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PRmerger
Guest
More like that, please!
What did Jesus bring to the world that was not already brought by Moses?
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Lochias
Guest
Totally agreed.
V
Vouthon
Guest
Dear brother Servant,
Peace be with you.
I must say - with all due respect because you are an informed, intelligent contributor to CAF - I am not convinced by your argument above. The Baha’i Faith also teaches quite extensively regarding the “fear” of God. Baha’u’llah stated quite plainly:
Christianity has never understood this in the sense of servile fear but rather more in terms of humble “awe” and “wonder” in an obedient fashion before the Majesty of God. Christians see themselves as Sons of God through the power of the Holy Spirit. A son does not live in servile fear, rather he respectfully obeys his Father out of love and in dignified humility, as Thomas Á Kempis (1380-1471) wrote: “There is no real liberty and true joy, save in the fear of God with a quiet conscience.”
The Roman Catholic Church declares the “Fear” of God to be one of the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit. In Islam it is a foundational belief along with the Love of God for daily Muslim prayers and practice.
The Catholic Encyclopedia explains that this gift “fills us with a sovereign respect for God, and makes us dread, above all things, to offend Him.”
Is this not what Baha’u’llah said above?
Our only fear is that we should lose the Beloved of our soul through attachment to material things and desires. In this light, the fear of the Lord is the fear that we are not doing enough to thank our divine Beloved for his infinite grace. We desire to nurture a loving relationship with Him because in his Presence we have life and to be far from him is to experience true pain.
It isn’t servile fear (ie the fear of getting reprimanded as in the case of a slave) but rather that of “filial” fear - the fear of offending someone that we love, of a sin against love itself, which stems from a heart that is completely self-surrendered to the Divine Will and could not bear to see or do anything contrary to God’s Divine Providence.
Fear of God is thus a healthy buffer against “self-will”.
Would I not be right in thinking that Baha’is would view “the fear of God” in a similar manner?
As you will know, the Qur’an states:
And the New Testament puts this in even more stark terms:
I should also add that Catholicism is the world’s single largest and most widespread religious body. If there ever was a global religion, surely Catholic Christianity would be it or at least high up in the league tables?
God bless you friend.
C
Carlan
Guest
At Catholic Answers, We simply share our hope…
By their covenant with David, Israel’s tribes are made one “bone and flesh” with their king. By the new covenant made in His blood, Christ becomes one flesh with the people of His Kingdom - the head of His body, the Church (see Ephesians 5:23-32).
We celebrate and renew this covenant in every Eucharist, giving thanks for our redemption, hoping for the day when we too will be with Him in Paradise.
’
We thank all others for sharing theirs.
Peace, Carlan
By their covenant with David, Israel’s tribes are made one “bone and flesh” with their king. By the new covenant made in His blood, Christ becomes one flesh with the people of His Kingdom - the head of His body, the Church (see Ephesians 5:23-32).
We celebrate and renew this covenant in every Eucharist, giving thanks for our redemption, hoping for the day when we too will be with Him in Paradise.
’
We thank all others for sharing theirs.
Peace, Carlan
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nmgauss
Guest
Prove it!You can’t make someone agree with what’s objectively true if they choose not to. Dialogue that both can agree on can be wrought up to a certain point, but after that point, it all comes down to “X is true and Y is not.”
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Lochias
Guest
…prove that I can’t make someone agree with an objective truth? How about the fact that we still have people who believe that the world is flat?
C
Carlan
Guest
Dear brother Servant,
Peace be with you.
I must say - with all due respect because you are an informed, intelligent contributor to CAF - I am not convinced by your argument above. The Baha’i Faith also teaches quite extensively regarding the “fear” of God. Baha’u’llah stated quite plainly:
Christianity has never understood this in the sense of servile fear but rather more in terms of humble “awe” and “wonder” in an obedient fashion before the Majesty of God. Christians see themselves as Sons of God through the power of the Holy Spirit. A son does not live in servile fear, rather he respectfully obeys his Father out of love and in dignified humility, as Thomas Á Kempis (1380-1471) wrote: “There is no real liberty and true joy, save in the fear of God with a quiet conscience.”
The Roman Catholic Church declares the “Fear” of God to be one of the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit. In Islam it is a foundational belief along with the Love of God for daily Muslim prayers and practice.
The Catholic Encyclopedia explains that this gift “fills us with a sovereign respect for God, and makes us dread, above all things, to offend Him.”
Is this not what Baha’u’llah said above?
Our only fear is that we should lose the Beloved of our soul through attachment to material things and desires. In this light, the fear of the Lord is the fear that we are not doing enough to thank our divine Beloved for his infinite grace. We desire to nurture a loving relationship with Him because in his Presence we have life and to be far from him is to experience true pain.
It isn’t servile fear (ie the fear of getting reprimanded as in the case of a slave) but rather that of “filial” fear - the fear of offending someone that we love, of a sin against love itself, which stems from a heart that is completely self-surrendered to the Divine Will and could not bear to see or do anything contrary to God’s Divine Providence.
Fear of God is thus a healthy buffer against “self-will”.
Would I not be right in thinking that Baha’is would view “the fear of God” in a similar manner?
As you will know, the Qur’an states:
And the New Testament puts this in even more stark terms:
I should also add that Catholicism is the world’s single largest and most widespread religious body. If there ever was a global religion, surely Catholic Christianity would be it or at least high up in the league tables?
God bless you friend.
D
daler
Guest
Eddie,
. Thank you kindly for the tone of your message, which I respect, and the questions which you pose which you feel have not been answered. I will do my best, friend, in my own words, to provide you with my own understanding.
. In short, the knowledge of God is infinite, is it not? When I first began reading the Writings of Baha’u’llah, I came upon the Hidden Words, the introduction of which describes that His is a distillation of truths previously revealed:
. “He is the Glory of Glories”
. “This is that which hath descended from the realm of glory, uttered by the tongue of power and might, and revealed unto the Prophets of old. We have taken the inner essence thereof and clothed it in the garment of brevity, as a token of grace unto the righteous, that they may stand faithful unto the Covenant of God, may fulfill in their lives His trust, and in the realm of spirit obtain the gem of Divine virtue.”
. In this He mentions the Covenant of God which, as you know, was renewed from the old to the new in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That this Covenant should be renewed at the coming of the Lord in each Dispensation is not surprising. The effect it has, however, is that of dividing the sheep from the goats. Would you agree with this in principal?
. As the knowledge of God comes to us solely through the Prophets, or Manifestations of God, in Baha’i terminology, is theologically evident, for were it otherwise, it would not be the knowledge of God.
. There is a fundamental difference in our interpretation of the words of Jesus regarding the Spirit of Truth, Who would lead us into all truth, which Jesus said we could not bare 2000 years ago. You agree with the common understanding that this was fulfilled at Pentecost, but for example, it has been stated that if indeed the disciples were given all truth at that time, why were they expecting the soon coming of Christ in their own lifetimes?
. As to the use of the pronoun “He”, as in, “When He, the Spirit of Truth comes…” there is a reference to this in one of the Tablets of Baha’u’llah. For those of us who come from a Christian background, this is a very important thing to consider:
. "Verily, He Who is the Spirit of Truth is now come to guide you unto all truth. He speaketh not as prompted by HIs own self, but as bidden by Him Who is the All-Wise. Say, this is the One Who hath glorified the Son and hath exalted His Cause. (Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p.12)
. As the knowledge of God is infinite, that which Baha’u’llah has brought is infinite knowledge of God contained in His Writings. As a Christian, I had only that which had been revealed in the Old and New Testaments. I can’t imagine having had the Old Testament only, for so much more knowledge appeared in the New.
. It is relative, as humanity grows and develops, reaching new capacity, more is given to address that greater spiritual capacity in our development. The fetus in the womb was fed through the umbilical cord from the placenta. That is like the Old Testament. Then it was born and given mother’s milk. That is like the New Testament. Now that we have reached adulthood, we have the capacity to feed upon all that the earth has to offer. That is like the Writings of Baha’u’llah, upon which I have been feeding for over thirty years, and spiritually nourished.
. I still go back and have a sip of milk. It is always sweet, but the milk is itself a testimony that there is solid food coming and, as Jesus promised, it has come to us via the Spirit of Truth. Therefore, the only question remaining is to be answered by tasting the food, chewing on it, digesting it, and measuring our growth and those around us.
. Some may prefer to remain on mother’s milk, but when hunger increases, it does not satisfy the growing appetite. Thus, we have been given feet to carry us into the fields and hands to pick ripe fruit, and strong teeth to chew upon all this new food appearing in the garden.
. God bless,
. Dale
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daler
Guest
Vouthon,
. This is why I love hearing your dialogue. There is so much to reach for higher up in the tree of understanding. On the lower branches we may find the low hanging fruit, but when we stretch out our hands and climb up the branches, there is always more fruit.
. "Thus it is recorded: “Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.” He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.” (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 255)
.
J
Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
Redemption, Salvation, Eternal Life **. . . **
When Adam first sinned, he spiritually crippled the rest of humanity, so all were born spiritually
dead. When Christ came, God in the Flesh, Sinless, he lived the perfect life, died sinless, now
he stands as our Eternal High Priest before the Father, having satisfied God’s sense of justice.
Sense of Justice? Yes, because when Adam sinned and brought Death into the world, we had
only to expect one thing: DEATH. This is where I don’t think the Baha’i are theologically stable.
Moses only brought the Law which condemns us as sinners, but Christ then came to fulfill the
Law so that anyone who believes on hims may not perish but have eternal life ( if you have the
correct belief of Jesus anyway ).
In dying, Jesus destroyed Death.
In rising, he restored Eternal Life.
When Adam first sinned, he spiritually crippled the rest of humanity, so all were born spiritually
dead. When Christ came, God in the Flesh, Sinless, he lived the perfect life, died sinless, now
he stands as our Eternal High Priest before the Father, having satisfied God’s sense of justice.
Sense of Justice? Yes, because when Adam sinned and brought Death into the world, we had
only to expect one thing: DEATH. This is where I don’t think the Baha’i are theologically stable.
Moses only brought the Law which condemns us as sinners, but Christ then came to fulfill the
Law so that anyone who believes on hims may not perish but have eternal life ( if you have the
correct belief of Jesus anyway ).
In dying, Jesus destroyed Death.
In rising, he restored Eternal Life.
N
nmgauss
Guest
So you can ask them to prove it.
P
PRmerger
Guest
alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm
Their position appears logical and reasonable to them.
meltzerboy
New member
The Law does NOT condemn us as sinners. Judaism does not even regard us as sinners, but rather as imperfect human beings (certainly as compared to G-d) who need the Law to teach us how to live according to G-d’s will and moral values. As the Talmud states: “The Torah is a tree of life for those who cling to her.” In Deuteronomy, Moses explicitly states that it is not so difficult to follow the Law, which is described in Psalms as “sweeter than honey.” Paul seems to be mistaken in the way he depicts the Law. And if we err, we seek forgiveness from G-d, who is ever merciful, as well as our fellow man, and try to do better the next time.
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daler
Guest
Judas,
. Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut on this, and if I may respond according to my understanding, I would say that what the Baha’i view is on this subject is not physical death, but spiritual death, which results from attachment to this world through our lower animal nature.
. If I have a pet dog, and he fails to obey me, he does not get the reward and remains as a wolf in the wild, feeding on rats and mice, for example, and that remains his condition. Humanity is somewhat like this with regards to sin, or disobedience to its Master. He desires to feed us with spiritual sustenance, which requires faith and obedience.
. The forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden represents going against God’s will and command, thus Adam and Eve were evicted from the Paradise of the good-pleasure of their Lord. I believe this represents humanity’s disobedience, which results in spiritual death.
. If we consider Jesus’ words, “Let the dead bury their dead”, it is clearly not waiting for physically dead people to arise from the grave and come and bury dead people. Rater, as the greatest importance was for the young man to remain with his Lord, others could take care of the less important work, even the burial or tending to his father.
. There is much symbolism in the Bible, from Genesis forward, and as it is essentially a spiritual Book, the message which I take from it has to do both with living according to God’s will and progressing spiritually, not turning away from His Prophets and Messengers, which is in reality turning away from God, which results in spiritual death. That is my understanding.
.
D
daler
Guest
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nmgauss
Guest
One thing that both Judaism and Islam do is to strive for betterment starting from an OK status quo. People need not hang their heads in shame when they are born such as is taught in Christianity.
Christianity starts with depraved humans who’s self-esteem is miserable when they are born, carrying the collective guilt of Adam in the Garden of Eden. All their life Christians are striving to remove the stigma of being original sinners. In Judaism, following the Law encourages people to uphold a high standard. Since following the Law perfectly is extremely difficult, most Jews end up sinning at one time or another.
“Modern Judaism generally teaches that humans are born sin-free and untainted, and choose to sin later and bring suffering to themselves. The concept of inherited sin is also not found in any real form in Islam.”
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PRmerger
Guest
But PR, butter pecan “IS” the best ice cream…
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P
PRmerger
Guest
The above is not the teaching of Christianity for the first 1500 years.
The faith given to the Apostles and handed on to us declares that the human person is good, created in God’s image, but flawed.
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Lochias
Guest
Yup, you certainly can. You can also wish for a solid gold rocket car.
L
Lochias
Guest
Gee, last I checked, my self-esteem had nothing to do with God has asked us, in love, to do.
Don’t know what you’ve been reading about, but it’s not Catholicism; sounds awful.
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