What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?

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Have the bahai actually answered the question of the thread? Or refuted it? I think hebrews establishes who Christ is compared to Moses.

Hebrews 3:1 Brethren and saints, you share a heavenly calling. Think, now, of Jesus as the apostle and the high priest of the faith which we profess, 2 and how loyal he was to the God who had so appointed him; just as Moses was loyal in all the management of God’s house.[1] 3 In any household, the first honours are reserved for him who founded it; and in that degree, Jesus has a prouder title than Moses.[2] 4 Every household has its founder, and this household of creation was founded by God.[3] 5 Thus the loyalty of Moses in the management of all God’s house was the loyalty of a servant; he only bore witness to what was to be revealed later on; 6 whereas Christ’s was the loyalty of a Son in a household which is his own. What is that household? We are, if only we will keep unshaken to the end our confidence, and the hope which is our pride.

The bahai tell us that they accept the New testament? Do they accept the claims of the book of hebrews?
 
daisychain said:
To be fair I don’t think it is Servant who is “turning” this thread into a Baha’i thread if it is at all turning into a Baha’i thread…
Also it is only natural that everybody will give an answer to the OP question reflective of their own faith, so the Baha’i will give a Baha’i answer, a Christian a Christian, a Jew a Jewish understanding and a Muslim a Muslim point of view…

And I’m sorry for interrupting 😊
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Thankyou Daisy, thats what I thought too 🤷

Anyway…I like Martin, so what he says goes with me. Maybe there will be a lot of PM’s coming to everyone this week 😃
 
daisychain said:
I love your stories, Daler!
Let’s not forget that Adam & Eve ate the forbidden fruit of “knowledge” hence the quest began for humanity’s everlasting search for the “truth”…so the purpose of life might be learning and experiencing, and through these finding our way back to God, to our lost paradise…the Creation longs his unity with his Creator…
Life is a flower though…like a daisy 😃
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You’re so sweet, daisy… 😉

. and you have a good point to make. It is far more than an intellectual search, isn’t it…

. When people think its within “their intellect” to just figure it all out, they can miss the whole heart part… thats where music and song comes in, which reminds me of a great song called, “Why me Lord”. I love this song, especially the version by Kris Kristofferson.

. Please… anybody on the thread here who wants to get “out of their head” for a few minutes, this will do the trick. I personally guarantee it! 😉 This version is 6 minutes long and includes a brief interview:

youtube.com/watch?v=1tA7E7pbUws
 
Judas_Thaddeus said:
This is where God provides the solution, for God so loved the world that he gave his on-
ly begotten Son Jesus, that anybody who believes on him (AND what he) may not per-
ish but have Eternal Life.
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Thankyou Judas, can you explain to me therefore, will all Jews perish upon death? For they do not believe in Jesus, right?
Judas_Thaddeus said:
Now as for baptism by implicit desire, the Spirit breathes where he will (Acts 10:46-47),
but that doesn’t mean that the Spirit is going to necessarily move the person to believe
against Christianity. God is merciful, the Lord works in mysterious ways, finds many in
strange places, but God has set limits!
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can you explain, please what you mean when you say that a Spirit is going to move a person to believe AGAINST Christianity?

What is your understanding of going AGAINST Christianity?
Judas_Thaddeus said:
God has provided a solution to sin and when we are offered this gift, we had better take
it. The only other alternative is to reject the Gospel, and we know that’s trouble, right?
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I don’t reject the Gospel, I believe in it with all my heart. What does this spell for me as a non-Christian?
 
Servant the gospel is this, that Christ jesus came on earth and died for your sins. The gospel isnt that each manifestation equally is responsible for salvation. You have not dealt with the gospel itself that Jesus is the only name under heaven by which salvation can be obtained. You deny the gospel and preach another gospel. Paul told us to be careful of you.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Have the bahai actually answered the question of the thread? Or refuted it? I think hebrews establishes who Christ is compared to Moses.

Hebrews 3:1 Brethren and saints, you share a heavenly calling. Think, now, of Jesus as the apostle and the high priest of the faith which we profess, 2 and how loyal he was to the God who had so appointed him; just as Moses was loyal in all the management of God’s house.[1] 3 In any household, the first honours are reserved for him who founded it; and in that degree, Jesus has a prouder title than Moses.[2] 4 Every household has its founder, and this household of creation was founded by God.[3] 5 Thus the loyalty of Moses in the management of all God’s house was the loyalty of a servant; he only bore witness to what was to be revealed later on; 6 whereas Christ’s was the loyalty of a Son in a household which is his own. What is that household? We are, if only we will keep unshaken to the end our confidence, and the hope which is our pride.

The bahai tell us that they accept the New testament? Do they accept the claims of the book of hebrews?
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Hi Ignatian, I don’t think the intention of this thread was for Baha’is to provide an answer.

Anyway as per forum rules (set by MJ) I will answer your question via PM 😉
 
Servant19 said:
i Ignatian, I don’t think the intention of this thread was for Baha’is to provide an answer.

Anyway as per forum rules (set by MJ) I will answer your question via PM 😉
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The topic of the thread is whether or not Jesus has brought something that Moses has not. Why cannot bahai answer and refute the notion that Jesus is unique? It is certaintly part of the topic and you bahai have not had not any qualms before in this thread with trying to refute basic Christian notions of this. Obviously the bahai deny the claims of the newtestament that Jesus is greater than Moses, that he alone has provided salvation, that his name is the greatest by which mercy is obtained.

Please answer. Is Jesus the only name under heaven by which salvation is achieved? Or if I call on Moses to save me, moses who provided law and not the grace which Jesus provided, will he rescue me? Or will Moses demand I put myself under the law?
 
Servant19 said:
yes, but what does this MEAN Ignatian??

I still commit sin, you still commit sin. What did He die for then?
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Its as the new testament says, he died for your sake. You reject him dying for your sins though. Now I have no forensic theory as to how this justifies the person, all I know is what the new testament says that this sacrifice accomplishes the work of salvation once we have faith in Jesus Christ. Again your not so much dealing with the new testament you claim to believe (which I think you sincerely do not believe) instead you are trying to reject hte new testament itself. Who is the one mediator between God and man? Moses? Or Jesus?
 
Servant19 said:
Thankyou Judas, can you explain to me therefore, will all Jews perish upon death? For they do not believe in Jesus, right?
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Overall, I can’t say who is saved and who is not, I don’t know everyone’s
hearts, but I believe John 3:16. If a life long Jew in his final minute real-
izes that Jesus is the Christ, Son of the Living God, then dies, that’s a
good sign, but anyone who in their dying breath denies that God sent
His only Son and so forth, that’s terrible. 😦
Servant19 said:
can you explain, please what you mean when you say that a Spirit is going to move a person to believe AGAINST Christianity?
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First, I didn’t say that but the opposite.
Servant19 said:
What is your understanding of going AGAINST Christianity?
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The Faith professed in Christianity is that there is only One God, that this
God has nothing to do with Krishna, Buddha, Muhammad, Zoroaster, etc,
that this God is a Triune Being Father Son & Holy Spirit, that the Father
sent the Son to be the Savior of the World…(and much more).

Anybody with a different Gospel, a different God, a different Prophet &/or
Savior is against Christianity, because Christianity is talking about some-
thing completely different.
Servant19 said:
I don’t reject the Gospel, I believe in it with all my heart. What does this spell for me as a non-Christian?
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I’m sorry, but what do you believe about it? Do you believe in the same
Gospel as the Christians do? What exactly IS the Gospel to you? Be-
cause the Mormons would say that they believe the Gospel, but in the
next breath will top that with their BoM, D&C, and PGP.
What am I supposed to do? Tell a Baha’i that, “It’s okay
to not be Christian or believe as I do, God really doesn’t
care that much about what you believe in,” I cannot do
that, you realize this, yes?
​
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
The topic of the thread is whether or not Jesus has brought something that Moses has not. Why cannot bahai answer and refute the notion that Jesus is unique? It is certaintly part of the topic and you bahai have not had not any qualms before in this thread with trying to refute basic Christian notions of this. Obviously the bahai deny the claims of the newtestament that Jesus is greater than Moses, that he alone has provided salvation, that his name is the greatest by which mercy is obtained.

Please answer. Is Jesus the only name under heaven by which salvation is achieved? Or if I call on Moses to save me, moses who provided law and not the grace which Jesus provided, will he rescue me? Or will Moses demand I put myself under the law?
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Ignatian,
. Brother, again “bahai” is brought into this thread. (Martin, are you listening, friend?)

. Please go back and read the story of the little plant, a few posts back. Think on it awhile. Each stage of the plant has a unique signature. It is the “same plant”, and tearing off the leaves yelling about “my leaf is bigger than your leaf” entirely misses the point!

. God created this plant, and the soil, and the rain, and the sun, and all of God’s children have a place at the table to eat of the fruit of this sacred Tree. At whatever stage we appear before this sacred Tree, It reveals itself to us according to God’s grand design, for He is the Gardener. He planted the Tree…

. Now either we can accept or reject the new leaves, recognize the fruit, and accept the beauty of the Creator, or we can walk away complaining that we are hungry. Why are you here, brother Ignatian? If you wish to cling to one branch only of this divine and sacred Tree, then please… by all means… do so, dear friend.

. A few of us have stepped back and recognized that the Tree has grown some in the past couple of thousand years. In fact, its been in a growth spurt now for about a hundred and seventy years, although there are people such as yourself hacking away at the new growth as though it is a sin to simply sit back and watch it grow. What’s up, my friend in Christ.

. Now please, if you will, watch Kris Kristofferson’s interview and hear his song in praise of the branch of Jesus. I met him about 20 years ago, and he’s the real deal, and this is his song about his connection to Jesus, the same connection I made awhile back, and in the same way he describes. This is beautiful testimony:

youtube.com/watch?v=1tA7E7pbUws

.
 
daler said:
Ignatian,
. Brother, again “bahai” is brought into this thread. (Martin, are you listening, friend?)

. Please go back and read the story of the little plant, a few posts back. Think on it awhile. Each stage of the plant has a unique signature. It is the “same plant”, and tearing off the leaves yelling about “my leaf is bigger than your leaf” entirely misses the point!

. God created this plant, and the soil, and the rain, and the sun, and all of God’s children have a place at the table to eat of the fruit of this sacred Tree. At whatever stage we appear before this sacred Tree, It reveals itself to us according to God’s grand design, for He is the Gardener. He planted the Tree…

. Now either we can accept or reject the new leaves, recognize the fruit, and accept the beauty of the Creator, or we can walk away complaining that we are hungry. Why are you here, brother Ignatian? If you wish to cling to one branch only of this divine and sacred Tree, then please… by all means… do so, dear friend.

. A few of us have stepped back and recognized that the Tree has grown some in the past couple of thousand years. In fact, its been in a growth spurt now for about a hundred and seventy years, although there are people such as yourself hacking away at the new growth as though it is a sin to simply sit back and watch it grown. What’s up, my friend in Christ.

. Now please, if you will, watch Kris Kristofferson’s interview and hear his song in praise of the branch of Jesus. I met him about 20 years ago, and he’s the real deal, and this is his song about his connection to Jesus, the same connection I made awhile back, and in the same way he describes. This is beautiful testimony:

youtube.com/watch?v=1tA7E7pbUws

.
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Why should I bother with bahai at all if all I will get is a vague testimony and not an answer to the question “Is Jesus alone the saviour of mankind?” It is getting to a point which is rediculous wherein you ask the bahai what colour the sky is and they will quote their prophet or some other inspirational source without simply being able to say “blue.” Daler and rest of bahai, for once in these threads, be direct and honest. Don’t try to mislead, be direct and honest.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Who is the one mediator between God and man? Moses? Or Jesus?
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. The “Mediator” is the eternal Manifestation of God. He “mediates” our relationship with God, because God is infinitely above our capacity to know Him.

. We’ve all been around this dog and pony show before, dear friend. This particular subject has been mediated to pieces.

. At one time the Mediator mediated as Moses, at another Jesus. “Its Their job!!” And before you know it the Moderator is gonna moderate us for not moderating ourselves here, cause thats his or her job. God bless them big time for doing it so well…

. Peace be unto you, my friend.

. and please note the postscript below:

.
 
daler said:
. The “Mediator” is the eternal Manifestation of God. He “mediates” our relationship with God, because God is infinitely above our capacity to know Him.

. We’ve all been around this dog and pony show before, dear friend. This particular subject has been mediated to pieces.

. At one time the Mediator mediated as Moses, at another Jesus. “Its Their job!!” And before you know it the Moderator is gonna moderate us for not moderating ourselves here, cause thats his or her job. God bless them big time for doing it so well…

. Peace be unto you, my friend.

. and please note the postscript below:

.
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Except thats not what any of the scripture has said. Certaintly that is not what the new testament has said. Read hebrews and understand Jesus’s eternal priesthood and his uniqueness. The theology is not one messiahs coming every generation or so, it is one of expectation and waiting for the one to usher in God’s kingdom, any other itnerpretation is but your attempt to look back on the text from bahai perspective and place your own meaning there. Would the apostles understand at all what you are saying? Did the apostles say that Moses was equal to Jesus? They did not. The mediating role is unique to the person of Jesus, it doesn’t change. Moses was a sinner, Jesus was perfect. Mohammad was a sinner, Jesus was perfect. Your prophet was a sinner, Jesus was perfect.

Were people ever saved by the grace of Moses? Did any jew say “Faith through God our father and Moses” ? This is why the early church was accused of heresy, this is why you are inventing a new gospel never given by Jesus.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Why should I bother with bahai at all if all I will get is a vague testimony and not an answer to the question “Is Jesus alone the saviour of mankind?”
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Yes He is, but in the realm of dominion, the realm where “before Abraham was, I am” He is not known as Jesus.

In this physical realm, His name changes from age to age. In this age, He is known by a different name (who’s name I will not mention 😉 )

“He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.“ (Revelation 3:12)
 
PRmerger said:
No more than “he descended into a clinical depression” implies that depression is a place.
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Working very closely with psychologists in my profession, I must say that I never heard any if them say that depression was a “place” made of some form of structure, anyway…

You win PR 🙂

Is this a holy war for you, dear sister?
 
Servant19 said:
“Descending into hell” implies that Hell is a physical place. Is that correct Martin?
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As a matter of interest, Middle Eastern divinities were given to visits to the ‘underworld’, ever since (Sumerian Queen of Heaven and Earth) Inanna’s 3-day visit to her sister Ereshkigal (Queen of the Underworld but really Inanna in a bad mood).
 
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