teach us how to live according to G-d’s will and moral values. As the Talmud states: “The Torah is a tree of life for those who cling to her.” In Deuteronomy, Moses explicitly states that it is not so difficult to follow the Law, which is described in Psalms as “sweeter than honey.” Paul seems to be mistaken in the way he depicts the Law. And if we err, we seek forgiveness from G-d, who is ever merciful, as well as our fellow man, and try to do better the next time.

Jesus showed us that the Law is impossible to abide by, that our righteousness is worthless to God,
and that without belief on Jesus Christ as the Messiah & Son of God, we would die in our sins…

…is what the Apostles of Christ taught anyway.

 

[PRmerger]

PR,

. I remember watching the Johnny Carson show one time back in the sixties. He was telling a story about a fellow who had been searching all his life, through mountains and forests, jungles and deserts, trying to find out the answer to the question: “What is the meaning of life?”

. He had gone everywhere, talked to all the great sages, worn himself out, but still could not find the answer. Finally, somewhere in Nepal, he was told of a great spiritual guru who surely knew the answer.

. So he again went through the forests, got bit by spiders and snakes, almost drowned, and had lost his toes to frostbite while climbing this high mountain, up in the clouds, through the ice and snow. (By the way, Johnny was speaking with this really cool Indian accent, like a Maharishi…

. Finally, he sees the great guru, covers the last hurdles, and approaches him with great reverence and hope. Unwilling to disturb his deep meditation, he waits patiently at his feet for two or three more days, at which point the guru opens his eyes and tells him to ask his question.

. So this poor fellow, all shriveled up and freezing, dying of hunger, with frostbitten toes, with great anticipation addresses the great guru, asking:

. O great one! What… … … is the meaning… … … (his teeth are chattering, too, ya know… ) of life???

. Beaming with a great smile and pure joy, the guru tells him simply:

"Life… … … is a flower… … … "

. Now that the fellow hears this, he ponders his situation, starving, freezing, dying… and says to the guru:

. "I have travelled to every corner of the world, spent years searching out the truth, starving, suffering, and in great pain have come to you frostbitten and dying!!! and you tell me… “LIFE is a FLOWER!!!”

. Suddenly the guru loses his glow and his smile turns to a look of confusion as he turns to the poor fellow, and says:

. “You mean… … … life “Isn’t” ?? a flower???”

. ;’’-)

.

 

[Servant19]

Servant19, there is not in ONE word about Moses in anything you’ve put out above. You are wasting your time.

MJ

Come on Martin, be fair on me

You didn’t write that in response to Vouthon’s post did you? Be fair brother. It was a response to a question…

 

[MartinJordan]

Come on Martin, be fair on me

You didn’t write that in response to Vouthon’s post did you? Be fair brother. It was a response to a question…

Take it in private perhaps?

MJ

 

[Servant19]

Take it in private perhaps?

MJ

…I think the courteous thing is to respond in kind…maybe I’m wrong, can you tell me when and how to respond?

 

[MartinJordan]

…I think the courteous thing is to respond in kind…maybe I’m wrong, can you tell me when and how to respond?

You can go to your profile and send a private message to whomever you want to respond to. I can only say that the thread (which you started of course) shouldn’t become Bahai thread VII

MJ

 

[Servant19]

You can go to your profile and send a private message to whomever you want to respond to. I can only say that the thread (which you started of course) shouldn’t become Bahai thread VII

MJ

Thats not my intention, but if you notice, you may wish to say the same thing to Eddie (who has mentioned the word Baha’i in EVERY post he has made on this thread), if you were a man who wishes to display true fair-mindedness.

I will absolutely take your advice, for I am a guest here, however fair-mindedness is a gift from God

 

[MartinJordan]

Thats not my intention, but if you notice, you may wish to say the same thing to Eddie (who has mentioned the word Baha’i in EVERY post he has made on this thread), if you were a man who wishes to display true fair-mindedness.

I will absolutely take your advice, for I am a guest here, however fair-mindedness is a gift from God

Servant19, Im not going force you to anything. However, if you go way back I humbly (well maybe it didn’t seem humble enough) asked you to go for RCIA. Then you responded immediately about “you know who and his teachings” and how much you needed to catch up before embarking on RCIA.

I can’t keep the benefit of my doubt anymore.

MJ

 

[Servant19]

Jesus showed us that the Law is impossible to abide by, that our righteousness is worthless to God,
and that without belief on Jesus Christ as the Messiah & Son of God, we would die in our sins…

…is what the Apostles of Christ taught anyway.

Hi Judas, why is our righteousness worthless to God if we are not Catholics?

If baptism by implicit desire is a de fide teaching of Catholicism then surely all peoples who are striving to be righteous according to their sincere belief in God (whether throgh Muhammad, Moses, Krsna, Buddha, Baha’u’llah) would be acceptable in the sight of God and therefore there would be no death in our sins.

 

[Servant19]

Servant19, Im not going force you to anything. However, if you go way back I humbly (well maybe it didn’t seem humble enough) asked you to go for RCIA. Then you responded immediately about “you know who and his teachings” and how much you needed to catch up before embarking on RCIA.

I can’t keep the benefit of my doubt anymore.

MJ

So I can’t speak about my personal life on here?

theres a difference between saying “I have no time right now because…” and writing posts such as “Baha’i say this, Baha’i say that, Baha’i are deceivers, Baha’i are liars, Baha’u’llah is this and that”

Is there any empathy at all?

:hug1:

 

[daisychain]

PR,

. I remember watching the Johnny Carson show one time back in the sixties. He was telling a story about a fellow who had been searching all his life, through mountains and forests, jungles and deserts, trying to find out the answer to the question: “What is the meaning of life?”

. He had gone everywhere, talked to all the great sages, worn himself out, but still could not find the answer. Finally, somewhere in Nepal, he was told of a great spiritual guru who surely knew the answer.

. So he again went through the forests, got bit by spiders and snakes, almost drowned, and had lost his toes to frostbite while climbing this high mountain, up in the clouds, through the ice and snow. (By the way, Johnny was speaking with this really cool Indian accent, like a Maharishi…

. Finally, he sees the great guru, covers the last hurdles, and approaches him with great reverence and hope. Unwilling to disturb his deep meditation, he waits patiently at his feet for two or three more days, at which point the guru opens his eyes and tells him to ask his question.

. So this poor fellow, all shriveled up and freezing, dying of hunger, with frostbitten toes, with great anticipation addresses the great guru, asking:

. O great one! What… … … is the meaning… … … (his teeth are chattering, too, ya know… ) of life???

. Beaming with a great smile and pure joy, the guru tells him simply:

"Life… … … is a flower… … … "

. Now that the fellow hears this, he ponders his situation, starving, freezing, dying… and says to the guru:

. "I have travelled to every corner of the world, spent years searching out the truth, starving, suffering, and in great pain have come to you frostbitten and dying!!! and you tell me… “LIFE is a FLOWER!!!”

. Suddenly the guru loses his glow and his smile turns to a look of confusion as he turns to the poor fellow, and says:

. “You mean… … … life “Isn’t” ?? a flower???”

. ;’’-)

.

I love your stories, Daler!
Let’s not forget that Adam & Eve ate the forbidden fruit of “knowledge” hence the quest began for humanity’s everlasting search for the “truth”…so the purpose of life might be learning and experiencing, and through these finding our way back to God, to our lost paradise…the Creation longs his unity with his Creator…
Life is a flower though…like a daisy

 

[daler]

Servant19, there is not in ONE word about Moses in anything you’ve put out above. You are wasting your time.

---

“The Kingdom of God is among us: do not seek strange things, do not seek novelties with this worldly curiosity. Let us allow the Spirit to lead us forward in that wisdom, which is like a soft breeze,". This is the Spirit of the Kingdom of God, of which Jesus speaks. So be it.” - Pope Francis

MJ

Martin,
. I really like the quote you posted from Pope Francis. The Spirit leads us and we follow, or it is like the wind in our sails which moves us. We have only to raise our sails and catch the Mighty Wind of God!

. As to Moses, and Jesus, and the other Prophets of God, sometimes I think that a little plant shows us exactly how this works, by first piercing through the soil, as in the stage of Adam. Then a couple of little leaves from Noah extend to receive the Light of the Sun and grow this little plant a bit further.

. At another stage the leaves of Abraham sprout, and Isaac and Ishmael. Then this little plant gets bigger as the staff in the Hand of Moses parted the soil and the seas to make room for the children of Israel to widen this garden.

. Then Jesus holds Himself out as yet another branch bearing the burden of still more leaves, the followers of whom are stricken from the tree as martyrs, appearing to be dead leaves on the ground, while in reality, they further nourish the tree of His faith.

. This little plant has now become a mighty Tree which God planted long ago. It has blossomed and is in the stage of fruition. It is One Tree, and though there appear to be many branches, they are all connected, fed by the same trunk through its roots.

.
.

 

[daisychain]

You can go to your profile and send a private message to whomever you want to respond to. I can only say that the thread (which you started of course) shouldn’t become Bahai thread VII

MJ

To be fair I don’t think it is Servant who is “turning” this thread into a Baha’i thread if it is at all turning into a Baha’i thread…
Also it is only natural that everybody will give an answer to the OP question reflective of their own faith, so the Baha’i will give a Baha’i answer, a Christian a Christian, a Jew a Jewish understanding and a Muslim a Muslim point of view…

And I’m sorry for interrupting

 

[MartinJordan]

So I can’t speak about my personal life on here?

theres a difference between saying “I have no time right now because…” and writing posts such as “Baha’i say this, Baha’i say that, Baha’i are deceivers, Baha’i are liars, Baha’u’llah is this and that”

Is there any empathy at all?

:hug1:

If there was no empathy, you may not been able to carry on participating in CAF. There’s no persecution here. You are welcome to state whatever your beliefs but you guys also had enough chances on the Bahai thread (that of course is my opinion).

MJ

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Hi Judas, why is our righteousness worthless to God if we are not Catholics?

If baptism by implicit desire is a de fide teaching of Catholicism then surely all peoples who are striving to be righteous according to their sincere belief in God (whether throgh Muhammad, Moses, Krsna, Buddha, Baha’u’llah) would be acceptable in the sight of God and therefore there would be no death in our sins.

Oh no, even all the “good works” and righteousness of Catholics means nothing to God.
Faith without Works is dead , that is true, but the works themselves do not give us any
credit at all, Baha’i, Jew, Protestant, Muslim, Mormon, or even Catholic. No matter how
“Good” any of us are in life, what are we gonna do about our sins?

This is where God provides the solution, for God so loved the world that he gave his on-
ly begotten Son Jesus, that anybody who believes on him (AND what he) may not per-
ish but have Eternal Life.

Now as for baptism by implicit desire, the Spirit breathes where he will (Acts 10:46-47),
but that doesn’t mean that the Spirit is going to necessarily move the person to believe
against Christianity. God is merciful, the Lord works in mysterious ways, finds many in
strange places, but God has set limits!

God has provided a solution to sin and when we are offered this gift, we had better take
it. The only other alternative is to reject the Gospel, and we know that’s trouble, right?